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#201 kipwinger

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Posted 13 July 2012 - 01:39 PM

How? What? Which move could he have realistically done?

I don't know of a dman that has been moved that could replace lids, can I get a name?


Obviously nobody can replace Lidstrom, but there have been plenty of guys over the last couple of years who are legit top four defenders, and if you want a top four defenseman (or top six winger) and you aren't currently developing any in your farm, then you're going to have to overpay in free agency (or else watch them go somewhere else). (2012) Carle, Wideman, Allen (2011) Wisniewski, Pitkanen, Erhoff, Jovanovski, Kaberle (2010) Paul Martin, Dan Hamhuis are all guys who were available and could have been signed. I know some of them got s***ty contracts and all that, and maybe that would have been the case no matter what, but you never know who'd be willing to take less to avoid places like Florida, Buffalo, or Columbus. That's the kicker though, it has to be a LITTLE bit less (in term or salary), you can't expect free agents to turn down millions of dollars in difference just because this is Detroit. Every team has potential anymore.

I honestly believe the reason none of the above mentioned were signed is because nobody expected to lose Lidstrom and Stuart in the same year.

I don't think Kenny is a f*** up, but let's not pretend like there were simply no conceivable options for the last couple of years.

Edited by kipwinger, 13 July 2012 - 01:45 PM.

GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#202 Carman

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Posted 13 July 2012 - 01:39 PM

Thru trades and free agency, duh? And I've already answered why I'm not going to be baited into playing the specifics game in the "How Bad are we..." thread. Go find your answer there.

esteef


I'm not trying to bait you into anything, I'm just trying to understand your position. How can you say Holland should have done "something", when you can't name that "something"?

I'd get not liking some of Holland's moves like trading to get Quincy, or if you wanted Holland to be more in on the Burns trade. I wouldn't necessarily agree with you, but at least I'd know where you are coming from and we can compare predictions and thoughts on the future of the Red Wings given the move would have wanted him to make. Right now you're argument is you don't like Holland because he didn't do something you can't even come up with?

Obviously nobody can replace Lidstrom, but there have been plenty of guys over the last couple of years who are legit top four defenders, and if you want a top four defenseman (or top six winger) and you aren't currently developing any in your farm, then you're going to have to overpay in free agency (or else watch them go somewhere else). (2012) Carle, Wideman, Allen (2011) Wisniewski, Pitkanen, Erhoff, Jovanovski, Kaberle (2010) Paul Martin, Dan Hamhuis are all guys who were available and could have been signed. I know some of them got s***ty contracts and all that, and maybe that would have been the case no matter what, but you never know who'd be willing to take less to avoid places like Florida, Buffalo, or Columbus. That's the kicker though, it has to be a LITTLE bit less (in term or salary), you can't expect free agents to turn down millions of dollars in difference just because this is Detroit. Every team has potential anymore.

I honestly believe the reason one of the above mentioned wasn't signed is because nobody expected to lose Lidstrom and Stuart in the same year.

I don't think Kenny is a f*** up, but let's not pretend like there were simply no conceivable options for the last couple of years.


Out of those names you listed I honestly think the Red Wings are better off without overpaying for them. I really prefer the situation we have now without one of those defenseman, than if we had one. Ian White is better than any of those names, and he's signed for 2.8 million. Deals are out there. If the Red Wings miss the playoffs due to not spending, I'd understand the dismay, but until then I don't understand the disappointment, because I just don't see how those players make the Red Wings better.

Edited by Carman, 13 July 2012 - 01:44 PM.


#203 Heaten

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Posted 13 July 2012 - 01:47 PM

Yeah dude, trade Datsyuk and Kronwall and Zetterberg and Helm and some picks. Your ridiculous defense of Holland no matter the circumstance is getting dumber and dumber. I wish I had a job where I could just throw my hands up and say "I can't do anything" and everyone would praise me. What a f***in' load.

esteef


Since when is making the playoffs year in, year out "not doing anything"?

Again, you prove to unrealistic expectations. What team since the 80s oilers win stanely cups year in, year out. In todays league (under the salary cap), making the playoffs is a good achievement, especially when your team doesn't get top 10 picks every year.

