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Ken Holland, Post-Scotty Bowman

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#101 Heaten

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Posted 10 July 2012 - 11:38 AM

I think you're overstating the case or Ericsson. He's become a somewhat solid d-man, but I still would hesitate to put him in the top 4. Maybe 4th place when he's one a roll.


He's much, much better than the other options. Hell, some people on LGWs wanted to guarantee Schulz top 4 minutes.... and he's never played a day in the NHL.

I'll take Ericsson on the top 4 over that Schulz kid.

And for the record, I though Ericsson looked better than Stuart at the end of the season last year.

#102 Dave

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Posted 10 July 2012 - 11:42 AM

He's much, much better than the other options. Hell, some people on LGWs wanted to guarantee Schulz top 4 minutes.... and he's never played a day in the NHL.

I'll take Ericsson on the top 4 over that Schulz kid.

And for the record, I though Ericsson looked better than Stuart at the end of the season last year.


Ericsson looked great at the end of the year. His D looked better than Kronwall's most of the time. There was that 1 game where Lids was out and E played on the top pair and Detroit got their asses handed to them. He looked bad, but so did the rest of the team, so I don't know if it was a good example or not.

#103 IllinoisRedWingsFan

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 12:38 AM

I think he has done okay however it hasn't been great. Heck at least were not Edmonton. With that being said regarding the drafts I will withhold judgement on evaluating those until 2013-2014. Regarding this off season who at are you going to do when the two prized picks wanted to go home???? NOTHING! Their has GOT to be a trade soon.

#104 blueadams

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 02:08 AM

Here's a new way to evaluate Holland's performance here since Bowman left: How has he replaced what we've lost from the 2008 Stanley Cup Championship team he inherited? It might not be an all-inclusive method of evaluation, but it's certainly an angle that's at least worth looking at.

*Keep in mind that we're talking about the player we had IN 2008...and then what we have now.

Forwards:

J. Hudler----------D. Brunner. I'll have to see it to believe it, but from what we've been told, Brunner now shouldn't be much of a drop-off from Hudler of 08.

T. Holmstrom----------G. Nyquist. Very, very different players, but I really, really like Nyquist, so I'll dare to again say "not much of a drop-off."
K. Draper----------J. Abdelkader. Abby might never be what Draper was, but isn't much worse now than Draper was in 08...aside from faceoffs. Not much of a drop-off.
D. Drake----------T. Bertuzzi. Again, very different players. Drake did some things Bert doesn't. Bert does some things Drake didn't. Not much of a drop-off.
D. McCarty----------J. Tootoo. Tootoo's not the intimidator McCarty was, even in 08. McCarty wasn't the skater that Tootoo is. Not much of a drop-off.
K. Maltby----------D. Miller. See the Draper/Abdelkader comparision. Not much of a drop-off.
M. Hartigan----------P. Eaves. Probably the one instance amongst the forwards of actual improvement. Too bad it's the 14th forward.

Defensemen:

N. Lidstrom----------J. Ericsson. I won't even dignify this by attempting to compare.
B. Rafalski----------I. White. Not even close.
B. Stuart----------K. Quincey. Not really close.
A. Lilja----------B. Smith. Perhaps an improvement?
B. Lebda----------J. Kindl. How in the world do you not improve over Lebda in 4 seasons?
C. Chelios----------???


Goalies:

C. Osgood----------J. Howard. Not quite there yet. But not that far off either.
D. Hasek----------J. Gustavsson. Backup goalies don't matter enough to get into this one.


In general:

1) The forward group remains more or less the same, though older. I'd say that age has had more of a negative impact than development has had a positive impact.
2) The defensive group has been completely wiped out and not even close to replaced in most cases.
3) The goalies are more or less the same.


So, there you have it. That's what Ken Holland's done. Hasn't improved anything since he's been here. Has let us get A LOT worse on the back end. That's it. All there is to it. Bottom line. Period.

#105 Johnz96

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 03:47 AM

Here's a new way to evaluate Holland's performance here since Bowman left: How has he replaced what we've lost from the 2008 Stanley Cup Championship team he inherited? It might not be an all-inclusive method of evaluation, but it's certainly an angle that's at least worth looking at.

