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Ken Holland, Post-Scotty Bowman

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#81 Heaten

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Posted 09 July 2012 - 02:37 PM

My electricity blipped off for about 90 seconds last night. Today I have to go reset all my digital clocks around the house.

DAMN YOU KENNY HOLLAND!!!!!

FIRE KENNY NOW!!

#82 pondrocket

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Posted 09 July 2012 - 05:10 PM

Most of this is completely B.S. Scotty Bowman, as a coach (and especially as an advisor), didn't have anything to do with who got scouted, rated, and ultimately drafted by the Wings. Giving Bowman and not Holland credit for finding and drafting the likes Zetterberg, Datsyuk, Kronwall, Franzen, etc. is completely absurd. Unless Scotty was secretly flying over to Sweden and Russia to catch games, I'd say his role was rather limited.

As a coach he probably did play a fairly large part in what free agents were signed and who made it through camp and all that. But this nonsense might as well give him credit for sunshine.


Who was the GM before Holland????? Bowman. Brian Murray also made improvements prior to Bowman taking over for him.

#83 mmamolo

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Posted 09 July 2012 - 05:21 PM

It's not that Holland didn't get Suter, it's that getting Suter was apparently his only f***in' plan. And now he's scrambling to fill a hole he knew was coming for years because his brilliant plan of waiting til the last minute didn't work out. But don't let that stop all the Holland poodles from defending him.

esteef

Posters like you fail to realize that Holland's plan was to have Smith ready for a full time spot this year and adding Quincey at the deadline. Just because a lot of posters don't like Quincey or are scared because Smith is a rookie doesn't mean that Holland didn't plan. You, and a lot of other posters, are scared of the Wings current d-corps because it's not as name worthy as it obviously was for the last 20 years with Lidstrom. But Holland and co. felt that they added a top-4 guy in Quincey and then hoped to add Suter. It wasn't Suter or bust for them...even if it was for you.

The Wings brass feel that both Ericsson and Quincey will play to top 4 abilities this season and they can be added to Kronwall and White for a competitive top 4. They also like both Kindl and Smith as their 5/6. Just because you happen to disagree with their assessment of where these players fit into the depth chart doesn't mean you should be making outrageous claims like Holland didn't plan and is now scrambling.

Edited by mmamolo, 09 July 2012 - 05:21 PM.

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#84 kipwinger

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Posted 09 July 2012 - 05:27 PM

Who was the GM before Holland????? Bowman. Brian Murray also made improvements prior to Bowman taking over for him.


Fact: Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Filppula, Kronwall, Franzen, Quincey, Eriksson, Helm, Howard, Hudler, Abdelkader, Smith, and Nyquist were all scouted and drafted by people not named Scotty Bowman. Datsyuk was the first of those listed to be drafted (1998). Ken Holland was named sole GM of the team in 1997. Scotty Bowman didn't have s*** to do with it.

Nobody is trying to undermine what Scotty did for the team, but to suggest that Holland has not drafted anyone worth a damn during his tenure, and that all the success the team has seen under Holland should really be given to Bowman is retarded.

Bowman was the GM from 1993-1997. Here's a quick look at his most prominant drafts:
Anders Eriksson
Norm Maracle
Mathieu Dandenault
Tomas Holmstrom
Yuri Butsayev

Additionally, Yzerman, Osgood, Fedorov, Konstantinov, Kozlov, Primeau, McCarty, Lidstrom, and Lapointe were all drafted before Scotty joined the organization.

Your honor, I rest my case.

Edited by kipwinger, 09 July 2012 - 05:42 PM.

GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#85 esteef

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Posted 09 July 2012 - 05:37 PM

Posters like you fail to realize that Holland's plan was to have Smith ready for a full time spot this year and adding Quincey at the deadline. Just because a lot of posters don't like Quincey or are scared because Smith is a rookie doesn't mean that Holland didn't plan. You, and a lot of other posters, are scared of the Wings current d-corps because it's not as name worthy as it obviously was for the last 20 years with Lidstrom. But Holland and co. felt that they added a top-4 guy in Quincey and then hoped to add Suter. It wasn't Suter or bust for them...even if it was for you.

