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#241 LeftWinger

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Posted 14 July 2012 - 06:19 PM

I'd like to have Ryan on the roster as well, but Fil on a line with Selanne would be downright dangerous! Double edged sword...


Win Win....get the trade done!

Bring Fedorov Home For A Day!

 

He Needs To Retire A Red Wing.

 

When Gordie Leaves Us, the NHL MUST Retire The #9.


#242 joshy207

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Posted 14 July 2012 - 10:15 PM

Same old s*** from Holland.

He's done nothing of significance the last several deadlines and offseasons.

This offseason, his big accomplishment is signing a 4th liner that any GM could have signed and that old goof Samuelsson, who we don't need at this point. And that's coming off three early playoff exits in a row and the retirement of your best player for the last decade.

I don't know what our record will be next season, but the offseason up until now has been a disaster. But Holland's mentality is, "All is well"


Couldn't agree more!!!

This is what it is like trying to talk to some members of this board right now


This can be said for people on both sides of the argument.

That defense sounds better to me than Doughty, Greene, Mitchell, Martinez, Voynov and Scuderi
or
Salvador, Zidlicky, Harrold, Fayne, Volchenkov and Greene


You mean both the defenses that just played for the Stanley Cup? Granted, neither are standout D corps and Detroit's isn't terrible, but both NJ's and LA's are solid.

21 straight playoff appearances (might I mind you the longest streak in PROFESSIONAL SPORTS HISTORY)


Not true. While it is the longest ACTIVE streak in the North American Big 4 pro sports, it is only tied for 5th in NHL history and tied for 6th overall, behind Boston Bruins (29 years), Chicago Blackhawks (28), St Louis Blues (25), Montreal Canadiens (22), Syracuse Nationals/Philadelphia 76ers (22), and tied with Montreal and Portland TrailBlazers at 21 straight years. (via Wikipedia)

Wait Ian White, the defenseman that was +23 and 32 points for 2.8 million isn't very good? He is better than Ehroff, Kaberle, Goligoski, Bogosian, Girardi, Bouwmeester, Fowler, Erik Johnson etc. He played very very well last season. Yikes.


As someone already stated, White spent most of the season paired with Lidstrom. Most of these players would have had at least similar seasons, if not better, than White's. He was not the same without Lidstrom. And Cam Fowler is what, 20? When's the last time Detroit had a defenseman good enough to play in the NHL at that young age??

Since when is making the playoffs year in, year out "not doing anything"?
In 2010 Red Wings had very little assets.


Since he didn't have to do anything to have the team make the playoffs again. Question is, is just making the playoffs good enough for a franchise that says they expect to comepte for the Cup EVERY YEAR? Is it good enough for you?
And whose fault is it that they didn't have anyone tradeable in 2010? Certainly not mine... not yours... it is Ken Holland's.

There is absolutely nothing better any of you could have done. Period.


That's a pretty easy statement to make when there's no way to prove it right or wrong...

I'm of the opinion that the reason we're the dominant force in the league is because we scout, draft, and develop talent better than just about anyone. Pair that with the fact that the organization treats players well and therefore, they're willing to stay at almost any cost. In my opinion, that's were Ken Holland earns all his accolades. He doesn't really splash in free agency or the trade deadline, but his ability to consistently produce homegrown talent, and keep it around, makes him one of the best in the league. Not because he does or doesn't spend too much money.


That first sentence is an outdated cliche. Every organization scouts Canada, the US, and Europe/Russia thoroughly. Gone are the days of slipping Pavel Datsyuk through the cracks because nobody else saw him playing in his third-tier league. Long gone are the days of drafting Nick Lidstrom and Sergei Fedorov anywhere outside the top 5 because you weren't sure you could get them to come to the NHL. Detroit was a pioneer in Europe, but the rest of the league has followed. And every team produces late-round gems, not just Detroit. Actually, if you compare every team's draft history over the last 15-20 years, Detroit's does not really stand out, there are a handful of teams I'd put as equal or better in the scouting/drafting/developing department.
And yes, the Wings' organization treats the players VERY well... they're generally sheltered from the media and public, the Wings were one of the first teams to fly a private plane, and there are a lot of little perks we don't get to see. But that falls largely on Ilitch, it's his organizational policy, not Holland's. Holland is a benefactor of that policy himself, being a former minor-league player turned scout turned GM. He's been a part of the organization since 1983. He's just following along the company line.
My biggest issue with "keeping homegrown talent" is that, despite obvious shortcomings in some postseasons, the same players are kept around year after year after year. Holland has said (and I don't know where to find the quote, so I'll paraphrase) that he "doesn't believe in trading away assets. Once you get them, you hang on to them." Well, sometimes those assets underachieve when they're being counted on the most. Sometimes trading away one asset (for equal value in return) can inject new life into the rest of the remaining players, as they may decide they don't want to be traded away too, so maybe they better pick it up. Just because you have a recipe that works, doesn't mean you don't tinker with that recipe a little, including removing an ingredient and replacing it with something different. Because right now, I think the Wings' core is very, very complacent, and that's not a good thing in my opinion.

