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Ken Holland, Post-Scotty Bowman

ken holland scotty bowman

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#41 haroldsnepsts

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 11:12 AM

I'll defend Holland since post Bowman. His draft picks have been been in the high 20's, or they traded their 1st round picks for two 2nd round picks. Those players take time to develop.

Also the Cap has handcuffed Holland when it comes to Free Agents, with Datsyuk, Franzen, Zetterberg, Kronwall, etc. signed, there's really nothing else he could have done until this year. When Holland's had money for Free Agents this off season, the market turned unreasonable.

I don't really agree with the premise of this thread, but I will say that honestly the free agent market is always unreasonable. To me that's no excuse. Every singly year there's guys who get grossly overpaid, then there's also some reasonable contracts and a bargain or two.

There's always going to be a few teams in a position of nothing to lose who will grossly overpay a free agent out there.

#42 The Axe

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 11:23 AM

If Holland lands Semin, that will do a lot to reestablish some credibility. Krupp and Lang? Come on, Kenny. Hatcher? Come on.

#43 esteef

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 11:27 AM

Holland fell in love with his players and didn't want to part with anyone that would actually bring in a nice return on a d-man somewhat close to being able to fill Lidstrom's spot. He waited til the last f***in minute and assumed he would just sign a big check for Suter and be done. Half-ass filling Rafalski's spot with White should've been his wake-up call to start getting someone in place for Lids eventual retirement. Now he's up s***'s creek without a Lidstrom and everybody who he needs to trade with knows it.

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#44 Yzerfan1999

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 11:37 AM

Good analysis, and hard to argue - though I am not 100% convinced it is all based on Bowman. I think after the 2009 SCF loss the whole image of the Wings organization changed from a dynasty-like team to that of a team in serious decline, and that image has grown over the past 2 years. The team is stagnant, really. Zetterberg and Datsyuk are still great players, but no one has stepped up to give the league any inkling that another superstar is on the horizon. Sure, guys like Helm and Abdelkader have developed nicely, but they are really just good bottom six guys. The Wings haven't signed anyone significant since Hossa, and the past two offseasons have proven that Detroit really isn't on young players list of desirable locations. Gone are the days when Holland can lowball Free Agents based on the fact that they have a great chance of winning a cup with the Wings. Suter and Parise chosing the Wild over the Wings exemplifies that. If Holland wants to compete in the FA market, I think he actually has to start overpaying like many of the small market teams are doing. Unfortunately, the FA ship has sailed this offseason, and now the Wings are pretty much stuck with what they have, barring some kind of miracle trade. Realistically though, who do the Wings have to offer to teams like Anaheim (Ryan), Columbus (Nash), or Calgary (Bouwmeester)? Even the trade angle doesn't look good - all these GMs would rather trade these guys to the Eastern Conference.

I don't know - I just worry that Holland and the rest of the Wings management relies way too much on this 'winning tradition' angle, which doesn't seem to be working at all. All these young guys would much rather play in up and coming markets like Pittsburgh, Phili, LA, and even Edmonton than jump on what appears to be the Wings sinking ship. I guess all I am saying is that its all about image, and the Wings image right now is not good - Lidstrom is gone, they have fallen in the standings over the last couple of years, and the old saying 'never count out the Wings' veteran leadership or experience' is starting to wear pretty thin. Maybe all that is left is really left is to hope that guys like Nyquist, Tatar, and Smith make HUGE strides this season in order to convince the league that the Wings aren't entering a dark age. That being said, adding one star player like Nash or even Semin or Bouwmeester may go a long way. We will see!
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#45 pucktividi

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 11:47 AM

Also the Cap has handcuffed Holland when it comes to Free Agents, with Datsyuk, Franzen, Zetterberg, Kronwall, etc. signed, there's really nothing else he could have done until this year. When Holland's had money for Free Agents this off season, the market turned unreasonable.


A team that's been lacking top 6 winger since Hossa left shouldn't pass on UFA's like E.Cole and Ryder for a pretty reasonable cap hit they've signed last off-season in my opinion

#46 heikks86

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 12:10 PM

Scottie was the man


yes Scottie Pippen was the man

If Holland lands Semin, that will do a lot to reestablish some credibility. Krupp and Lang? Come on, Kenny. Hatcher? Come on.


Lang was one of the best goal scorers when the Wings got him and Hatcher was one of the best d-men in the game before he hurt his knee

#47 blueadams

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 12:38 PM

Holland low-balled Schultz, Parise and Suter this off-season. No doubt about it. He screwed up. No excuses.

