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#181 Z Winged Dangler

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Posted 13 July 2012 - 12:18 PM

Lidstrom - no n

I can overlook all the other spelling and gramatical errors, but come on... he's a legend, get his name right...

Ya, cuz there gunna hung hiz jerzy nix yizzear

This offseason will determine whether Ken Holland should still be employed with the Wings organization.

 

Please put Smith on the Power Play!


#182 Carman

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Posted 13 July 2012 - 12:23 PM

Yeah dude, trade Datsyuk and Kronwall and Zetterberg and Helm and some picks. Your ridiculous defense of Holland no matter the circumstance is getting dumber and dumber. I wish I had a job where I could just throw my hands up and say "I can't do anything" and everyone would praise me. What a f***in' load.

esteef


Holland has done many things, and it's resulted in us being one of the greatest franchises in all of sports for the last 20 or so years.

We aren't Calgary, we aren't strapped for cash to spend, and have a barren prospect pool.

You haven't given any reason for being disappointed other than he should have done "something", what is that "something" he should have done? Did you want him to give up Filppula, Smith and a first round pick for Brent Burns? I know I wouldn't have. What other defenseman have been traded the last few seasons that would actually have been acceptable? How about free agents did you want Wisniewski for 6 years? We got a very good defenseman in Ian White, and right now the Red Wings are in a great position in being able to be in every trade scenario and being in on every big time free agent, it sucks that we didn't land Suter, but it's not like Holland isn't doing anything, and to say he isn't is just presenting a very weak argument based on a biased preconception that's due to ignorance of the situation.

Edited by Carman, 13 July 2012 - 12:23 PM.


#183 stevkrause

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Posted 13 July 2012 - 12:24 PM

Ya, cuz there gunna hung hiz jerzy nix yizzear

fer reeelz!

All I have to say about Holland and our off-season:

Here in this thread

Here in this one as well

Here in this one too

and finally

Here


Holland is a damn good GM. period.


#184 esteef

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Posted 13 July 2012 - 12:27 PM

Holland has done many things, and it's resulted in us being one of the greatest franchises in all of sports for the last 20 or so years.

We aren't Calgary, we aren't strapped for cash to spend, and have a barren prospect pool.

You haven't given any reason for being disappointed other than he should have done "something", what is that "something" he should have done? Did you want him to give up Filppula, Smith and a first round pick for Brent Burns? I know I wouldn't have. What other defenseman have been traded the last few seasons that would actually have been acceptable? How about free agents did you want Wisniewski for 6 years? We got a very good defenseman in Ian White, and right now the Red Wings are in a great position in being able to be in every trade scenario and being in on every big time free agent, it sucks that we didn't land Suter, but it's not like Holland isn't doing anything, and to say he isn't just presenting a very weak argument based on a biased preconception that's due to ignorance of the situation.


First, Ian White is not a "very good defenseman" and yes I would've traded players or possibly overpaid to get what I needed instead of shrugging my shoulders and lip-servicing the media and fans with future promises of next time, next time, next time. Now look where we are. Yes Holland has been doing "something" the last couple years and it has sucked.

esteef
"The Wings haven't won a Cup without Darren McCarty since 1955."

#185 Carman

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Posted 13 July 2012 - 12:36 PM

Wait Ian White, the defenseman that was +23 and 32 points for 2.8 million isn't very good? He is better than Ehroff, Kaberle, Goligoski, Bogosian, Girardi, Bouwmeester, Fowler, Erik Johnson etc. He played very very well last season. Yikes.

And I disagree with overpaying for players, you make moves that make your team better. Just making a move to appease fans is why big market teams like Toronto, New York, Vancouver, Philly etc. fans are disappointed every single year.

And "Now look where we are", you mean the team that's made the playoffs 20 years in a row, with trade assets, that's involved in every trade rumor/free agent signing? It's just a mater of time before you get what you want. Be happy he didn't sign Erhoff or Wisniewski last season.

I'd still like an example of a move that would have made you happy. Because I can't think of a defenseman that's been traded recently that would.

#186 Shaman

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Posted 13 July 2012 - 12:44 PM

Holland has done many things, and it's resulted in us being one of the greatest franchises in all of sports for the last 20 or so years.

We aren't Calgary, we aren't strapped for cash to spend, and have a barren prospect pool.

