Holland Content with Current Roster

[joshy207 156]

So you don't care if Red Wings make the playoffs, you just want them to win Stanley Cups every year? That's about the most absurd and illogical thing I have ever read in my entire life! How many teams made the playoffs since lockout? I'm counting ONE.

If you make the playoffs, you have a CHANCE to win the Stanley Cup, just ask the LA Kings...

Yes, it is Kenny Hollands fault they didn't have any tradeable assets in 2010, he was too busy building Stanley Cup teams and SCF teams. If he said F*** the cup and tanked for top picks, he would have better trade-able assets right now. Unfortunately we won the cup, got higher picks, and those higher picks are still deveoping and currently have little trade value.

People need to have realistic expectations. F***!

Please go back and re-read what I wrote word-for-word. I said THE FRANCHISE EXPECTS TO COMPETE FOR STANLEY CUPS EVERY YEAR. That is something Ken Holland says all the time. I don't say that, nor do I think they're going to win every year. Besides, missing the playoffs once every 5 years or so gives you a chance to reload with better draft picks while still giving you plenty of opportunities in the postseason. One big thing Detroit lacks right now is young players who are major contributors.

[YougotDatsyuked 24]

There are valid points to each side of this argument. The core of this team is aging there is no doubt about that, and since 09 the team has been regressing. I don't have a problem with seeing how the new pieces fit for the first part of the season, however if it doesn't work out then moves need to be made. I would like to think Semin paired with dats would solve the offensive concerns but if holland doesn't make a move on him I can understand why due to his baggage.

[Guest Heaten]

Please go back and re-read what I wrote word-for-word. I said THE FRANCHISE EXPECTS TO COMPETE FOR STANLEY CUPS EVERY YEAR. That is something Ken Holland says all the time. I don't say that, nor do I think they're going to win every year. Besides, missing the playoffs once every 5 years or so gives you a chance to reload with better draft picks while still giving you plenty of opportunities in the postseason. One big thing Detroit lacks right now is young players who are major contributors.

And when you make the playoffs, you are competing for the Stanley Cup. Why tank when Holland is building playoff teams every year? I don't get your logic. If you were GM, you'd be fired before you start... This is the NU: NHL where 8th seed teams can win cups. When you make the playoffs, anything can happen.

[Dabura 12,207]

I would like to think Semin paired with dats would solve the offensive concerns but if holland doesn't make a move on him I can understand why due to his baggage.

I'm sorry to be a broken record, but - Semin would not go a long way in helping. He's not physical; you won't see him mucking it up in the corners or crashing the crease. He's not D-minded; you won't see him busting his balls on the backcheck - and that's if you see him backcheck at all. He's not really high-intensity. His work ethic, his commmitment are highly questionable. On being boxed out by a big, physial, defense-oriented team in their zone, he, like all of our current "scorers," will settle for low-percentage perimeter shots. He might have more success with this than our current guys; he has a blistering shot. But really, it'd be more of the same. Our top-6 needs some new ingredients, a new dimension or two or three or four.

Edited July 15, 2012 by Dabura

[Guest Johnz96]

In Kenny we trust.

Unless you're... not smart (euphemism)

[Doc Holliday 1,888]

I think that Holland should NEVER be content! EVER! He needs to be in perpetual motion! Changing, bettering, just frickin let go of Franzine! Trade Filppula for Ryan!!! Selanne wants him there and will press the Ducks to make the deal!

Just NEVER EVER be content! You have to be better than 29 other GM's...never settle...

When in doubt, use exclamation points.

[Shaman 713]

Nashville also was exposed against a better Phoenix team and lost their #2 defenseman this offseason, losing their one shot at a Cup for the next decade. L.A. relied upon goaltending through the first couple of rounds in the playoffs and by having Richards there was little chance that Carter was going to any other team.

My feeling is that Holland isn't doing anything trade-wise at this point because:

A) There may be another lockout.

B) Other teams are asking for roster players that the Wings need and a major trade would jeopardize this team's depth.

I would be surprised if any moves are made before a new CBA is reached. Patience.

First, Quick was good, but without that trade they wouldn't have made the playoffs.

Second, Nashville got beat because of their lack of experience in the post season, Phoenix were veterans compared to them, and they played like it.

Finally: There WILL NOT be another lockout, both sides know that it will kill the NHL if they have another lock out so soon. Both sides will go in with big demands, but count on the new CBA to look a lot like the current one with some of the loophole closed. If the cap goes down, expect all contracts to be adjusted accordingly, there will not be a gush of talent on the market after the new CBA.

[joshy207 156]

And when you make the playoffs, you are competing for the Stanley Cup. Why tank when Holland is building playoff teams every year? I don't get your logic. If you were GM, you'd be fired before you start... This is the NU: NHL where 8th seed teams can win cups. When you make the playoffs, anything can happen.