...Schultz was very, very interested in us. We were, I think, 1 of 2 non western-Canadien teams on his list. He talked to us. And as soon as he talked to us, he was no longer interested. He wanted a top 4 guarantee. We wouldn't give it to him. I'm sure Holland/Babcock told him something along the lines of "you'll have a great chance to compete with six other defensemen" and he said "no thanks". Kronwall, White, Ericsson, Smith and Kindl were the only defensemen on our roster at that point. you're telling me we couldn't guarantee him a spot over Smith, to at least start the season!? Even if we signed Suter, we couldn't guarantee him a spot over Ericsson!? Why the hell not just tell him that he'll get one, give him one early in the season, and let him keep it or lose it. Step one is getting him here and we blew it because we're arrogant morons.

...Parise and Suter were a package deal the entire way. We completely insulted Parise with our offer and he didn't want to come here. Hence, Suter wasn't coming here. Again, arrogant morons.


#48 heikks86

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 12:52 PM

Holland low-balled Schultz, Parise and Suter this off-season. No doubt about it. He screwed up. No excuses.

...Schultz was very, very interested in us. We were, I think, 1 of 2 non western-Canadien teams on his list. He talked to us. And as soon as he talked to us, he was no longer interested. He wanted a top 4 guarantee. We wouldn't give it to him. I'm sure Holland/Babcock told him something along the lines of "you'll have a great chance to compete with six other defensemen" and he said "no thanks". Kronwall, White, Ericsson, Smith and Kindl were the only defensemen on our roster at that point. you're telling me we couldn't guarantee him a spot over Smith, to at least start the season!? Even if we signed Suter, we couldn't guarantee him a spot over Ericsson!? Why the hell not just tell him that he'll get one, give him one early in the season, and let him keep it or lose it. Step one is getting him here and we blew it because we're arrogant morons.

...Parise and Suter were a package deal the entire way. We completely insulted Parise with our offer and he didn't want to come here. Hence, Suter wasn't coming here. Again, arrogant morons.



why should Holland have guaranteed a guy who has yet to play a minute in the NHL top 4 minutes? im glad he didnt guarantee him that. What has Schultz done to ear time over Kindl, Smith and Ericsson? You dont think Smith would be pissed if Schultz came in and got top minutes over him after he spent time in the AHL and Schultz didnt?

Edited by heikks86, 08 July 2012 - 12:54 PM.


#49 esteef

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 12:57 PM

why should Holland have guaranteed a guy who has yet to play a minute in the NHL top 4 minutes? im glad he didnt guarantee him that. What has Schultz done to ear time over Kindl, Smith and Ericsson? You dont think Smith would be pissed if Schultz came in and got top minutes over him after he spent time in the AHL and Schultz didnt?


Who gives a s*** what Smith thinks? Acquiring good players is the goal not playing patty-cake with everybody's feelings.

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#50 Crymson

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 12:58 PM

Holland low-balled Schultz, Parise and Suter this off-season. No doubt about it. He screwed up. No excuses.


There's a 100% chance that you have no idea what you're talking about. No doubt about it.

...Schultz was very, very interested in us. We were, I think, 1 of 2 non western-Canadien teams on his list. He talked to us. And as soon as he talked to us, he was no longer interested. He wanted a top 4 guarantee. We wouldn't give it to him. I'm sure Holland/Babcock told him something along the lines of "you'll have a great chance to compete with six other defensemen" and he said "no thanks". Kronwall, White, Ericsson, Smith and Kindl were the only defensemen on our roster at that point. you're telling me we couldn't guarantee him a spot over Smith, to at least start the season!? Even if we signed Suter, we couldn't guarantee him a spot over Ericsson!? Why the hell not just tell him that he'll get one, give him one early in the season, and let him keep it or lose it. Step one is getting him here and we blew it because we're arrogant morons.



Did your crystal ball tell you this? Because you otherwise haven't got a clue of the actual timetable nor of what happened behind closed doors.

There's roughly a 0% chance that none of the American teams Schultz spoke with offered him guaranteed top-four time to start the season. As such, it would seem that signing north of the border ended up being important to him.

...Parise and Suter were a package deal the entire way. We completely insulted Parise with our offer and he didn't want to come here. Hence, Suter wasn't coming here. Again, arrogant morons.


Again, you're 100% wrong. Parise openly said that he'd have signed with the Devils had Suter not signed with Minnesota.

You're obviously so into finding somebody to blame that you're willing to turn to complete fantasy in order to achieve that, completely ignoring all of the available evidence in the process. How terrible.

Edited by Crymson, 08 July 2012 - 01:02 PM.


#51 The Axe

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 02:01 PM

9 mil per for Parise and Suter would have done it.

#52 Buppy

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 02:02 PM

A team that's been lacking top 6 winger since Hossa left shouldn't pass on UFA's like E.Cole and Ryder for a pretty reasonable cap hit they've signed last off-season in my opinion

I suppose you predicted Cole and Ryder would have career years last year?

