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Ken Holland, Post-Scotty Bowman

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#21 Zett40

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Posted 07 July 2012 - 05:09 PM

Name players drafted after our first pick since 2009 that have been significant contributors


ok ill do this
2009
Ryan O'Reilly (picked right after Landon Ferraro)
Craig Smith
2010
Justin Faulk

#22 Crymson

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Posted 07 July 2012 - 05:14 PM

If Bowman's influence were so substantial and so grand, then the Blackhawks would be a much better team right now.

Some of you are far too intent on finding someone to blame.

#23 The Axe

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Posted 07 July 2012 - 05:36 PM

Holland sucks. The Wings are not going in the right direction and we can all see that. I dont blame the old vets (bertuzzi, samuelsson, holmstrom) for wanting to play here. I blame the gm for allowing them to.

#24 Louisville

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Posted 07 July 2012 - 06:49 PM

...Seems we're just getting worse and worse, losing more and adding less, with each passing season since Bowman left. Cooincidence? I think not.


LOL so many factors you're not considering over a small amount of years it's laughable, but keep trying Columbo.


Man...people sure butt hurt Suter or Parise didn't come here. Seriously, where some of you guys come up with some of this stuff I just don't know... and I smoke weed almost everyday.

#25 Johnz96

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Posted 07 July 2012 - 06:56 PM

ok ill do this
2009
Ryan O'Reilly (picked right after Landon Ferraro)
Craig Smith
2010
Justin Faulk

That's a lot?
If any of them belonged to the Wings they would probably still be toiling in the minors

#26 Barrie

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Posted 07 July 2012 - 07:21 PM

I'll defend Holland since post Bowman. His draft picks have been been in the high 20's, or they traded their 1st round picks for two 2nd round picks. Those players take time to develop.

Also the Cap has handcuffed Holland when it comes to Free Agents, with Datsyuk, Franzen, Zetterberg, Kronwall, etc. signed, there's really nothing else he could have done until this year. When Holland's had money for Free Agents this off season, the market turned unreasonable.
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#27 Barrie

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Posted 07 July 2012 - 07:36 PM

And I know that we've got some other potentially promising prospects in the system that we've drafted since then - Cale Jarnrkrok(2010), Teemu Pulkkinen(2010), Petr Mrazek(2010) and Tomas Jurco(2011).

For your arguement, you probably shouldn't have mentioned those guys. Give it a few years, and Holland's 2010, 2011, and 2012 drafts will look great!
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#28 Zett40

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Posted 07 July 2012 - 08:24 PM

That's a lot?
If any of them belonged to the Wings they would probably still be toiling in the minors


i was actually defending Holland by showing theres probably less than 5 players, i think holland has done a great job

#29 VM1138

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Posted 07 July 2012 - 10:57 PM

People always judge Holland in a vacuum, which is ridiculous. We ccan't judge him by signings and trades alone unless we stack him up against other GMs. How many other GMs have made numerous blockbuster trades or signings that have paid off? It seems unrealstic.

2009 was successful, kind of. We lost in Game 7 in a very close game when we weren't even trying. 2010: decimated to a ridiculous degree by injuries. No reason to blow up the team. Holland looked at the roster that made it to the finals two years in a row and couldn't tell what was going on because no one played consistently.

Then there was 2011. Team still had some injuries, but it was a bit easier ot get a grasp on where the team was development-wise. The Modano signing was a widely hailed signing but didn't pan out because he ended up being lazy and injured. Had he played healthy and cared he may have done better.

So, the only year Holland (or any GM) could really judge the team was 2011-12, this last season, which was an unmitigated disaster. He tried to do somethign about it at the trade deadline, but you can't do a trade with only one partner. The Wings were already in the slide and nobody had any trade value. Come the off-season he tried (and came close) to landing the two most valued UFAs, who chose to go elsewhere for personal reasons. He did all he could and no amount of money was brining them here.

And it's been a few days since then.

When you consider all these factors it's hard to say Holland just flat out sucks. If we don't spend to the cap, we can say he potentialaly blew the off-season, but not until then.
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#30 13dangledangle

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Posted 07 July 2012 - 11:01 PM

Why is he being graded for his time post-Bowman?