Your first sentence is where we differ. I think, while the teams have always been good enough to make the playoffs, they haven't been real Cup contenders. I think that shows in some stretches, where the Wings can't score goals despite firing 40+ shots at the goalie. Their style of play is great for the regular season, but everyone knows the playoffs are a different brand of hockey, and most years, the Wings just don't have that game in them. Too many shots from the perimeter, not enough driving the net, not enough ugly goals, and they don't change their style or play with any desperation until it's too late (see Anaheim 2003, Nashville 2012, and a few in between). Yes, an 8 seed beat a 6 seed this year, but both teams had the right mix of players, coaching, goaltending, and health to win. A lot of the games were ugly. I just don't see this Wings team having the right players to win the Cup as they stand right now. And, while I will admit I am not a Holland fan, I'll tell anyone who asks that this offseason is far from over, he has plenty of time to make trades and sign free agents to improve the roster.

[joshy207 156]

Finally: There WILL NOT be another lockout, both sides know that it will kill the NHL if they have another lock out so soon. Both sides will go in with big demands, but count on the new CBA to look a lot like the current one with some of the loophole closed. If the cap goes down, expect all contracts to be adjusted accordingly, there will not be a gush of talent on the market after the new CBA.

I think the owners are fully prepared to do what the NBA did, and lock the players out for the first 2-3 months of the season if they need to. I think their first CBA proposal was over the top, but it's just that, a first proposal. Ideally the new CBA shouldn't be a whole lot different than the current one, a few tweaks here and there and a slight reduction of the players' share of the revenue, and boom, it's back to the ice. But the owners will hold out until they get their way, or at least as close to it as they feel they can get. The players should "win" this one, but I don't know how they really can.... it could get ugly.

[Guest Johnz96]

I think the owners are fully prepared to do what the NBA did, and lock the players out for the first 2-3 months of the season if they need to. I think their first CBA proposal was over the top, but it's just that, a first proposal. Ideally the new CBA shouldn't be a whole lot different than the current one, a few tweaks here and there and a slight reduction of the players' share of the revenue, and boom, it's back to the ice. But the owners will hold out until they get their way, or at least as close to it as they feel they can get. The players should "win" this one, but I don't know how they really can.... it could get ugly.

The players shouldn't cave in there are a lot of leagues they can play in. f*** Bettman he is the worst thing that ever happened to the game of hockey

Edited July 15, 2012 by Johnz96

[pucktividi 472]

My biggest issue with "keeping homegrown talent" is that, despite obvious shortcomings in some postseasons, the same players are kept around year after year after year. Holland has said (and I don't know where to find the quote, so I'll paraphrase) that he "doesn't believe in trading away assets. Once you get them, you hang on to them." Well, sometimes those assets underachieve when they're being counted on the most.

Agree,4 years ago,our top 4 d-men were awesome+we had E,Kindl and Smith waiting for a chance and the future looked very bright so can't blame Ken for doing "nothing" these days,but at the moment it became obvious that both E and Kindl kinda underachieved and with a threat of Nick's and Raffi's retirement,Ken should have take a risk to get another #1/2 d-man somehow.

Yes,Smith looks great,but no one can convince me there isn't a possibility he'll underachieve,because everyone expects from him to step up big time.

[Shaman 713]

I think the owners are fully prepared to do what the NBA did, and lock the players out for the first 2-3 months of the season if they need to. I think their first CBA proposal was over the top, but it's just that, a first proposal. Ideally the new CBA shouldn't be a whole lot different than the current one, a few tweaks here and there and a slight reduction of the players' share of the revenue, and boom, it's back to the ice. But the owners will hold out until they get their way, or at least as close to it as they feel they can get. The players should "win" this one, but I don't know how they really can.... it could get ugly.

I still don't see that, the owners are businessmen and they know that they lost a lot of good will with the fans the last lockout, another lockout they may as well trade their NHL teams for WNBA teams.

[BuckeyeWingsfan80 209]

I still don't see that, the owners are businessmen and they know that they lost a lot of good will with the fans the last lockout, another lockout they may as well trade their NHL teams for WNBA teams.

Never underestimate the collective stupidity of a group of people who have money to burn.

[Zberg40 0]

I'm very comfortable with this lineup if these things happen. I say hold fast (Try for Doan though) and make a deadline deal for D help if needed.

1 Howard continues turning into an elite goalie

2 Babcock was right about Brunnstrom

3 Kronwall steps it up even more.

4 Bertuzzi and Frazen have stellar years

5 Smith works his way into the top 4

6 Nyquist needs to bulk up and perform

7 Helm needs to stay 100%

Lot of big IFs, but we know Datsyuk and Zetterbeg will step up to the plate. Defence seems thin, but I'm excited to see who will emerge this year.

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

I'm very comfortable with this lineup if these things happen. I say hold fast (Try for Doan though) and make a deadline deal for D help if needed.

1 Howard continues turning into an elite goalie

2 Babcock was right about Brunnstrom

3 Kronwall steps it up even more.

4 Bertuzzi and Frazen have stellar years

5 Smith works his way into the top 4

6 Nyquist needs to bulk up and perform

7 Helm needs to stay 100%

Lot of big IFs, but we know Datsyuk and Zetterbeg will step up to the plate. Defence seems thin, but I'm excited to see who will emerge this year.

I'd add Kindl stepping up in a big way to that list.

