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How bad are we if our roster is now finalized?


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#221 SwedeLundin77

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 11:21 PM

Why name names? So you can thumb your nose at every single one of them and come up with ficticious reasons as to why a trade or UFA signing that never happened anyway wouldn't have worked? I don't need nor want your agreement that much. And the analogy sucks because I it's unnecessary, I understand what you mean, I just disagree.

esteef


You mad bro?

#222 esteef

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 11:32 PM

You mad bro?


Not at all.

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#223 Johnz96

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 01:10 AM

Martian Hossa says hi... Now, re-signing him instead of Franzen is probably the only case one can make that I'll agree Holland got wrong, but that's still a big name signing...

The only reason you think the analogy sucks is because it's dead on, and you can't refute it...

Its fine to be pissed this off season hasn't gone the way we all wanted, but projecting and looking for someone to blame over details out of their control is ridiculous... Also, give me one example of a player in last years FA market worth their contract then? The last two years have been crap markets, and before that, we were right up against the cap AND coming off of back to back SCF... So, you were saying?

We didn't have enough cap space to sign Hossa.
Regardless of what most people think of him right now, based on his stats (and that is the basis for a player's contactual value) Franzen is a bargain

Edited by Johnz96, 12 July 2012 - 01:40 AM.


#224 Johnz96

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 01:18 AM

So to summarize, Kenny's too cheap to get the players he really needs. No one's saying blow the whole f***in' wad every year, that's just your tired response to any Holland criticism whatsoever. I'm tired of seeing retreads and reclamation projects, and then a bunch of excuses on why he didn't do better in acquiring guys. The "everybody's too expensive" excuse is starting to wear thin, especially when he's holding 16 miliion dollars.

esteef

Cheapness has nothing to do with it it's not his money and Illitch wants him to spend it. They're goal is winning the Cup and overpaying for players just because we have the cap space would make it harder to achieve that goal.

#225 Johnz96

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 01:39 AM

I'm sorry but that's the kind of mentality that got us into this pickle we're in.

We're sitting pretty. In order to address needs most teams will have to create other ones to do so.
When spending big bucks it's gotta be the right guy at the right price.
I think we overpayed a little for Tootoo and Gustavsson and I don't understand the Samuelsson signing but the biggest coup is that we didn't sign Parise and/or Suter to those ridiculous contracts, not throwing a crazy offer at Semin and not overpaying for the other defensemen that were available, I think by season's end Smith will be better than most if not all them for a lot less, an opportunity he never would have had had we signed one of them

#226 Carman

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 02:04 AM

I think we overpayed a little for Tootoo and Gustavsson and I don't understand the Samuelsson signing but the biggest coup is that we didn't sign Parise and/or Suter to those ridiculous contracts, not throwing a crazy offer at Semin and not overpaying for the other defensemen that were available, I think by season's end Smith will be better than most if not all them for a lot less, an opportunity he never would have had had we signed one of them


I agree for the most part, but i feel it's a little hypocritical to call Parise/Suter contracts ridiculous when Holland was offering them close to those offers. In my opinion those two where the only players worth that long term investment in this free agent class and I would not have had a problem with Holland doing it. You are going to spend more in free agency, that's the trade off for not having to give up assets. Good contract deals are mostly due to ELC's not really free agent signings, there are a few but they are rare. As long as you invest wisely, which I believe Parise/Suter are pretty good bets to continue having very good NHL careers you are looking good for the future.

Suter/Parise where the only pieces I was sold on this offseason to sign for the long term, Semin would have a be a max 4 year deal even then I'd be hesitant. Doan is 35+ so his deal should be short.

I just don't get why people are freaking out, Holland is doing what he can, and the team has a ton of assets, cap space, and very good core of NHL pieces with Stanley Cup experience. This is far far from a bad situation. I don't get what people wanted him to do, you can't just make a move to appease people for the short term. There hasn't been a defenseman switch a team other than Brent Burns/Ryan Suter who I would want to make a commitment to for a long period of time, and the former cost the Sharks their best prospect (Coyle), Setoguchi who is on a very good deal and solid top 6 forward, and a first round pick. I would have rathered the Red Wings gamble on the free agency first than shuffle the team while Lidstrom is still playing and hasn't announced his retirement.