? Since we are now two pages into this thread I assume someone has already defended Scotty's honor. That right there look's ridiculous. Scotty knows hockey baby.
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#31 The Axe

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Posted 07 July 2012 - 11:48 PM

Scottie was the man

#32 Crymson

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 12:15 AM

So, the only year Holland (or any GM) could really judge the team was 2011-12, this last season, which was an unmitigated disaster. He tried to do somethign about it at the trade deadline, but you can't do a trade with only one partner. The Wings were already in the slide and nobody had any trade value.


The lack of big trades at the deadline (I'm assuming that you're referring to major moves, as Quincey was a deadline deal) had nothing to do with nobody having value and everything to do with the dearth of sellers. In a seller's market, prices are high. At the trade deadline in question, prices were absurdly high, and that's why no major moves were made by anybody in the league. Any big move on Holland's part would have entailed a massive overpayment, and Smith would certainly have been part of that package; indeed, he was the piece asked for by most teams that Holland contacted (on that subject, your claim that he only tried to trade with one team is incorrect). By your measure, almost everyone failed at the deadline. And the team most active at the deadline (the Canucks) was knocked out in the first round.

#33 Buppy

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 02:04 AM

99-01, 2nd round loss, 2nd round loss, 1st round loss...
03-07, 1st round loss, 2nd round loss, 1st round loss, 3rd round loss...
Hawks 11-12, 1st round loss, 1st round loss...
Wings drafts from 95-97 (Scotty was director of player personnel), 27 players picked, 8 played at least 1 NHL game, combined total: 415gp, 17g, 47p

We were perfectly capable of some "poor" stretches even with Scotty.

It's a team game, and that goes for the front office as well. I'm sure Scotty was a positive factor, as many others in scouting and management are. All deserve thier fair share of credit, and all their fair share of blame (which IMO is none). You can't say "everyone else" deserves all the credit, but Kenny alone gets all the blame.

One thing all the Kenny bashers seem to be ignoring is the fact that what the Wings are going through now is exactly what the "parity rules" were purposely designed to cause. The draft, the cap, lowering the FA age, etc...all of that designed specifically to prevent teams from being as good as the Wings have been for as long as we have been. In Holland's tenure as GM, every single other team has missed the playoffs at least once. The Wings weren't the only good team in 98, nor were they head and shoulders above the rest of the pack. Colorado, New Jersey, Dallas...all have rebuilt (or are still trying to) since then. Other teams have come and gone.

In 08 we had Hank, Mule, Flip, Hudler, Sammy, Cleary, Stuart, and maybe more that I'm forgetting contributing at a level above thier cap hit. Then we had to start paying people. We lost some guys, and couldn't afford top FAs. When we got some cap space, long-term contracts and/or more competition for 27yo UFAs limited the players available.

Unless you're picking in the top of the first round, you can't expect recent draft picks to add anything. 25 players drafted in 2010 or 11 have played in the NHL. 17 were picked 14th or earlier. Of the other 8, only 3 have played more than 10 games. 3 out of 393. Even the 2009 class is mostly just starting to break in to NHL rosters. 49 of 197 picked 15th or later have played in the NHL, only 15 have played 40 or more games. Average contribution from the 49 so far is 37 games, ~3.8g, 11p. We also haven't had much contribution yet from the 06, 07, or 08 drafts, when Scotty was still here. And there's a lot more NHL regulars from those years now.

Much of our long-term success strategy has been reliance on veterans. That, and lacking top prospects, limit our trade options. A couple years with no cap space limited them further. This last year, when we had space and some assests we could trade, almost no one was on the market and prices for many that were rumored to be were apparently too high for anyone to pay, given the lack of trades.

In short, this is how it's supposed to work. If you think Scotty, or anyone else, would have made any real difference, you're not being reasonable.

#34 OzWing19

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 06:25 AM

Holland is lazy and he flat out friggen sucks!