*Keep in mind that we're talking about the player we had IN 2008...and then what we have now.

Forwards:

J. Hudler----------D. Brunner. I'll have to see it to believe it, but from what we've been told, Brunner now shouldn't be much of a drop-off from Hudler of 08.

T. Holmstrom----------G. Nyquist. Very, very different players, but I really, really like Nyquist, so I'll dare to again say "not much of a drop-off."
K. Draper----------J. Abdelkader. Abby might never be what Draper was, but isn't much worse now than Draper was in 08...aside from faceoffs. Not much of a drop-off.
D. Drake----------T. Bertuzzi. Again, very different players. Drake did some things Bert doesn't. Bert does some things Drake didn't. Not much of a drop-off.
D. McCarty----------J. Tootoo. Tootoo's not the intimidator McCarty was, even in 08. McCarty wasn't the skater that Tootoo is. Not much of a drop-off.
K. Maltby----------D. Miller. See the Draper/Abdelkader comparision. Not much of a drop-off.
M. Hartigan----------P. Eaves. Probably the one instance amongst the forwards of actual improvement. Too bad it's the 14th forward.

Defensemen:

N. Lidstrom----------J. Ericsson. I won't even dignify this by attempting to compare.
B. Rafalski----------I. White. Not even close.
B. Stuart----------K. Quincey. Not really close.
A. Lilja----------B. Smith. Perhaps an improvement?
B. Lebda----------J. Kindl. How in the world do you not improve over Lebda in 4 seasons?
C. Chelios----------???


Goalies:

C. Osgood----------J. Howard. Not quite there yet. But not that far off either.
D. Hasek----------J. Gustavsson. Backup goalies don't matter enough to get into this one.


In general:

1) The forward group remains more or less the same, though older. I'd say that age has had more of a negative impact than development has had a positive impact.
2) The defensive group has been completely wiped out and not even close to replaced in most cases.
3) The goalies are more or less the same.


So, there you have it. That's what Ken Holland's done. Hasn't improved anything since he's been here. Has let us get A LOT worse on the back end. That's it. All there is to it. Bottom line. Period.

Smith is a big improvement over Lilja, given enough time (esp on the PP) and if he doesn't get injured he should be a Calder candidate and our second best d-man by season's end. His inexperience will obviously lead to rookie mistakes but he will learn from them and it might result in a few more goals against but there is an advantage to that other than being a learning experience for Smith in that it will result in Howard's stats not being quite as good as they would had we acquired Suter, so he will be more affordable to re-sign
Quincey is comparable to Stuart he is not quite as physical (although he is physical as well) but is more skilled and a better skater. Stuart made a lot of mistakes out there and is overrated by many Wings' fans (but still a very good top 4 d-man)
Kronwall is much better on the left and with Lidstom's departure, I think he will finally establish himself as an elite d-man as long as he doesn't get injured.
As it stands even if Kronwall breaks out, Smith proves to be Calder candidate and Quincey is much better than some believe I do agree there is a drop off on D but I don't think it's nearly as much as most would think.
We will be able to give youngsters an opportunity to show what they got (Nyquist, Tatar (he was one of if not THE best players on the ice in the 2 games against Canada at the WC) and Smith are ready)
And we have cap space to do something significant if the right opportunity presents itself, if not we will have space to pursue one of the UFAs in next years bumper crop which should yield some big physical skilled players.
I think not overpaying for Suter and Parise will enable us to eventually get the right players we need to be a Cup favorite again and continue our domination of a league that strives for parity (and other than the Red Wings this parity has been achieved)
I would also try to land Svitov who's contract with Ufa in the KHL expires at the end of their season
I think even without a significant acquisition (although i do believe we will make one or more before the season's end if not before it's start) we could still challenge for a Cup.
As much as so many people whine about our playoff failure since we last won the Cup 4 years ago, I don't think any team has won as many playoff games or series as we have in that time frame

Edited by Johnz96, 11 July 2012 - 05:06 AM.


#106 FlashyG

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 09:52 AM

So now he inherited the team in 98?

