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#221 haroldsnepsts

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Posted 13 July 2012 - 03:00 PM

A great post on RWC that applies her as well

Phoenician wrote:
Tripe? Did I hit a nerve or something?

Listen, I am all about hearing other’s opinions. Where I take exception, is when those opinions get to the extent of calling for the firing of someone (Ken Holland), who has been able to keep this franchise more competitive than any other. Has he done a perfect job? No. But the general consensus (at least from those in the league) seems to be he is one of the best GMs in the league. I guess I am so appreciative of what I have observed (as a life-long Red Wings fan), over the past two decades, the complete lack of respect comes across as simply ludicrous. As Red Wing fans, we have witnessed one of the best runs of success, in modern sports history (am I wrong here professor?). Yet a lot of people here seem to have absolutely no appreciation for that. Can we at least let actual failure materialize, before we organize the Ken Holland lynch mob? Maybe I am drinking the kool-aid. Mmmm… now that’s f---in good. Or maybe, it is because I had a front row seat for the Red Wings of the 70’s and that has given me a little different perspective on where this franchise currently sits. God forbid the day this franchise is forced to go into a real rebuilding period. I suppose then we will see who the bandwagon fans are. Buddy! I’m not your friend pal!

It’s not opposing opinions that drive me crazy. But the lack of respect and completely unrealistic expectations kind of rub me the wrong way. How is that for tripe?

Enjoy your menudo senor.

The thing is, how many people here are actually calling for the firing of Ken Holland? It's been what, maybe 4 people? I'm not even sure because I think the jokes being made about people saying fire holland probably outnumber the people actually saying it by ten to one.

There's a huge difference in expressing your disappointment in what's happened so far this offseason and even the last few seasons, then calling for him to be fired.

#222 kipwinger

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Posted 13 July 2012 - 03:02 PM

I'm of the opinion that the reason we're the dominant force in the league is because we scout, draft, and develop talent better than just about anyone. Pair that with the fact that the organization treats players well and therefore, they're willing to stay at almost any cost. In my opinion, that's were Ken Holland earns all his accolades. He doesn't really splash in free agency or the trade deadline, but his ability to consistently produce homegrown talent, and keep it around, makes him one of the best in the league. Not because he does or doesn't spend too much money.

GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#223 Johnz96

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Posted 13 July 2012 - 03:05 PM

Doughty had a 50+ point campaign at a young age.

But I agree our defense needs improvement, that's what the 17 million dollars and trade assets are for. option one was to get Suter, we came in second place, option two is explore the trade market, and it will take time for a deal to be made.

The point was Doughty was the best d-man on the Cup winning team. Doughty is worth much more than Suter. Doughty is an all around better player already and is at an age when most Wings are still in the minors, he is still developing

The thing is, how many people here are actually calling for the firing of Ken Holland? It's been what, maybe 4 people? I'm not even sure because I think the jokes being made about people saying fire holland probably outnumber the people actually saying it by ten to one.

There's a huge difference in expressing your disappointment in what's happened so far this offseason and even the last few seasons, then calling for him to be fired.

It's not just the calling for firing, it's the insults, implying that he is an idiot is as much as calling to fire him, it would be pretty stupid to have an idiot manage your team

Edited by Johnz96, 13 July 2012 - 03:06 PM.


#224 kipwinger

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Posted 13 July 2012 - 03:06 PM

Rafalski was an elite point producing defenseman, s***ty knee's or not he was putting up 50ish points a season, Erhoff's done it once. We already have enough puck movers which make Erhoff/Wiz unappealing to me, I feel like they wouldn't fulfill their purpose on the Red Wings, we need to get better defensively on the back end, not offensively.

And I watch a lot of hockey, +/- doesn't mean a whole lot to me, I watch a lot of Wisniewski as he's a local guy, you think Kronwall pinches a lot or takes chances? Watch a Columbus/Montreal game, Wisniewski is a very very poor defender in my opinion.


The point I was trying to make with regards to Rafalski was that if he was making 6 million to put up 40-50 points in his old age, then I'd be willing to give Erhoff 4 million to put up 30-40 in his old age. That's all, I wasn't bashing Rafalski. I'm also not too wrapped up in plus minus either, but when a guy's only negative years come with the Islanders and Columbus I think there's something to take from it.