Holland is keeping this team out of cap hell while keeping this team competitive. You can't even tell us what he can do better? Offer Suter $12 million per year for the next 18 years, Signed Parise to a 25 year contract with a cap hit of $11.5 million. Trade Smith,Jarkrok, Jurco, Mzrak, + four 1st for Rick Nash?

What is your brilliant plan under the current CBA?

In 2010 Red Wings had very little assets. Today they finally do.You want to give them all away for a 1 or 2 year run and then tank for the next 7 years like Toronto, Oilers, Penguins? What is your brilliant master plan?

#204 kipwinger

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Posted 13 July 2012 - 01:51 PM

I'm not trying to bait you into anything, I'm just trying to understand your position. How can you say Holland should have done "something", when you can't name that "something"?

I'd get not liking some of Holland's moves like trading to get Quincy, or if you wanted Holland to be more in on the Burns trade. I wouldn't necessarily agree with you, but at least I'd know where you are coming from and we can compare predictions and thoughts on the future of the Red Wings given the move would have wanted him to make. Right now you're argument is you don't like Holland because he didn't do something you can't even come up with?



Out of those names you listed I honestly think the Red Wings are better off without overpaying for them. I really prefer the situation we have now without one of those defenseman, than if we had one. Ian White is better than any of those names, and he's signed for 2.8 million. Deals are out there. If the Red Wings miss the playoffs due to not spending, I'd understand the dismay, but until then I don't understand the disappointment, because I just don't see how those players make the Red Wings better.


I don't like any situation in which we only have five defensemen under contract, the best of which scored 36 points last year and was a -3 defensively in spite of playing regular minutes with defensively responsible players such as Stuart, Zetterberg, and Filppula.

GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#205 stevkrause

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Posted 13 July 2012 - 01:54 PM

No one's questioning Kenny's entire resume, just his recent performance over the last couple years. If Kenny was the awesome GM you claim we wouldn't be in this position. And again you keep harping on THIS offseason, like it's the only one in question. Pay attention dood.

esteef

I'm not gonna be baited into repeating myself for the 100th time, go find the answer yourself.

All I have to say about Holland and our off-season:

Here in this thread

Here in this one as well

Here in this one too

and finally

Here


Holland is a damn good GM. period.


#206 Carman

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Posted 13 July 2012 - 01:55 PM

I don't like any situation in which we only have five defensemen under contract, the best of which scored 36 points last year and was a -3 defensively in spite of playing regular minutes with defensively responsible players such as Stuart, Zetterberg, and Filppula.


I guess you hate the King's situation too? I mean their top defenseman is getting paid 7 million dollars and had 36 points and -2 despite playing regular minutes with defensively responsible players like Dustin Brown, Kopitar and Mitchell.

#207 stevkrause

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Posted 13 July 2012 - 01:57 PM

I guess you hate the King's situation too? I mean their top defenseman is getting paid 7 million dollars and had 36 points and -2 despite playing regular minutes with defensively responsible players like Dustin Brown, Kopitar and Mitchell.

And boom goes the dynamite

All I have to say about Holland and our off-season:

Here in this thread

Here in this one as well

Here in this one too

and finally

Here


Holland is a damn good GM. period.


#208 kipwinger

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Posted 13 July 2012 - 01:58 PM

I guess you hate the King's situation too? I mean their top defenseman is getting paid 7 million dollars and had 36 points and -2 despite playing regular minutes with defensively responsible players like Dustin Brown, Kopitar and Mitchell.


Actually I don't think Doughty is that good, and certainly never did a thing to deserve that 7 million dollar contract (which was given to him before the cup season).

As it is, we've got one of the smallest team defenses, and almost all of them are considered puck movers and not top notch defensively. AND there's only five of them!

Edited by kipwinger, 13 July 2012 - 02:00 PM.

GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#209 Wingzman91

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Posted 13 July 2012 - 01:58 PM

I also want to take this time to blame every other GM beside Lombardi for not winning the cup.
You all know what you didn't do to make your teams better, how dare you all.


Holland is an easy target for everyone who thinks the glass is half empty, no amount of trades and free agents will guarantee your team a cup and to blame the GM for a perceived lack of moves is ignorant.