Both players were in their 30s. Ryder had two straight 18g seasons, Cole scored 18, 11(40 games), and 26 his previous 3. Niether was a bonafide top-6 winger. Neither was any better than Cleary was in 2010-11. Had Holland signed either you'd have seent he same bitching we're seeing now for the Sammy signing. And there's no guarantee they would have put up the same numbers here. It's unlikely either would have made any significant difference. Most likely you'd still be here complaining about Kenny signing even more old guys.

Besides, we were 2nd in the league in GF in 10-11, one less goal than Vancouver. We didn't "need" a top-6 winger. We don't really need one now for that matter. We have 4 good top-6 forwards, and 3-5 guys who can potentially fill a top-6 role. If we add more, great. If not, no big deal (assuming we don't trade one of the top four).

#53 mmamolo

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 02:24 PM

If Holland lands Semin, that will do a lot to reestablish some credibility. Krupp and Lang? Come on, Kenny. Hatcher? Come on.

Wow, do you have any idea how strong each of those players were at the time they were acquired? Injuries cost Hatcher and Krupp their time in DET and Lang eventually deteriorated. But all three of those guys were impact players when they were acquired.

Holland low-balled Schultz, Parise and Suter this off-season. No doubt about it. He screwed up. No excuses.

...Schultz was very, very interested in us. We were, I think, 1 of 2 non western-Canadien teams on his list. He talked to us. And as soon as he talked to us, he was no longer interested. He wanted a top 4 guarantee. We wouldn't give it to him. I'm sure Holland/Babcock told him something along the lines of "you'll have a great chance to compete with six other defensemen" and he said "no thanks". Kronwall, White, Ericsson, Smith and Kindl were the only defensemen on our roster at that point. you're telling me we couldn't guarantee him a spot over Smith, to at least start the season!? Even if we signed Suter, we couldn't guarantee him a spot over Ericsson!? Why the hell not just tell him that he'll get one, give him one early in the season, and let him keep it or lose it. Step one is getting him here and we blew it because we're arrogant morons.

...Parise and Suter were a package deal the entire way. We completely insulted Parise with our offer and he didn't want to come here. Hence, Suter wasn't coming here. Again, arrogant morons.

I'm actually embarrassed for you. That has got to be the single worst post I have ever read - and that includes all of your pointless line threads/posts
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#54 Heaten

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 02:29 PM

9 mil per for Parise and Suter would have done it.


Indeed. Sure glad Holland isn't that stupid.

#55 pucktividi

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 02:30 PM

I suppose you predicted Cole and Ryder would have career years last year?



Well no, but both have already scored 30 goals in the past,both add veteran present,both won the cup,both signed for a reasonable cap and Ken had money to sign one of them last summer.

#56 PavelValerievichDatsyuk

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 02:41 PM

Holland low-balled Schultz, Parise and Suter this off-season. No doubt about it. He screwed up. No excuses.

...Schultz was very, very interested in us. We were, I think, 1 of 2 non western-Canadien teams on his list. He talked to us. And as soon as he talked to us, he was no longer interested. He wanted a top 4 guarantee. We wouldn't give it to him. I'm sure Holland/Babcock told him something along the lines of "you'll have a great chance to compete with six other defensemen" and he said "no thanks". Kronwall, White, Ericsson, Smith and Kindl were the only defensemen on our roster at that point. you're telling me we couldn't guarantee him a spot over Smith, to at least start the season!? Even if we signed Suter, we couldn't guarantee him a spot over Ericsson!? Why the hell not just tell him that he'll get one, give him one early in the season, and let him keep it or lose it. Step one is getting him here and we blew it because we're arrogant morons.

...Parise and Suter were a package deal the entire way. We completely insulted Parise with our offer and he didn't want to come here. Hence, Suter wasn't coming here. Again, arrogant morons.


Due to ELCs Schultz got the same offer from everyone. The only way we would have got Schultz or Suter/Parise is by moving the franchise to Canada or Minnisota.

#57 Heaten

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 02:57 PM

Well no, but both have already scored 30 goals in the past,both add veteran present,both won the cup,both signed for a reasonable cap and Ken had money to sign one of them last summer.


seems easy to GM a hockey team with 20/20 hindsight vision.

#58 The Axe

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 02:57 PM

Why would it be stupid to offer Parise and Suter above what Minnesota was offering?

#59 Barrie

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 03:11 PM

Why would it be stupid to offer Parise and Suter above what Minnesota was offering?


13 years is an insane amount of term to offer a Free Agent. The next 13 years of your franchise's fate is in the hands of Suter and Parise, and honestly I 'm glad it didn't happen. We're better off without them. Also when you have top notch players like Zetterberg, Datysuk, and Kronwall on your team, what does that say to them, since Suter and Parise may not even be better than them.
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#60 GMRwings1983

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 03:17 PM

Indeed. Sure glad Holland isn't that stupid.

Indeed. Sure glad Holland isn't that stupid.


Actually, the Wings were prepared to offer Suter a pretty big contract themselves.

So Holland is that stupid.
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