He has yet to show consistently that he can be an NHL defenseman, and right now the Wings only have six signed so they'd need him to play well all season long on the bottom pairing, or at least until the trade deadline. That defense also needs to stay healthy all season long too. I don't know who they'd call up from Grand Rapids now with Janik gone. It's why I'd expect Holland to pick up a veteran 6/7 guy for cheap before the season starts.

[Guest RedWingsDad]

I still don't see that, the owners are businessmen and they know that they lost a lot of good will with the fans the last lockout, another lockout they may as well trade their NHL teams for WNBA teams.

Bettman knows this and is rolling the dice that the players will give in to his ludicrous demands (or atleast part of them). So it's basically a game of chicken... maybe neither side will blink and we end up with a lockout. Bettman strikes me as the kind of person that would go to lockout to prove his point and/or get his way... I mean look at the Yote's... give it up already, amirite?

Edited July 16, 2012 by RedWingsDad

[ogreslayer 1,069]

I'm very comfortable with this lineup if these things happen. I say hold fast (Try for Doan though) and make a deadline deal for D help if needed.

1 Howard continues turning into an elite goalie

2 Babcock was right about Brunnstrom

3 Kronwall steps it up even more.

4 Bertuzzi and Frazen have stellar years

5 Smith works his way into the top 4

6 Nyquist needs to bulk up and perform

7 Helm needs to stay 100%

Lot of big IFs, but we know Datsyuk and Zetterbeg will step up to the plate. Defence seems thin, but I'm excited to see who will emerge this year.

I assume you mean Brunner, not Brunnstrom. I think the ship has already sailed on Fabian.

[LeftWinger 4,949]

So is it correct that I am hearing that the owners want a Cap on salries and to do away with long contracts? All the while its the owners that are overpaying these players AND giving them 13 year contracts? So if those are two of the issues, what part is the players fault?

Reminds me of UAW bitching about paying workers so much to be on unemployment, yet the companies are the ones who agreed to those terms...

[Guest RedWingsDad]

So is it correct that I am hearing that the owners want a Cap on salries and to do away with long contracts? All the while its the owners that are overpaying these players AND giving them 13 year contracts? So if those are two of the issues, what part is the players fault?

Reminds me of UAW bitching about paying workers so much to be on unemployment, yet the companies are the ones who agreed to those terms...

"yet the companies are the ones who agreed [Read: were coerced] to those terms..." But I digress...

[Wings_Toledo 233]

First, Quick was good, but without that trade they wouldn't have made the playoffs.

Second, Nashville got beat because of their lack of experience in the post season, Phoenix were veterans compared to them, and they played like it.

Finally: There WILL NOT be another lockout, both sides know that it will kill the NHL if they have another lock out so soon. Both sides will go in with big demands, but count on the new CBA to look a lot like the current one with some of the loophole closed. If the cap goes down, expect all contracts to be adjusted accordingly, there will not be a gush of talent on the market after the new CBA.

In reality, no one knows what will happen. We can't say for certain that there will or won't be a lockout. Only the owners and players can decide what happens in the next few months. Would a lockout be a terrible thing for the league? Yes. Is it still possible that it could happen? Yes.

Either way, those other teams made major trades and they worked out well for one team, not so well for another. That's not to say that making a major trade at the deadline would have helped the Wings. Every team is different and I'm comfortable with the situation that Holland is in at the moment.

Edited July 16, 2012 by Wings_Toledo

[Guest Hatethedrake!]

I think both sides will come to a deal most likely in the middle of September. Gary has made his ridiculous offer. Soon, Fehr will make his ridiculous offer. Then the negotiations will become real. Both sides will give a little and a deal will be struck. Both sides know this league cannot survive another lockout.

[kipwinger 8,518]

Players strike when they've got nothing to lose, owners strike when they've got everything to gain. Neither is the case this year. I'm predicting a new CBA with relatively few holdups, though it will probably carry on for while so that both sides can posture a little bit for next time.

[Dabura 12,207]

Capgeek is so depressing now.

[Drake_Marcus 890]

"yet the companies are the ones who agreed [Read: were coerced] to those terms..." But I digress...

The companies weren't helpless people held at knifepoint. They made financial choices based on certain projections and those projections didn't prove out. There's nothing more comical than the falicy that big corporations are somehow powerless or victims of anything but their own greed.

[Drake_Marcus 890]

Players strike when they've got nothing to lose, owners strike when they've got everything to gain. Neither is the case this year. I'm predicting a new CBA with relatively few holdups, though it will probably carry on for while so that both sides can posture a little bit for next time.

Agreed. The big issues I'm guessing will be address are:

1) Lowering the current cap ceiling and floor

2) Addressing the burying of players in the minors or loaning them overseas to effectively circumvent the cap (this is something I imagine the NHLPA isn't happy about)

3) Changes to the way the cap ceiling/floor is calculated from year to year

4) Changes to the way contracts can be structured with respect to the tack-on 1mil years gms like to stick to the end of deals to bring the hit down. One solution could be to simply make the contracts count against the cap if players retire over 35 no matter when they signed the contract.