Now the Red Wings are exploring the trade market, they have the assets, they have the cap space, it's just a matter of time and finding the right move, not just any move.

/late night rambling off.

Edited by Carman, 12 July 2012 - 02:11 AM.


#227 Crymson

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 02:24 AM

I agree for the most part, but i feel it's a little hypocritical to call Parise/Suter contracts ridiculous when Holland was offering them close to those offers.


Holland's offer for Parise was not as high as the one he tendered to Suter.

Why name names? So you can thumb your nose at every single one of them and come up with ficticious reasons as to why a trade or UFA signing that never happened anyway wouldn't have worked?


This sounds like the same cop-out you've been using since Suter was signed. You've constantly said that Holland should have made some move or another to secure a good replacement for Lidstrom, but you've just as constantly refused to give any examples of what you feel he should have done. Please give some, as your behavior is strongly indicating that you don't actually have any at all.

I'm sorry but that's the kind of mentality that got us into this pickle we're in.


Your mentality regarding the Wings is and always has been "I want new toys now!" This has been made clear at every offseason and trade deadline since I've been on these forums. While it indeed is unwise to focus on the future to the exception of the now, it is just as unwise to--as you do--focus entirely on the now to the exception of the future. We might still be in "this pickle" (though it seems you feel that the situation is far more dire than I do) had Holland doled out bad contracts for the sake of doing so in the last two offseasons, and that also might have placed the team into another pickle entirely.

Edited by Crymson, 12 July 2012 - 02:29 AM.


#228 Johnz96

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 03:12 AM

I agree for the most part, but i feel it's a little hypocritical to call Parise/Suter contracts ridiculous when Holland was offering them close to those offers. In my opinion those two where the only players worth that long term investment in this free agent class and I would not have had a problem with Holland doing it. You are going to spend more in free agency, that's the trade off for not having to give up assets. Good contract deals are mostly due to ELC's not really free agent signings, there are a few but they are rare. As long as you invest wisely, which I believe Parise/Suter are pretty good bets to continue having very good NHL careers you are looking good for the future.

Suter/Parise where the only pieces I was sold on this offseason to sign for the long term, Semin would have a be a max 4 year deal even then I'd be hesitant. Doan is 35+ so his deal should be short.

I just don't get why people are freaking out, Holland is doing what he can, and the team has a ton of assets, cap space, and very good core of NHL pieces with Stanley Cup experience. This is far far from a bad situation. I don't get what people wanted him to do, you can't just make a move to appease people for the short term. There hasn't been a defenseman switch a team other than Brent Burns/Ryan Suter who I would want to make a commitment to for a long period of time, and the former cost the Sharks their best prospect (Coyle), Setoguchi who is on a very good deal and solid top 6 forward, and a first round pick. I would have rathered the Red Wings gamble on the free agency first than shuffle the team while Lidstrom is still playing and hasn't announced his retirement.

Now the Red Wings are exploring the trade market, they have the assets, they have the cap space, it's just a matter of time and finding the right move, not just any move.

/late night rambling off.

I think he stretched it a lot farther than he wanted to do feeling the pressure from the fan base (they pay the bills after all) to and was probably relieved that Minnesota offered even more

#229 Wing Across The Pond

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 05:43 AM

This sounds like the same cop-out you've been using since Suter was signed. You've constantly said that Holland should have made some move or another to secure a good replacement for Lidstrom, but you've just as constantly refused to give any examples of what you feel he should have done. Please give some, as your behavior is strongly indicating that you don't actually have any at all.