All I'm getting at is that if you take Kronwall, Smith, Kindl, Ericsson, and Quincey and add to that any of the people I mentioned above, and our defense is in MUCH better shape. And acquiring any of those guys wouldn't have been too expensive or unreasonable.

Edited by kipwinger, 13 July 2012 - 03:12 PM.

GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#225 Johnz96

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Posted 13 July 2012 - 03:21 PM

I'm of the opinion that the reason we're the dominant force in the league is because we scout, draft, and develop talent better than just about anyone. Pair that with the fact that the organization treats players well and therefore, they're willing to stay at almost any cost. In my opinion, that's were Ken Holland earns all his accolades. He doesn't really splash in free agency or the trade deadline, but his ability to consistently produce homegrown talent, and keep it around, makes him one of the best in the league. Not because he does or doesn't spend too much money.

He doesn't spend money just to spend it, if it's not the right deal he won't do it because if e did he wouldn't be able to make the right one when that opportunity comes along.
There are going to be a lot of big physical skilled players (what we need) in next year's UFA crop an some of them will be available in trades this year as salary dumps or their current teams won't be able to retain them because of poor fiscal management and until the right one comes along we will be able to give some youngsters a better look for evaluation purposes and for their development all of which will make us a much stronger team in the long run than overspending on someone because we have the cap space.

The point I was trying to make with regards to Rafalski was that if he was making 6 million to put up 40-50 points in his old age, then I'd be willing to give Erhoff 4 million to put up 30-40 in his old age. That's all, I wasn't bashing Rafalski. I'm also not too wrapped up in plus minus either, but when a guy's only negative years come with the Islanders and Columbus I think there's something to take from it.

All I'm getting at is that if you take Kronwall, Smith, Kindl, Ericsson, and Quincey and add to that any of the people I mentioned above, and our defense is in MUCH better shape. And acquiring any of those guys wouldn't have been too expensive or unreasonable.

Even in his last year Rafalski led all d-men in PPG, there is no comparison. I'm sure Holland would have loved to have Ehroff at $4mill but somebody beat him to the punch, I would much rather have Holland then whoever is managing the Sabres, I would rather have Holland then any of the other GMs and I think so would most if not all of the owners

#226 Dabura

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Posted 13 July 2012 - 04:03 PM

Trade for Ryan now, use him to seduce one (or both?!?!?!?) of Perry and Getzlaf to sign here next summer.

Don't Toews me, bro!


#227 kipwinger

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Posted 13 July 2012 - 04:04 PM

He doesn't spend money just to spend it, if it's not the right deal he won't do it because if e did he wouldn't be able to make the right one when that opportunity comes along.
There are going to be a lot of big physical skilled players (what we need) in next year's UFA crop an some of them will be available in trades this year as salary dumps or their current teams won't be able to retain them because of poor fiscal management and until the right one comes along we will be able to give some youngsters a better look for evaluation purposes and for their development all of which will make us a much stronger team in the long run than overspending on someone because we have the cap space.


Even in his last year Rafalski led all d-men in PPG, there is no comparison. I'm sure Holland would have loved to have Ehroff at $4mill but somebody beat him to the punch, I would much rather have Holland then whoever is managing the Sabres, I would rather have Holland then any of the other GMs and I think so would most if not all of the owners


That's exactly the point I was trying to make, someone else beat him to the punch. Surely, if the Sabres GM could pull the strings on a deal like that then Holland could have. I don't think he wanted to, and hence we don't have Erhoff. Also, read again, I never said Erhoff was better or comparable to Rafalski, I said he'd put up ten points less (on average) per year and cost two million dollars less. Finally, I've NEVER suggested getting rid of Holland, I've simply said that there were things that could have happened over the last three years that would have left our defense in better shape than it's in. Holland missed out (or opted out) of those situations, which doesn't mean he should be fired, but I don't know why suggesting Holland should have done something different when the opportunity clearly presented itself is such anathema with some people around here. He's a great GM, but it's not like the guy can't make mistakes once in a while. And when he does, and some of us choose to discuss it, I don't see why we're considered treasonous by some, or worse accused of wanting him replaced (which neither I nor Esteef ever suggested).

p.s. I'm not talking about you Carman, while we disagree, I do think that you've been perfectly reasonable the entire time.