#35 Johnz96

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 06:52 AM

99-01, 2nd round loss, 2nd round loss, 1st round loss...
03-07, 1st round loss, 2nd round loss, 1st round loss, 3rd round loss...
Hawks 11-12, 1st round loss, 1st round loss...
Wings drafts from 95-97 (Scotty was director of player personnel), 27 players picked, 8 played at least 1 NHL game, combined total: 415gp, 17g, 47p

We were perfectly capable of some "poor" stretches even with Scotty.

It's a team game, and that goes for the front office as well. I'm sure Scotty was a positive factor, as many others in scouting and management are. All deserve thier fair share of credit, and all their fair share of blame (which IMO is none). You can't say "everyone else" deserves all the credit, but Kenny alone gets all the blame.

One thing all the Kenny bashers seem to be ignoring is the fact that what the Wings are going through now is exactly what the "parity rules" were purposely designed to cause. The draft, the cap, lowering the FA age, etc...all of that designed specifically to prevent teams from being as good as the Wings have been for as long as we have been. In Holland's tenure as GM, every single other team has missed the playoffs at least once. The Wings weren't the only good team in 98, nor were they head and shoulders above the rest of the pack. Colorado, New Jersey, Dallas...all have rebuilt (or are still trying to) since then. Other teams have come and gone.

In 08 we had Hank, Mule, Flip, Hudler, Sammy, Cleary, Stuart, and maybe more that I'm forgetting contributing at a level above thier cap hit. Then we had to start paying people. We lost some guys, and couldn't afford top FAs. When we got some cap space, long-term contracts and/or more competition for 27yo UFAs limited the players available.

Unless you're picking in the top of the first round, you can't expect recent draft picks to add anything. 25 players drafted in 2010 or 11 have played in the NHL. 17 were picked 14th or earlier. Of the other 8, only 3 have played more than 10 games. 3 out of 393. Even the 2009 class is mostly just starting to break in to NHL rosters. 49 of 197 picked 15th or later have played in the NHL, only 15 have played 40 or more games. Average contribution from the 49 so far is 37 games, ~3.8g, 11p. We also haven't had much contribution yet from the 06, 07, or 08 drafts, when Scotty was still here. And there's a lot more NHL regulars from those years now.

Much of our long-term success strategy has been reliance on veterans. That, and lacking top prospects, limit our trade options. A couple years with no cap space limited them further. This last year, when we had space and some assests we could trade, almost no one was on the market and prices for many that were rumored to be were apparently too high for anyone to pay, given the lack of trades.

In short, this is how it's supposed to work. If you think Scotty, or anyone else, would have made any real difference, you're not being reasonable.


We haven't had any poor stretches since well before Bowman became a Wing.
Wings fans are ungrateful and spoiled

People always judge Holland in a vacuum, which is ridiculous. We ccan't judge him by signings and trades alone unless we stack him up against other GMs. How many other GMs have made numerous blockbuster trades or signings that have paid off? It seems unrealstic.

2009 was successful, kind of. We lost in Game 7 in a very close game when we weren't even trying. 2010: decimated to a ridiculous degree by injuries. No reason to blow up the team. Holland looked at the roster that made it to the finals two years in a row and couldn't tell what was going on because no one played consistently.

Then there was 2011. Team still had some injuries, but it was a bit easier ot get a grasp on where the team was development-wise. The Modano signing was a widely hailed signing but didn't pan out because he ended up being lazy and injured. Had he played healthy and cared he may have done better.

So, the only year Holland (or any GM) could really judge the team was 2011-12, this last season, which was an unmitigated disaster. He tried to do somethign about it at the trade deadline, but you can't do a trade with only one partner. The Wings were already in the slide and nobody had any trade value. Come the off-season he tried (and came close) to landing the two most valued UFAs, who chose to go elsewhere for personal reasons. He did all he could and no amount of money was brining them here.

And it's been a few days since then.

When you consider all these factors it's hard to say Holland just flat out sucks. If we don't spend to the cap, we can say he potentialaly blew the off-season, but not until then.


Huh???