You haven't given any reason for being disappointed other than he should have done "something", what is that "something" he should have done? Did you want him to give up Filppula, Smith and a first round pick for Brent Burns? I know I wouldn't have. What other defenseman have been traded the last few seasons that would actually have been acceptable? How about free agents did you want Wisniewski for 6 years? We got a very good defenseman in Ian White, and right now the Red Wings are in a great position in being able to be in every trade scenario and being in on every big time free agent, it sucks that we didn't land Suter, but it's not like Holland isn't doing anything, and to say he isn't is just presenting a very weak argument based on a biased preconception that's due to ignorance of the situation.


Holland hasn't been the GM for 20 years. Just saying.
Feuer und Wasser kommt nicht zusammen
Kann man nicht binden sind nicht verwandt
In Funken versunken steh ich in Flammen
und bin im Wasser verbrannt
Im Wasser verbrannt

#187 esteef

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Posted 13 July 2012 - 12:44 PM

Wait Ian White, the defenseman that was +23 and 32 points for 2.8 million isn't very good? He is better than Ehroff, Kaberle, Goligoski, Bogosian, Girardi, Bouwmeester, Fowler, Erik Johnson etc. He played very very well last season. Yikes.

And I disagree with overpaying for players, you make moves that make your team better. Just making a move to appease fans is why big market teams like Toronto, New York, Vancouver, Philly etc. fans are disappointed every single year.

And "Now look where we are", you mean the team that's made the playoffs 20 years in a row, with trade assets, that's involved in every trade rumor/free agent signing? It's just a mater of time before you get what you want. Be happy he didn't sign Erhoff or Wisniewski last season.

I'd still like an example of a move that would have made you happy. Because I can't think of a defenseman that's been traded recently that would.


Ian White played with Lidstrom all year, I'm sure that affected his stats. Why do you think we got him so cheap? He doesn't suck, but he ain't "great". Put it this way, I don't like him being the 2nd best d-man on our team.

Did I say make a move to appease fans? No. Of course the moves should make the team better, but the way you twisted it sounds better for your argument right?. Sometimes you do have to overpay.

Again the "20 years in a row" is wearing thin because we're creeping downhill every year. Kenny's been resting on his past successes too long.

esteef
"The Wings haven't won a Cup without Darren McCarty since 1955."

#188 Carman

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Posted 13 July 2012 - 12:45 PM

Holland hasn't been the GM for 20 years. Just saying.


Wasn't refering to just his work as GM.

Ian White played with Lidstrom all year, I'm sure that affected his stats. Why do you think we got him so cheap? He doesn't suck, but he ain't "great". Put it this way, I don't like him being the 2nd best d-man on our team.

Did I say make a move to appease fans? No. Of course the moves should make the team better, but the way you twisted it sounds better for your argument right?. Sometimes you do have to overpay.

Again the "20 years in a row" is wearing thin because we're creeping downhill every year. Kenny's been resting on his past successes too long.

esteef


No doubt it helped White, but he was still productive on his own merit especially given his contract. His production was the second best in the 2011 free agent class behind Bieksa.

In my opinion you only overpay when you get an elite player, overpaying for Brent Burns would not have helped us. Overpaying for Suter? Probably would have helped us. And Holland was planning to. I just don't see the situations the past few years that would have made sense to overpay, could you cite some?

Indeed past success is only as important as your future, and I fail to see how the Wings are looking bad in the future, our prospect pool is by all accounts very deep, and we have plenty of cap room to improve.

Edited by Carman, 13 July 2012 - 12:53 PM.


#189 Z Winged Dangler

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Posted 13 July 2012 - 12:45 PM

First, Ian White is not a "very good defenseman" and yes I would've traded players or possibly overpaid to get what I needed instead of shrugging my shoulders and lip-servicing the media and fans with future promises of next time, next time, next time. Now look where we are. Yes Holland has been doing "something" the last couple years and it has sucked.

esteef

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This offseason will determine whether Ken Holland should still be employed with the Wings organization.

 

Please put Smith on the Power Play!


#190 Shaman

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Posted 13 July 2012 - 12:46 PM

Wait Ian White, the defenseman that was +23 and 32 points for 2.8 million isn't very good? He is better than Ehroff, Kaberle, Goligoski, Bogosian, Girardi, Bouwmeester, Fowler, Erik Johnson etc. He played very very well last season. Yikes.

And I disagree with overpaying for players, you make moves that make your team better. Just making a move to appease fans is why big market teams like Toronto, New York, Vancouver, Philly etc. fans are disappointed every single year.