Edited by kipwinger, 13 July 2012 - 04:05 PM.

GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#228 Dabura

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Posted 13 July 2012 - 04:08 PM

Finally, I've NEVER suggested getting rid of Holland, I've simply said that there were things that could have happened over the last three years that would have left our defense in better shape than it's in. Holland missed out (or opted out) of those situations, which doesn't mean he should be fired, but I don't know why suggesting Holland should have done something different when the opportunity clearly presented itself is such anathema with some people around here. He's a great GM, but it's not like the guy can't make mistakes once in a while. And when he does, and some of us choose to discuss it, I don't see why we're considered treasonous by some, or worse accused of wanting him replaced (which neither I nor Esteef ever suggested).


Where have you been all my life?

Don't Toews me, bro!


#229 Johnz96

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Posted 13 July 2012 - 04:47 PM

That's exactly the point I was trying to make, someone else beat him to the punch. Surely, if the Sabres GM could pull the strings on a deal like that then Holland could have. I don't think he wanted to, and hence we don't have Erhoff. Also, read again, I never said Erhoff was better or comparable to Rafalski, I said he'd put up ten points less (on average) per year and cost two million dollars less. Finally, I've NEVER suggested getting rid of Holland, I've simply said that there were things that could have happened over the last three years that would have left our defense in better shape than it's in. Holland missed out (or opted out) of those situations, which doesn't mean he should be fired, but I don't know why suggesting Holland should have done something different when the opportunity clearly presented itself is such anathema with some people around here. He's a great GM, but it's not like the guy can't make mistakes once in a while. And when he does, and some of us choose to discuss it, I don't see why we're considered treasonous by some, or worse accused of wanting him replaced (which neither I nor Esteef ever suggested).

p.s. I'm not talking about you Carman, while we disagree, I do think that you've been perfectly reasonable the entire time.

I don't think Vancouver would have traded Ehroff's right to Detroit
I wasn't saying it was you but people here have called for his firing and many more have implied he is incompetent and if he truly were he should be fired, but he is in actuality the best in the business

Edited by Johnz96, 13 July 2012 - 04:50 PM.


#230 Liquidsnake

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Posted 13 July 2012 - 05:20 PM

Sigh. I don't think Holland is the best in the business anymore. He's good, but he's been overtaken by other gm's. Ray Shero being one of them.

If the rumour of Semin possibly accepting a 1 year deal is true, then why the hell aren't we all over that??? Yeah he has questions about his character and all that? but 1 year at 6 mill?? there's no harm in that, not when we have money to spend.

We need help both offensively and defensively.

The only thing I agree with in his statement is that we are set in goal.

#231 Wings_Toledo

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Posted 13 July 2012 - 05:28 PM

Sigh. I don't think Holland is the best in the business anymore. He's good, but he's been overtaken by other gm's. Ray Shero being one of them.

If the rumour of Semin possibly accepting a 1 year deal is true, then why the hell aren't we all over that??? Yeah he has questions about his character and all that? but 1 year at 6 mill?? there's no harm in that, not when we have money to spend.

We need help both offensively and defensively.

The only thing I agree with in his statement is that we are set in goal.


Ray Shero had the luxury of drafting very high for years and then finally built a team around that core of high draft picks that only managed to win one Cup before some of those key players started to degrade in ability or leave (Staal). Aside from taking advantage of high draft picks, I don't see anything in particular that he has done that makes him a better GM than Holland.

If Holland thinks Semin will be a cancer in the locker room then a one-year deal is pointless, no matter how much cap space he has to work with. Let Brunner and the kids show what they can do instead of wasting roster space on an even less motivated Franzen-type.

#232 Nightfall

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Posted 13 July 2012 - 05:49 PM

Sigh. I don't think Holland is the best in the business anymore. He's good, but he's been overtaken by other gm's. Ray Shero being one of them.