" Damn you Kenny! Why didn't you go back in time and move the Suters and Parises to Detroit before they where born! "


There is absolutely nothing better any of you could have done. Period.

#210 esteef

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Posted 13 July 2012 - 02:01 PM

Since when is making the playoffs year in, year out "not doing anything"?

Again, you prove to unrealistic expectations. What team since the 80s oilers win stanely cups year in, year out. In todays league (under the salary cap), making the playoffs is a good achievement, especially when your team doesn't get top 10 picks every year.

Holland is keeping this team out of cap hell while keeping this team competitive. You can't even tell us what he can do better? Offer Suter $12 million per year for the next 18 years, Signed Parise to a 25 year contract with a cap hit of $11.5 million. Trade Smith,Jarkrok, Jurco, Mzrak, + four 1st for Rick Nash?

What is your brilliant plan under the current CBA?

In 2010 Red Wings had very little assets. Today they finally do.You want to give them all away for a 1 or 2 year run and then tank for the next 7 years like Toronto, Oilers, Penguins? What is your brilliant master plan?

Ho

Holland should have done better. Period.

esteef

I'm not gonna be baited into repeating myself for the 100th time, go find the answer yourself.


I didn't ask you anything.

esteef
"The Wings haven't won a Cup without Darren McCarty since 1955."

#211 Carman

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Posted 13 July 2012 - 02:05 PM

Actually I don't think Doughty is that good, and certainly never did a thing to deserve that 7 million dollar contract (which was given to him before the cup season).

As it is, we've got one of the smallest team defenses, and almost all of them are considered puck movers and not top notch defensively. AND there's only five of them!


Doughty had a 50+ point campaign at a young age.

But I agree our defense needs improvement, that's what the 17 million dollars and trade assets are for. option one was to get Suter, we came in second place, option two is explore the trade market, and it will take time for a deal to be made.

#212 kipwinger

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Posted 13 July 2012 - 02:15 PM

Doughty had a 50+ point campaign at a young age.

But I agree our defense needs improvement, that's what the 17 million dollars and trade assets are for. option one was to get Suter, we came in second place, option two is explore the trade market, and it will take time for a deal to be made.


I completely agree, I watched the same off season as everybody else did. And certainly (as I said before) nobody expected to lose Lidstrom and Staurt in the same year. So I'm not here to condemn Holland or anyone else. I like Kronwall, I like White, and Ericsson, and Smith, and even Kindl...but I don't think it's reasonable to say that there were absolutely no moves (over the last three years) that would have left our defense in better shape than it's in.

Finally, to give credit where it's due. I did like the White signing, it clearly worked out, and I did like the Quincey trade, which will. I don't think Holland did nothing, but in order to play devil's advocate I think it's only honest to side with Esteef in saying that in some cases better options were available. Erhoff and Wisniewski both have 50 point seasons too, and their cap hits are 4 and 5.5 milliion dollars respectively.

GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#213 Dabura

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Posted 13 July 2012 - 02:18 PM

I don't think Kenny is a f*** up, but let's not pretend like there were simply no conceivable options for the last couple of years.


Bangarang.

Don't Toews me, bro!


#214 Shaman

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Posted 13 July 2012 - 02:25 PM

I also want to take this time to blame every other GM beside Lombardi for not winning the cup.
You all know what you didn't do to make your teams better, how dare you all.


Holland is an easy target for everyone who thinks the glass is half empty, no amount of trades and free agents will guarantee your team a cup and to blame the GM for a perceived lack of moves is ignorant.


" Damn you Kenny! Why didn't you go back in time and move the Suters and Parises to Detroit before they where born! "


There is absolutely nothing better any of you could have done. Period.