The Wings brass feel that both Ericsson and Quincey will play to top 4 abilities this season and they can be added to Kronwall and White for a competitive top 4. They also like both Kindl and Smith as their 5/6. Just because you happen to disagree with their assessment of where these players fit into the depth chart doesn't mean you should be making outrageous claims like Holland didn't plan and is now scrambling.


If what you said were true then Holland wouldn't have needed to go after Suter at all right? I mean if the plan all along was to use Big E and Quincey then why all the fuss about Suter or Garrison or Schultz or even throwing the offer to Salo? Kenny struck out with Suter and he's know trying to pull a top 4 d-man out of his ass at the last minute. A top 4 of Kronner-White-Big E and Quincey is bools*** considering the time, assets and money Holland had to piece together something better. He can still lay a golden egg and bring in a top d-man, but now it'll probably cost him dearly. We'll probably be getting another Lilja.

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#86 mmamolo

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Posted 09 July 2012 - 05:50 PM

If what you said were true then Holland wouldn't have needed to go after Suter at all right? I mean if the plan all along was to use Big E and Quincey then why all the fuss about Suter or Garrison or Schultz or even throwing the offer to Salo?

Wrong. When a player that Holland and co. feel fits their system is available they go after him. So if the Wings signed Suter or Garrison or Schultz it would just supplement the depth chart. Sure, it would push some guys further down the depth chart but that doesn't mean that the plan wasn't to go with the roster they have if they couldn't add the right piece. Now you'll see the WIngs add a veteran defenseman this summer.

Kenny struck out with Suter and he's know trying to pull a top 4 d-man out of his ass at the last minute. A top 4 of Kronner-White-Big E and Quincey is bools*** considering the time, assets and money Holland had to piece together something better. He can still lay a golden egg and bring in a top d-man, but now it'll probably cost him dearly. We'll probably be getting another Lilja.


Just because you don't like the plan that Holland has/had doesn't mean there was no plan.
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#87 esteef

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Posted 09 July 2012 - 05:58 PM

Wrong. When a player that Holland and co. feel fits their system is available they go after him. So if the Wings signed Suter or Garrison or Schultz it would just supplement the depth chart. Sure, it would push some guys further down the depth chart but that doesn't mean that the plan wasn't to go with the roster they have if they couldn't add the right piece. Now you'll see the WIngs add a veteran defenseman this summer.



Just because you don't like the plan that Holland has/had doesn't mean there was no plan.


I didn't say he didn't have a plan, I said his plan sucks.

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#88 The Axe

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Posted 09 July 2012 - 05:59 PM

Hakkan Andersson found all our euro talent.

#89 Heaten

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Posted 09 July 2012 - 06:10 PM

If what you said were true then Holland wouldn't have needed to go after Suter at all right? I mean if the plan all along was to use Big E and Quincey then why all the fuss about Suter or Garrison or Schultz or even throwing the offer to Salo? Kenny struck out with Suter and he's know trying to pull a top 4 d-man out of his ass at the last minute. A top 4 of Kronner-White-Big E and Quincey is bools*** considering the time, assets and money Holland had to piece together something better. He can still lay a golden egg and bring in a top d-man, but now it'll probably cost him dearly. We'll probably be getting another Lilja.

esteef


Holland traded the 1st for Quincey as an 'insurance' policy. *IF* plan 1A,2A, or 3A don't pan out, there's still plan 1B, 2B, and 3B plan.

Quincey, White, and Ericsson are all capable top4 defensemen. Kronwall is a legit top 2. Smith could be utilized in a way to QQ the powerplay. I would like to see Holland nabb another top 4, there's still trade deadline, or maybe the cap goes down and teams have fire sales, but as-is, the team is a playoff team and perfectly capable of winning.