And "Now look where we are", you mean the team that's made the playoffs 20 years in a row, with trade assets, that's involved in every trade rumor/free agent signing? It's just a mater of time before you get what you want. Be happy he didn't sign Erhoff or Wisniewski last season.

I'd still like an example of a move that would have made you happy. Because I can't think of a defenseman that's been traded recently that would.


+/- is a poor stat for judging defensive performance, I'd look at situational stats, quality minutes, etc. If you take 2 defensemen with the same overall skill set and ability level and one plays against bottom 6 players exclusively and the other plays against top 6 players exclusively, I would bet my bottom dollar that D-man #1 will have a better +/-, even if D-man two is playing more quality minutes.
Feuer und Wasser kommt nicht zusammen
Kann man nicht binden sind nicht verwandt
In Funken versunken steh ich in Flammen
und bin im Wasser verbrannt
Im Wasser verbrannt

#191 FlashyG

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Posted 13 July 2012 - 12:50 PM

First, Ian White is not a "very good defenseman" and yes I would've traded players or possibly overpaid to get what I needed instead of shrugging my shoulders and lip-servicing the media and fans with future promises of next time, next time, next time. Now look where we are. Yes Holland has been doing "something" the last couple years and it has sucked.

esteef


I'll take White and his 2.875 million dollar contract over Wiz at 5.5 every day of the week. Who would you have overpaid for? what would you have traded to get "what we need" who do you have in mind for what we've needed the past few years?

Its one thing to say he should have done "something" but you aren't really proposing any options.

As for where we are, we're in the off-season, you don't have a crystal ball and you aren't any more accurate predicting the Wings failure than the optimists are at predicting a championship.

#192 Shaman

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Posted 13 July 2012 - 12:52 PM

Wasn't refering to just his work as GM.


To be clear the success of the Wings, just like the failures of the Wings are not Holland's alone, its the whole management and coaching infrastructure. If I wanted Holland fired (and I may after this season (2012-13)), it wouldn't be just a message to Holland, but to the whole front office. This season will tell the real worth of the Ken Holland Red Wings. (I say this because up until 2008-2009 the Wings were pretty much the team built by Bowman and Jimmy D along with Holland).
Feuer und Wasser kommt nicht zusammen
Kann man nicht binden sind nicht verwandt
In Funken versunken steh ich in Flammen
und bin im Wasser verbrannt
Im Wasser verbrannt

#193 Carman

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Posted 13 July 2012 - 12:57 PM

To be clear the success of the Wings, just like the failures of the Wings are not Holland's alone, its the whole management and coaching infrastructure. If I wanted Holland fired (and I may after this season (2012-13)), it wouldn't be just a message to Holland, but to the whole front office. This season will tell the real worth of the Ken Holland Red Wings. (I say this because up until 2008-2009 the Wings were pretty much the team built by Bowman and Jimmy D along with Holland).


Of course, Holland should take the blame if the team tanks. I'd be with you if we miss the playoffs next year. I'd probably support him for one more season, but that's it. I have very high expectations of this team, I'm just looking at the situation as realistically as I can, and I cannot come up with any moves the past few seasons that would put the Red Wings in a better situation then they are now.

Edited by Carman, 13 July 2012 - 12:58 PM.


#194 Z Winged Dangler

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Posted 13 July 2012 - 12:58 PM

I'll take White and his 2.875 million dollar contract over Wiz at 5.5 every day of the week. Who would you have overpaid for? what would you have traded to get "what we need" who do you have in mind for what we've needed the past few years?

Its one thing to say he should have done "something" but you aren't really proposing any options.

As for where we are, we're in the off-season, you don't have a crystal ball and you aren't any more accurate predicting the Wings failure than the optimists are at predicting a championship.

Cheese Wiz wasn't coming here anyways cause "the Wings don't pay their players market value" Clearly he fits in the group of being more worried about money than winning.

Mark Flood is apparently UFA going by capgeek. He's a really good dman.

This offseason will determine whether Ken Holland should still be employed with the Wings organization.

 

Please put Smith on the Power Play!


#195 Shaman

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Posted 13 July 2012 - 01:02 PM

Of course, Holland should take the blame if the team tanks. I'd be with you if we miss the playoffs next year. I'd probably support him for one more season, but that's it. I have very high expectations of this team, I'm just looking at the situation as realistically as I can, and I cannot come up with any moves the past few seasons that would put the Red Wings in a better situation then they are now.