As I have said, there are two sides that are both too extreme, your camp 'all is well, no need to worry, don't question Kenny, its blasphemy' and the 'The sky is falling and we will never be good' side. They are both starting to get on my nerves, this team is not what they were, its clear, but the sky hasn't fallen, and the Wings still have a solid roster, they will just need to claw their way in. Now to address your point, could Kenny have done better? Yes, this should be clear to anyone looking. Did he s*** the bed? I don't think so, but, inaction in a lot of peoples minds isn't much better. Personally I am in the 'wait and see' camp, I can see where both sides are coming from, and both have good points.
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Im Wasser verbrannt

#215 Electrophile

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Posted 13 July 2012 - 02:31 PM

I don't think we're going to go 0-82 this season, but I also don't think we're making the playoffs, either. I think we're going to be comfortably mediocre, never excelling, but never truly sucking either. The team has too many holes, some of which weren't filled adequately. We didn't get Parise or Suter which sucks, but that's life. The reason I don't think we're going to do that well this year has little to do with anything that happened specifically this year, aside from Lidstrom's retirement, but rather has to do with Holland not doing much of anything to improve the team over the last 4 seasons. The chickens always come home to roost, and this is our year, it would seem.

Don't take this post as a sign I'm turning my back on the team, or jumping off the bandwagon or whatever else it is you crazy kids like to throw around in an effort to appear morally superior to other fans. I'm just calling it like I see it, and what I see isn't that great.

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#216 Carman

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Posted 13 July 2012 - 02:33 PM

Erhoff and Wisniewski both have 50 point seasons too, and their cap hits are 4 and 5.5 milliion dollars respectively.


The term is what gets me on those deals, I don't think they've proven to be good enough for the number of years they wanted. I really don't think Buffalo/Columbus fans are running out to buy Erhoff/Wisniewski jerseys.

Erhoff- The idea behind a 10 year contract is that the player would eventually outperform his cap hit in the beginning to negate any complications when he enters his twilight, but take a look at his stats, do you feel there is an indication that he's worth the 40 million dollar gamble or outperforming a $4 million dollar cap hit? That's just talking about offensively, ask any Vancouver/Buffalo fan and they will tell you how he is on defense, let's just say not close to $4 million dollar's especially on the top pairing. And you said it yourself, we have plenty of puck moving defensemen, I don't think he would have been a very good fit.

Wisniewski- 6 years 5.5 million I can see the appeal, he's got potential injured last season but played well at least offensively, he can hit but he's only 6'0 not exactly menacing and tough. Much like Ian White in the toughness area. But again, defensively he is very prone to turnovers, isn't a great skater and has a problem with pinching. Again I don't think it would have been a very good fit for the Red Wings in regards to what kind of defenseman we need.

#217 kipwinger

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Posted 13 July 2012 - 02:48 PM

The term is what gets me on those deals, I don't think they've proven to be good enough for the number of years they wanted. I really don't think Buffalo/Columbus fans are running out to buy Erhoff/Wisniewski jerseys.

Erhoff- The idea behind a 10 year contract is that the player would eventually outperform his cap hit in the beginning to negate any complications when he enters his twilight, but take a look at his stats, do you feel there is an indication that he's worth the 40 million dollar gamble or outperforming a $4 million dollar cap hit? That's just talking about offensively, ask any Vancouver/Buffalo fan and they will tell you how he is on defense, let's just say not close to $4 million dollar's especially on the top pairing. And you said it yourself, we have plenty of puck moving defensemen, I don't think he would have been a very good fit.

Wisniewski- 6 years 5.5 million I can see the appeal, he's got potential injured last season but played well at least offensively, he can hit but he's only 6'0 not exactly menacing and tough. Much like Ian White in the toughness area. But again, defensively he is very prone to turnovers, isn't a great skater and has a problem with pinching. Again I don't think it would have been a very good fit for the Red Wings in regards to what kind of defenseman we need.


Well with Erhoff I doubt very seriously he plays until 40, so basically you've got a guy who will put up 30+ points a year, and runs the hell out of a powerplay, for 4 million dollars until the end of his career. I do understand being wary of that term though, and you're right, it's a gamble, but if Brian Rafalski can put up quality numbers despite having s***ty knees, at 36-37 years old, so can Erhoff...and Erhoff would be cheaper.

Wiz is as good defensively as Kronwall, hits, fights, is 20 lbs. heavier, and scores as much or more, and god knows he'd help our powerplay Plus, unlike Erhoff, he won't be all that old when his contract is up...33 I think. In all honesty I don't really understand why people thought this one was so bad. His bad defensive years were with Columbus -13, and the Islanders -18. When he was traded from the Island to Montreal he was a plus four for the remainder of the season. Excluding the two years playing on two of the worst teams imaginable, the Wiz is a career plus defenseman. He does take bad penalties now and again, but usually it's because he's overly aggressive, something I wouldn't really mind on our team.