#36 stevkrause

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 07:55 AM

99-01, 2nd round loss, 2nd round loss, 1st round loss...
03-07, 1st round loss, 2nd round loss, 1st round loss, 3rd round loss...
Hawks 11-12, 1st round loss, 1st round loss...
Wings drafts from 95-97 (Scotty was director of player personnel), 27 players picked, 8 played at least 1 NHL game, combined total: 415gp, 17g, 47p

We were perfectly capable of some "poor" stretches even with Scotty.

It's a team game, and that goes for the front office as well. I'm sure Scotty was a positive factor, as many others in scouting and management are. All deserve thier fair share of credit, and all their fair share of blame (which IMO is none). You can't say "everyone else" deserves all the credit, but Kenny alone gets all the blame.

One thing all the Kenny bashers seem to be ignoring is the fact that what the Wings are going through now is exactly what the "parity rules" were purposely designed to cause. The draft, the cap, lowering the FA age, etc...all of that designed specifically to prevent teams from being as good as the Wings have been for as long as we have been. In Holland's tenure as GM, every single other team has missed the playoffs at least once. The Wings weren't the only good team in 98, nor were they head and shoulders above the rest of the pack. Colorado, New Jersey, Dallas...all have rebuilt (or are still trying to) since then. Other teams have come and gone.

In 08 we had Hank, Mule, Flip, Hudler, Sammy, Cleary, Stuart, and maybe more that I'm forgetting contributing at a level above thier cap hit. Then we had to start paying people. We lost some guys, and couldn't afford top FAs. When we got some cap space, long-term contracts and/or more competition for 27yo UFAs limited the players available.

Unless you're picking in the top of the first round, you can't expect recent draft picks to add anything. 25 players drafted in 2010 or 11 have played in the NHL. 17 were picked 14th or earlier. Of the other 8, only 3 have played more than 10 games. 3 out of 393. Even the 2009 class is mostly just starting to break in to NHL rosters. 49 of 197 picked 15th or later have played in the NHL, only 15 have played 40 or more games. Average contribution from the 49 so far is 37 games, ~3.8g, 11p. We also haven't had much contribution yet from the 06, 07, or 08 drafts, when Scotty was still here. And there's a lot more NHL regulars from those years now.

Much of our long-term success strategy has been reliance on veterans. That, and lacking top prospects, limit our trade options. A couple years with no cap space limited them further. This last year, when we had space and some assests we could trade, almost no one was on the market and prices for many that were rumored to be were apparently too high for anyone to pay, given the lack of trades.

In short, this is how it's supposed to work. If you think Scotty, or anyone else, would have made any real difference, you're not being reasonable.

SPOT ON.

All I have to say about Holland and our off-season:

Here in this thread

Here in this one as well

Here in this one too

and finally

Here


Holland is a damn good GM. period.


#37 VM1138

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 08:29 AM

The lack of big trades at the deadline (I'm assuming that you're referring to major moves, as Quincey was a deadline deal) had nothing to do with nobody having value and everything to do with the dearth of sellers. In a seller's market, prices are high. At the trade deadline in question, prices were absurdly high, and that's why no major moves were made by anybody in the league. Any big move on Holland's part would have entailed a massive overpayment, and Smith would certainly have been part of that package; indeed, he was the piece asked for by most teams that Holland contacted (on that subject, your claim that he only tried to trade with one team is incorrect). By your measure, almost everyone failed at the deadline. And the team most active at the deadline (the Canucks) was knocked out in the first round.


I think you misunderstood me. You're actually agreeing with me. I only meant that Holland can't make a trade if another team isn't interested, so we can't blame him for not trading for top line players every trade deadline.
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#38 redwingfan19

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 10:06 AM

It's funny to see how quick people have turned on Kenny. I have always been critical of him but that was because he insisted on icing the softest team in the league. Now that he has started to address that he has actually gone up in my books.

He did what he could to land Suter and Parise but Im glad they chose Minnesota, we already have enough life long contracts and those one that they got were ridiculous, makes the Franzen contract look great now.

He has started to address the lack of size issue in the draft the past couple years yet also sprinkling in some very nice skill players, so he has done well in that department.