If the rumour of Semin possibly accepting a 1 year deal is true, then why the hell aren't we all over that??? Yeah he has questions about his character and all that? but 1 year at 6 mill?? there's no harm in that, not when we have money to spend.

We need help both offensively and defensively.

The only thing I agree with in his statement is that we are set in goal.

The key here is UFA. He can go where he likes. Holland can offer him a one year deal at 10 million, but if he wants to make less and go to the Pens, then Holland can't do anything about it.
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#233 Barrie

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Posted 13 July 2012 - 06:11 PM

I'm looking forward to watching the young guys play this year. I don't see a point in over paying for Free Agents when Nyquist, Brunner, and Smith are ready to go.

Looking at the roster, we have a good mix of youth, vets, stars, speed, and grit. It should be a fun year!
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#234 kipwinger

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Posted 13 July 2012 - 06:16 PM

The key here is UFA. He can go where he likes. Holland can offer him a one year deal at 10 million, but if he wants to make less and go to the Pens, then Holland can't do anything about it.


Wait you mean an unrestricted free agent can sign for with any team he likes without even having to justify his decision in any way? This is bulls***! Looks like there's a new item for the CBA negotations. Get er done Bettman.

GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#235 GMRwings1983

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Posted 13 July 2012 - 07:42 PM

I'm looking forward to watching the young guys play this year. I don't see a point in over paying for Free Agents when Nyquist, Brunner, and Smith are ready to go.

Looking at the roster, we have a good mix of youth, vets, stars, speed, and grit. It should be a fun year!


You'll be watching those young guys as you're also watching old people like Bertuzzi, Holmstrom and Samuelsson wasting space out there.
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#236 Heaten

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Posted 13 July 2012 - 08:15 PM

Sigh. I don't think Holland is the best in the business anymore. He's good, but he's been overtaken by other gm's. Ray Shero being one of them.

If the rumour of Semin possibly accepting a 1 year deal is true, then why the hell aren't we all over that??? Yeah he has questions about his character and all that? but 1 year at 6 mill?? there's no harm in that, not when we have money to spend.

We need help both offensively and defensively.

The only thing I agree with in his statement is that we are set in goal.


Ray Shero? What has he won since their cup run? Isn't their playoff record basically the same as ours? Also, don't they get to pick the top players in the draft because they tanked for like 20 years? Lastly, didn't they just trade away a young, big scoring 2-way center for peanuts?

Lol, yeah, that Ray Shero is soooo great =D

#237 Echolalia

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Posted 13 July 2012 - 08:35 PM

Ray Shero? What has he won since their cup run? Isn't their playoff record basically the same as ours? Also, don't they get to pick the top players in the draft because they tanked for like 20 years? Lastly, didn't they just trade away a young, big scoring 2-way center for peanuts?

Lol, yeah, that Ray Shero is soooo great =D


Don't forget the albatross contract to Paul Martin the defensive savior. Actually, what Shero did there in signing an average player to an above average salary and term and give him an above average role to fill the defensive void is exactly what Holland refuses to do this year. Interestingly enough most Pens fans want Martin removed to get that cap space back. Funny that situation should make its way into this thread of all threads...

#238 LeftWinger

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Posted 13 July 2012 - 10:43 PM

I think that Holland should NEVER be content! EVER! He needs to be in perpetual motion! Changing, bettering, just frickin let go of Franzine! Trade Filppula for Ryan!!! Selanne wants him there and will press the Ducks to make the deal!

Just NEVER EVER be content! You have to be better than 29 other GM's...never settle...

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#239 WingsAlways

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Posted 13 July 2012 - 11:11 PM

I think that Holland should NEVER be content! EVER! He needs to be in perpetual motion! Changing, bettering, just frickin let go of Franzine! Trade Filppula for Ryan!!! Selanne wants him there and will press the Ducks to make the deal!

Just NEVER EVER be content! You have to be better than 29 other GM's...never settle...


I'd like to have Ryan on the roster as well, but Fil on a line with Selanne would be downright dangerous! Double edged sword...

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#240 beachwing

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Posted 13 July 2012 - 11:41 PM

There is obviously a reason nobody has signed Semin.....geesus christ! Maybe its as simple as Semin hasnt decided what the f*** he wants to do....anyone think of that!





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