Edited by Heaten, 09 July 2012 - 06:11 PM.


#90 mmamolo

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Posted 09 July 2012 - 06:15 PM

, it's that getting Suter was apparently his only f***in' plan. .

esteef

I didn't say he didn't have a plan, I said his plan sucks.

esteef


You said his only plan was getting Suter. So you inferred he had no other plan and that is what I am referring to
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#91 jollymania

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Posted 09 July 2012 - 06:30 PM

Just go follow Minnesota or whatever team you think is doing better than us than, everyone is sick of these stupid f@#$ing posts.

agreed, become a wild fan, they are so cool with those big signings.
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#92 The Axe

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Posted 09 July 2012 - 07:27 PM

While i agree that our d isnt as bad as everyone thinks, our goalie is not as good as everyone thinks. Ive heard it from a very reputable former nhl goalie that Howard isnt even considered top 15 in the league.

#93 kipwinger

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Posted 09 July 2012 - 07:35 PM

While i agree that our d isnt as bad as everyone thinks, our goalie is not as good as everyone thinks. Ive heard it from a very reputable former nhl goalie that Howard isnt even considered top 15 in the league.


How is he not? Sixth in the league in goals against average, tied for ten in save percentage, and tied for fifth in wins. I think making it into the top ten in every major goaltending category automatically makes you one of the top 15 (at least) goalies in the league. Unless you'd like to chalk all of that up to the fact that he played on the team with the seventh best defense in the league last season.

GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#94 The Axe

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Posted 09 July 2012 - 07:41 PM

He plays for a good team

#95 Echolalia

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Posted 09 July 2012 - 07:52 PM

I'm really having difficulty wrapping my head around why (or how) so many posters are buying into Scotty running the show from his advisor position, and assuming Holland is actually some sort of dunce who somehow is capable of driving a team into the ground in three years.

#96 kipwinger

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Posted 09 July 2012 - 07:53 PM

He plays for a good team


Lundqvist, Rhinne, Quick, Smith, Elliott, Halak, Schnieder, Luongo, and Fleury all play for good teams. How is Jimmy any different? This is the same backward logic used by people who hated on Osgood. "Osgood played for a good team, he wasn't that good". As if Patrick Roy and Martin Brodeur were on garbage teams their whole careers.

GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#97 The Axe

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Posted 09 July 2012 - 08:20 PM

He plays for a good team

#98 Carman

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Posted 09 July 2012 - 08:22 PM

He plays for a good team


Thought the Red Wings sucked since Holland started making decisions?

#99 kipwinger

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Posted 09 July 2012 - 09:01 PM

He plays for a good team


"I heard from a very reputable former nhl goalie" that your posts lack supporting evidence and therefore any sort of credibility whatsoever. Perhaps if you were on a good team you could ride the coattails of the guys around you and between the group, finally fashion a criticism of Jimmy Howard that wasn't entirely founded upon hearsay and your own baseless and irrational disdain for him...

that is, if you played for a good team.

Edited by kipwinger, 09 July 2012 - 09:02 PM.

GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#100 VM1138

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Posted 10 July 2012 - 09:05 AM

Holland traded the 1st for Quincey as an 'insurance' policy. *IF* plan 1A,2A, or 3A don't pan out, there's still plan 1B, 2B, and 3B plan.

Quincey, White, and Ericsson are all capable top4 defensemen. Kronwall is a legit top 2. Smith could be utilized in a way to QQ the powerplay. I would like to see Holland nabb another top 4, there's still trade deadline, or maybe the cap goes down and teams have fire sales, but as-is, the team is a playoff team and perfectly capable of winning.


I think you're overstating the case or Ericsson. He's become a somewhat solid d-man, but I still would hesitate to put him in the top 4. Maybe 4th place when he's one a roll.
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