He had been the GM for an entire decade at that point and still you wont give him any credit? There was a grand total of 2 players on the 98 team that Holland didn't personally draft as the GM, and the 2 he didn't select himself were selected when he was the Assistant GM.

As far as the aura of Bowman goes, why hasn't Chicago had an onslaught of Draft success since Bowman got there? Using your ridiculously short time span to evaluate a GM's draft success, Chicago hasn't faired any better than Detroit. They've had 2 players drafted since 2008 that have made the NHL, Marcus Kruger and Dylan Olsen and their current prospect pool is ranked behind Detroits. Bowman was never a GM that built through the draft, he would trade all his picks for roster players like he used to do.

Bowman is the greatest coach in the history of the game but he's not even close to as good of a GM, never was. Holland however is unquestionably a Hall of Fame caliber GM. (probably a pretty s***ty coach however)

#107 kipwinger

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 10:24 AM

Here's a new way to evaluate Holland's performance here since Bowman left: How has he replaced what we've lost from the 2008 Stanley Cup Championship team he inherited? It might not be an all-inclusive method of evaluation, but it's certainly an angle that's at least worth looking at.

*Keep in mind that we're talking about the player we had IN 2008...and then what we have now.

Forwards:

J. Hudler----------D. Brunner. I'll have to see it to believe it, but from what we've been told, Brunner now shouldn't be much of a drop-off from Hudler of 08.

T. Holmstrom----------G. Nyquist. Very, very different players, but I really, really like Nyquist, so I'll dare to again say "not much of a drop-off."
K. Draper----------J. Abdelkader. Abby might never be what Draper was, but isn't much worse now than Draper was in 08...aside from faceoffs. Not much of a drop-off.
D. Drake----------T. Bertuzzi. Again, very different players. Drake did some things Bert doesn't. Bert does some things Drake didn't. Not much of a drop-off.
D. McCarty----------J. Tootoo. Tootoo's not the intimidator McCarty was, even in 08. McCarty wasn't the skater that Tootoo is. Not much of a drop-off.
K. Maltby----------D. Miller. See the Draper/Abdelkader comparision. Not much of a drop-off.
M. Hartigan----------P. Eaves. Probably the one instance amongst the forwards of actual improvement. Too bad it's the 14th forward.

Defensemen:

N. Lidstrom----------J. Ericsson. I won't even dignify this by attempting to compare.
B. Rafalski----------I. White. Not even close.
B. Stuart----------K. Quincey. Not really close.
A. Lilja----------B. Smith. Perhaps an improvement?
B. Lebda----------J. Kindl. How in the world do you not improve over Lebda in 4 seasons?
C. Chelios----------???


Goalies:

C. Osgood----------J. Howard. Not quite there yet. But not that far off either.
D. Hasek----------J. Gustavsson. Backup goalies don't matter enough to get into this one.


In general:

1) The forward group remains more or less the same, though older. I'd say that age has had more of a negative impact than development has had a positive impact.
2) The defensive group has been completely wiped out and not even close to replaced in most cases.
3) The goalies are more or less the same.


So, there you have it. That's what Ken Holland's done. Hasn't improved anything since he's been here. Has let us get A LOT worse on the back end. That's it. All there is to it. Bottom line. Period.


You say Holland "inherited" the team as if that was a well established fact. Let's look at what Ken Holland inherited in 2008 shall we? Ken Holland drafted the lion's share of the talent on the 2008 team. Zetterberg, Datsyuk, Hudler, Franzen, Filppula, Quincey, Ericsson, Abdelkader, and Kronwall were all Hollands picks. Samuelsson, Cleary, Stuart, Lilja, and Rafalski were all Ken Holland signings. Additionally, Osgood, Lidstrom, Holmstrom, Drake, and McCarty were drafted before Bowman came to the team, and in the case of Drake and McCarty, re-signed under Holland.

The only notable people on the 2008 team that came from Scotty's tenure were Chelios, Hasek, Draper, and Maltby. That's right, the core components that Holland "inherited" were a backup goalie (in the playoffs), a sixth defenseman, and two fourth line grinders.

No need for personal attacks when the facts fly so contrary to every statement you make

Edited by kipwinger, 11 July 2012 - 10:29 AM.

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Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 






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