He will patch together a competitive team this year that will compete. I also like that he is starting to explore the trade market.

Don't listen to these fools Kenny, save that money for Weber/Getzlaff/Perry and the other big fish in next years FA.
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#39 Heaten

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 10:50 AM

you're entitled to your own opinion, of course. But I personally believe that having Bowman's voice in the building made a very significant difference on a lot of matters.


Bowman aint helping the Blackhawks, if anything, he's hurting them. They've made lots of questionalbe (and bad) decisions over there.

#40 Heaten

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 11:08 AM

Let's take a look at the resume' of one Ken Holland from July 2008 to now.

July 2008 is when Scotty Bowman left our then great organization to work alongside his son in the Blackhawks front-office (I'm not sure of the exact date, so I'll just include all the things that happened that month on Holland's post-Bowman resume'). There are those here who believe that Bowman's role in our organization as an advisor was not a large one; but I am certainly not one of those fans. I think that Holland having Bowman to go to for advice made a very significant difference in a lot of things, and I think that we should all at least take a look at Ken Holland's post-Bowman resume'.

Significant Draft Picks (that have played in at least one NHL game...the 2008 draft was in June):
-2009: Tomas Tatar (9 career games, 1 goal, 1 point)
-2010: Riley Sheahan (1 career game, 4 penalty minutes)
-2011:
-2012:

...10 games, 1 point and 4 penalty minutes out of our last three drafts (and 0 playoff games). That's not good. I know it takes time to develop young players in general. I know that we draft especially young players. I know that we like to take an especially long time to develop them. And I know that we've got some other potentially promising prospects in the system that we've drafted since then - Cale Jarnrkrok(2010), Teemu Pulkkinen(2010), Petr Mrazek(2010) and Tomas Jurco(2011). But still, it's not good. There are a lot of NHL teams that have drafted significant contributors late since 2009. And how much are we really expecting of the aforementioned prospects anyways? I won't hold this against Ken Holland for the reasons stated above, but his post-Bowman drafting has certainly not yet shown itself to be a positive. That much is fair.


Using that logic, Datsyuk and Zetterberg should have been busts too. Look how long it took then to crack the NHL.

Significant Free Agent Signings:
-2008/2009: M. Hossa, T. Conklin
-2009/2010: T. Bertuzzi, D. Miller, P. Eaves, J. Williams.
-2010/2011: R. Salei, M. Modano
-2011/2012: I. White
-2012/2013: D. Brunner, M. Samuelsson, J. Tootoo, J. Gustavsson

...Man, underwhelming, isn't it? The Hossa signing was a great one for sure. But it was him and his agent that sought us out, not the other way around. The Ian White signing I thought was really great, but not an enormous impact-signing. The Bertuzzi signing was okay I guess. Salei was a solid signing, for the price, as a sixth D. Miller is a solid depth guy. Eaves would be, albeit an overpaid one, if he was healthy. Conklin was okay as a backup. Williams and Modano didn't pan out. The one's this off-season we'll have to wait and see on. But man, honestly, in the last five seasons there really wasn't much, was there? Certainly a negative for Holland here thus far.


Holland was against the cap. How can he go out and sign a bunch of talent when they were against the cap? Are you suggesting Holland is allowed to break the rules?

Significant Trades:
-2008/2009:
-2009/2010:
-2010/2011: V. Leino for O. Tollefsen
-2011/2012: 1st round pick for K. Quincey
-2012/2013:

...The Leino trade was obviously a horrific one. IMO, the Quincey one was a waste of a pick as well (he's not very..good). Certainly another negative for Holland here thus far.

Results:
-2008/2009: Stanley Cup Finals Losers.
-2009/2010: Second round exit.
-2010/2011: Second round exit.
-2011/2012: First round exit.
-2012/2013:

...Seems we're just getting worse and worse, losing more and adding less, with each passing season since Bowman left. Cooincidence? I think not.


Teams are lining up to the door to trade their Stamkos' and Yandle's for Emerton and Mursak...

Your argument is cherry picking. It makes no sense to the real world that understand how cap management works. At least try to be realistic.





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