For one I don't think Holland expected the retirement this season. Yes he should have been planning a replacement but maybe giving Smith time this year was part of that. I think Lids' ankle injury forced his hand a bit and then Holland was feeling the strain and thought he needed to sign someone for this season. I would go out and say that most of us here probably couldn't give a definitive name to replace him because we'd all make snap decisions on what this team needs NOW without giving it all the though a GM necessarily would to assess the best possible solution. For example I wouldn't be able to give you a good name to replace Lidstrom, because I haven't seen our D in action yet and found the areas where they greatly need improving... if at all any of this makes sense? :confused:

We're sitting pretty. In order to address needs most teams will have to create other ones to do so.
When spending big bucks it's gotta be the right guy at the right price.
I think we overpayed a little for Tootoo and Gustavsson and I don't understand the Samuelsson signing but the biggest coup is that we didn't sign Parise and/or Suter to those ridiculous contracts, not throwing a crazy offer at Semin and not overpaying for the other defensemen that were available, I think by season's end Smith will be better than most if not all them for a lot less, an opportunity he never would have had had we signed one of them

Cheapness has nothing to do with it it's not his money and Illitch wants him to spend it. They're goal is winning the Cup and overpaying for players just because we have the cap space would make it harder to achieve that goal.

No, he'll spend when it makes sense, not chase and over pay for above average players, or mid range guys, just because we have money or cap space, thus hand cuffing our team...

There were only two prizes this year, THAT'S IT

They chose to play in Minnesota together, and for a ridiculous amount at that, and it didn't mater what anyone else offered them, because their minds were already made up...

No one else in this FA class is worth the money, and more importantly, the term they've been getting... Other teams can continue to f' themselves with horrible contracts (Ville Leino says hello), I'll just sit back and be grateful the horrendous arm-chair GM's on LGW don't run this team, and we have someone like Holland to know the difference...

So to summarize, Kenny's too cheap to get the players he really needs. No one's saying blow the whole f***in' wad every year, that's just your tired response to any Holland criticism whatsoever. I'm tired of seeing retreads and reclamation projects, and then a bunch of excuses on why he didn't do better in acquiring guys. The "everybody's too expensive" excuse is starting to wear thin, especially when he's holding 16 miliion dollars.

esteef


Lumped these 4 quotes together because they all make good points. We didn't overpay this FA but still have a lot of cash left over. I agree, the contracts that were given to Suter and Parise were pretty horrible considering their length and price and I'm glad we didn't get stuck in that mess. Yet I also agree with esteef that we need to get someone big. I would say, however, that for the money that's on the table for players these days more ARE actually too expensive. Suter and Parise are good but they're not elite, best players in the league. Therefore I'm glad we didn't sign them to those levels of contract. I would offer it to Weber next year though, a long term, high money deal, as he is a Top 5 premier defenceman in this league and will continue to be for years to come. THAT, I think, is the difference with keeping the money and bringing in players to fill the gaps, and dolling out a large contract. They have to be worth the money when they're pushing 40 like Lids has been. I know it's incomparable with other defencemen in this era but he was worth the money after all those years. Much like Brodeur is worth the $5m or whatever it was that he got, because he's still a game changer even into his twilight. Suter and Parise wont be IMO, Weber could well be.

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#230 stevkrause

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 06:55 AM

Cheapness has nothing to do with it it's not his money and Illitch wants him to spend it. They're goal is winning the Cup and overpaying for players just because we have the cap space would make it harder to achieve that goal.

I just want to state that I liked the content of your post, not your improper use of the often confused words: "There, their, they're"
hint, it should have been the middle one
:tounge:

just giving you a hard time by the way and busting chops, I realize this is a message board and not an English class :colgate:

All I have to say about Holland and our off-season:

Here in this thread

Here in this one as well

Here in this one too

and finally

Here


Holland is a damn good GM. period.


#231 ogreslayer

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 06:57 AM

Oh, and it deeply pains me to admit this about my childhood idol and my favorite player of all time... but...

Yzerman hasn't done that great in Tampa, yet people are willing to anoint him the next coming of Lord Stanley himself, remove a GM who is at least partially responsible for 4 cups in the last 15 years, and give him the reigns, just because he makes more moves (on a team that failed to make the playoffs last year mind you)... Grass is greener mentality if there's ever been one...

And I would bet good money that he's not even the front runner to replace Kenny at this point. That would be one Mr. Jim Nill unless he jumps at another GM spot in the next couple-few years.