Those are my defenses of those two guys, you're welcome to disagree, as neither of them are elite players and I'm aware of it. Obviously my list included more than just those two as well, but the point I was always trying to make is that there have been plenty of good defensemen available over the last three years. We either didn't want them, or didn't think we needed them. In lieu of our current defensive situation I'd say that those were both poor decisions.

Finally, hindsight is 20/20, I get that. But isn't it part of a general manager's job to anticipate the future (as best as possible)? Holland constantly talks about the future. So it's hard for me to say that he shouldn't have been better prepared, preparation falls pretty much exclusively on his shoulders. He's still a great GM, but I agree with Esteef, he could have handled this better.

Edited by kipwinger, 13 July 2012 - 02:49 PM.

GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#218 Johnz96

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Posted 13 July 2012 - 02:51 PM

A great post on RWC that applies her as well

Phoenician wrote:
Tripe? Did I hit a nerve or something?

Listen, I am all about hearing other’s opinions. Where I take exception, is when those opinions get to the extent of calling for the firing of someone (Ken Holland), who has been able to keep this franchise more competitive than any other. Has he done a perfect job? No. But the general consensus (at least from those in the league) seems to be he is one of the best GMs in the league. I guess I am so appreciative of what I have observed (as a life-long Red Wings fan), over the past two decades, the complete lack of respect comes across as simply ludicrous. As Red Wing fans, we have witnessed one of the best runs of success, in modern sports history (am I wrong here professor?). Yet a lot of people here seem to have absolutely no appreciation for that. Can we at least let actual failure materialize, before we organize the Ken Holland lynch mob? Maybe I am drinking the kool-aid. Mmmm… now that’s f---in good. Or maybe, it is because I had a front row seat for the Red Wings of the 70’s and that has given me a little different perspective on where this franchise currently sits. God forbid the day this franchise is forced to go into a real rebuilding period. I suppose then we will see who the bandwagon fans are. Buddy! I’m not your friend pal!

It’s not opposing opinions that drive me crazy. But the lack of respect and completely unrealistic expectations kind of rub me the wrong way. How is that for tripe?

Enjoy your menudo senor.

#219 Johnz96

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Posted 13 July 2012 - 02:57 PM

http://www.mlive.com...and_detroi.html

"Once you make those types of decisions, you're out of the game for a decade,"

Someone posted a comment about Danny Markov wanting to come back to the NHL. I tried to find something about it on the net and could not. I would love to have him back with the Wings.


I posted this real early in the morning or real late at night depending on how you look at it and i don't think most of you noticed because there were no replies or likes.

It is very radical of him to have all this cap space, lose one of the greatest defenders ever and a few other key players and not overspend on free agents (although I do think he overspent a little on the few that we got but you have to to get a UFA) and that is precisely why we will continue to be THE dominant force for a long time in Bettman's parody league.



#220 Carman

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Posted 13 July 2012 - 02:58 PM

Well with Erhoff I doubt very seriously he plays until 40, so basically you've got a guy who will put up 30+ points a year, and runs the hell out of a powerplay, for 4 million dollars until the end of his career. I do understand being wary of that term though, and you're right, it's a gamble, but if Brian Rafalski can put up quality numbers despite having s***ty knees, at 36-37 years old, so can Erhoff...and Erhoff would be cheaper.


Rafalski was an elite point producing defenseman, s***ty knee's or not he was putting up 50ish points a season, Erhoff's done it once. We already have enough puck movers which make Erhoff/Wiz unappealing to me, I feel like they wouldn't fulfill their purpose on the Red Wings, we need to get better defensively on the back end, not offensively.

And I watch a lot of hockey, +/- doesn't mean a whole lot to me, I watch a lot of Wisniewski as he's a local guy, you think Kronwall pinches a lot or takes chances? Watch a Columbus/Montreal game, Wisniewski is a very very poor defender in my opinion.





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