The only real problem I can find with the past few years is drafting philosophy in the first two rounds that caused them to miss out on some really good D-prospect that would be either NHL ready today, or by the 2013 season. But the draft is never a guarantee, so I won't fault him too much for it.
Feuer und Wasser kommt nicht zusammen
Kann man nicht binden sind nicht verwandt
In Funken versunken steh ich in Flammen
und bin im Wasser verbrannt
Im Wasser verbrannt

#196 esteef

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Posted 13 July 2012 - 01:06 PM

I'll take White and his 2.875 million dollar contract over Wiz at 5.5 every day of the week. Who would you have overpaid for? what would you have traded to get "what we need" who do you have in mind for what we've needed the past few years?

Its one thing to say he should have done "something" but you aren't really proposing any options.

As for where we are, we're in the off-season, you don't have a crystal ball and you aren't any more accurate predicting the Wings failure than the optimists are at predicting a championship.


Like I said, White doesn't suck, I just don't like him being the 2nd best d-man on the Wings. But the offseason isn't over yet, so we'll see what Holland does.

I would've addressed the team's needs that have been clear for a couple years now, a top 6 forward and someone to eventually replace Lids. Anything else isn't getting it done, especially for a GM of Holland's caliber. Now he has to fill those holes AND others all in one offseason which is quickly ending.

esteef
"The Wings haven't won a Cup without Darren McCarty since 1955."

#197 Carman

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Posted 13 July 2012 - 01:09 PM

I would've addressed the team's needs that have been clear for a couple years now, a top 6 forward and someone to eventually replace Lids.


How? What? Which move could he have realistically done?

I don't know of a dman that has been moved that could replace lids, can I get a name?

#198 FlashyG

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Posted 13 July 2012 - 01:28 PM

Like I said, White doesn't suck, I just don't like him being the 2nd best d-man on the Wings. But the offseason isn't over yet, so we'll see what Holland does.

I would've addressed the team's needs that have been clear for a couple years now, a top 6 forward and someone to eventually replace Lids. Anything else isn't getting it done, especially for a GM of Holland's caliber. Now he has to fill those holes AND others all in one offseason which is quickly ending.

esteef


I'm looking for specific players, not general things like I'd get a top 6 forward and a Lidstrom replacement.

Who is the top 6 forward you'd target? if its a FA, what would you be willing to pay him?
Who would you trade for and what would you have given up to get him?


To be clear the success of the Wings, just like the failures of the Wings are not Holland's alone, its the whole management and coaching infrastructure. If I wanted Holland fired (and I may after this season (2012-13)), it wouldn't be just a message to Holland, but to the whole front office. This season will tell the real worth of the Ken Holland Red Wings. (I say this because up until 2008-2009 the Wings were pretty much the team built by Bowman and Jimmy D along with Holland).


I agree that Holland isn't solely responsible for the successes and failures, but I disagree that Bowman deserves the credit for building the Wings that were playing in 2008. Bowman worth was as a coach, not a team builder. He also was only a consultant for the Wings from 2002 until he left for the same position in Chicago. I remember Babcock saying he talked to Scotty almost every day, but I've never heard of him lending a hand to Kenny or the management team.

Holland has been part of the GM team since 1994 and has been the full time GM since 97-98. Of the 2008 Red Wings the only players on it that weren't drafted by or brought in by Holland were Osgood, Holmstrom, Lidstrom, Maltby, McCarty and Draper.

#199 Shaman

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Posted 13 July 2012 - 01:28 PM

How? What? Which move could he have realistically done?

I don't know of a dman that has been moved that could replace lids, can I get a name?

Well, there has been some experiments to combine Orr's offense with Lidstrom's Defense and knees to make a super D-man, but, Pizza sales have been down and transmogrifiers are not cheap.
Feuer und Wasser kommt nicht zusammen
Kann man nicht binden sind nicht verwandt
In Funken versunken steh ich in Flammen
und bin im Wasser verbrannt
Im Wasser verbrannt

#200 esteef

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Posted 13 July 2012 - 01:32 PM

How? What? Which move could he have realistically done?

I don't know of a dman that has been moved that could replace lids, can I get a name?


Thru trades and free agency, duh? And I've already answered why I'm not going to be baited into playing the specifics game in the "How Bad are we..." thread. Go find your answer there.

esteef
"The Wings haven't won a Cup without Darren McCarty since 1955."





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