#232 stevkrause

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 07:27 AM

And I would bet good money that he's not even the front runner to replace Kenny at this point. That would be one Mr. Jim Nill unless he jumps at another GM spot in the next couple-few years.

I get the strong impression that Draper would be well groomed to be a GM at some point too... but I agree, Nill would be next in line, as he should be.

With all that said, I don't see Holland going anywhere, anytime soon and that is a VERY good thing

All I have to say about Holland and our off-season:

Here in this thread

Here in this one as well

Here in this one too

and finally

Here


Holland is a damn good GM. period.


#233 Z Winged Dangler

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 07:42 AM

Oh, and it deeply pains me to admit this about my childhood idol and my favorite player of all time... but...

Yzerman hasn't done that great in Tampa, yet people are willing to anoint him the next coming of Lord Stanley himself, remove a GM who is at least partially responsible for 4 cups in the last 15 years, and give him the reigns, just because he makes more moves (on a team that failed to make the playoffs last year mind you)... Grass is greener mentality if there's ever been one...

Yzerman has done ok, but not great. He's made some good moves, but also made some overpayments. Carle is good, but not worth more than $4-4.5 mil, let alone over $5mil. He's being aggressive and trying to make an identity for the Bolts, but he may have made a few moves that could handcuff him later. So like you said, I'm also glad that we have Kenny who is showing infinite patience for the new CBA and for other teams to waste all their money and make it so they may have to firesale in the future. And with how much we love our prospects, we should give them more of a chance before discounting them. We're a couple of good guys away from being a cup contender and those good guys may be named Nyquist, Smith and Brunner and i will remain optimistic cause i think all 3 are going to be stars.

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#234 esteef

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 11:51 AM

This sounds like the same cop-out you've been using since Suter was signed. You've constantly said that Holland should have made some move or another to secure a good replacement for Lidstrom, but you've just as constantly refused to give any examples of what you feel he should have done. Please give some, as your behavior is strongly indicating that you don't actually have any at all.


OR, I don't turn my comments into projects to satisfy some message board slappies. Nice try though.

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#235 Crymson

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 12:02 PM

OR, I don't turn my comments into projects to satisfy some message board slappies. Nice try though.

esteef


Translation: you don't have any examples. Because it would have taken you substantially less time to simply list them than it has for you to type up numerous posts about why you aren't giving any. Have fun yelling.

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#236 esteef

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 12:04 PM

Translation: you don't have any examples. Because it would have taken you substantially less time to simply list them than it has for you to type up numerous posts about why you aren't giving any. Have fun yelling.

crymson


Not.

esteef
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#237 F.Michael

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 12:04 PM

Cheapness has nothing to do with it it's not his money and Illitch wants him to spend it. They're goal is winning the Cup and overpaying for players just because we have the cap space would make it harder to achieve that goal.

Honest question here...

How much $$$ does Ilitch make when his team is bounced outta the 1st round of the playoffs?

How much $$$ does he make by having the team play golf by mid/late April?

I understand the need to "watch your pennies" in a cap world, but there's alot of space to play with, and Detroit has been a team that's sat around, and watches as others improve...Over paying on 1, or 2 players isn't gonna wreck this franchise - we're not Phoenix.

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#238 Crymson

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 12:07 PM

Honest question here...

How much $$$ does Ilitch make when his team is bounced outta the 1st round of the playoffs?

How much $$$ does he make by having the team play golf by mid/late April?

I understand the need to "watch your pennies" in a cap world, but there's alot of space to play with, and Detroit has been a team that's sat around, and watches as others improve...Over paying on 1, or 2 players isn't gonna wreck this franchise - we're not Phoenix.


How many other teams have substantially improved in this offseason?

#239 esteef

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 12:07 PM

Nah dood, if we overpay just one guy we'll be the laughing stock of the NHL and our franchise will be crippled for decades to come! Hide the Money! Corral the assets!

esteef
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#240 F.Michael

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 12:25 PM

How many other teams have substantially improved in this offseason?

How many other teams have lost a Norris Trophy calibre Dman, and another top 4 Dman this summer?

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