#243 Probie

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 02:21 AM

I see other teams trying to improve all the time. There are trades that could be made to improve the team. Hossa sought detroit out, holland didnt go looking. Too much inaction. he doesnt have to trade the team away or all the prospects, but if he doesnt do anything in the next few months I will not be impressed to say the least. He inherited a great team, and a great nucleus of people in the organization.

We have too many forward prospects maturing soon, and not nearly enough spots when they are ready, plus on average they are a bit too small. I would be incuding some of those into trades to help the team now. Even if he didnt hands down win a trade, or even slightly lost one, it wouldnt destroy our future at all, and would help fill one or two holes that need to be filled now.

Edited by Probie, 15 July 2012 - 02:22 AM.


#244 Hiei

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 03:18 AM

I will give this roster 10 games. If we aren't looking good in 10 games, I'm thinking this noise might be rumbling up from the stands...


FI-RE HOLL-AND

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#245 ShanahanMan

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 03:28 AM

Couldn't agree more!!!



This can be said for people on both sides of the argument.



You mean both the defenses that just played for the Stanley Cup? Granted, neither are standout D corps and Detroit's isn't terrible, but both NJ's and LA's are solid.



Not true. While it is the longest ACTIVE streak in the North American Big 4 pro sports, it is only tied for 5th in NHL history and tied for 6th overall, behind Boston Bruins (29 years), Chicago Blackhawks (28), St Louis Blues (25), Montreal Canadiens (22), Syracuse Nationals/Philadelphia 76ers (22), and tied with Montreal and Portland TrailBlazers at 21 straight years. (via Wikipedia)



As someone already stated, White spent most of the season paired with Lidstrom. Most of these players would have had at least similar seasons, if not better, than White's. He was not the same without Lidstrom. And Cam Fowler is what, 20? When's the last time Detroit had a defenseman good enough to play in the NHL at that young age??



Since he didn't have to do anything to have the team make the playoffs again. Question is, is just making the playoffs good enough for a franchise that says they expect to comepte for the Cup EVERY YEAR? Is it good enough for you?
And whose fault is it that they didn't have anyone tradeable in 2010? Certainly not mine... not yours... it is Ken Holland's.



That's a pretty easy statement to make when there's no way to prove it right or wrong...



That first sentence is an outdated cliche. Every organization scouts Canada, the US, and Europe/Russia thoroughly. Gone are the days of slipping Pavel Datsyuk through the cracks because nobody else saw him playing in his third-tier league. Long gone are the days of drafting Nick Lidstrom and Sergei Fedorov anywhere outside the top 5 because you weren't sure you could get them to come to the NHL. Detroit was a pioneer in Europe, but the rest of the league has followed. And every team produces late-round gems, not just Detroit. Actually, if you compare every team's draft history over the last 15-20 years, Detroit's does not really stand out, there are a handful of teams I'd put as equal or better in the scouting/drafting/developing department.
And yes, the Wings' organization treats the players VERY well... they're generally sheltered from the media and public, the Wings were one of the first teams to fly a private plane, and there are a lot of little perks we don't get to see. But that falls largely on Ilitch, it's his organizational policy, not Holland's. Holland is a benefactor of that policy himself, being a former minor-league player turned scout turned GM. He's been a part of the organization since 1983. He's just following along the company line.
My biggest issue with "keeping homegrown talent" is that, despite obvious shortcomings in some postseasons, the same players are kept around year after year after year. Holland has said (and I don't know where to find the quote, so I'll paraphrase) that he "doesn't believe in trading away assets. Once you get them, you hang on to them." Well, sometimes those assets underachieve when they're being counted on the most. Sometimes trading away one asset (for equal value in return) can inject new life into the rest of the remaining players, as they may decide they don't want to be traded away too, so maybe they better pick it up. Just because you have a recipe that works, doesn't mean you don't tinker with that recipe a little, including removing an ingredient and replacing it with something different. Because right now, I think the Wings' core is very, very complacent, and that's not a good thing in my opinion.


Good post.


I HATE JASON WILLIAMS

#246 Johnz96

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 07:11 AM

I will give this roster 10 games. If we aren't looking good in 10 games, I'm thinking this noise might be rumbling up from the stands...


FI-RE HOLL-AND

I will bite my tongue on this one

#247 stevkrause

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 07:55 AM

I will give this roster 10 games. If we aren't looking good in 10 games, I'm thinking this noise might be rumbling up from the stands...


FI-RE HOLL-AND

I'm pretty sure the general population isn't as manic as this board and if it is, I will have lost faith in the rest of the Red Wings fan base...

All I have to say about Holland and our off-season:

Here in this thread

Here in this one as well

Here in this one too

and finally

Here


Holland is a damn good GM. period.


#248 Johnz96

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 08:08 AM

I'm pretty sure the general population isn't as manic as this board and if it is, I will have lost faith in the rest of the Red Wings fan base...

A lot of the Wings fans on RWC and Bleacher report are just as
bad (refraining myself so I don't say anything that could be deemed a personal attack)

#249 chrisdetroit

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 08:15 AM

I'm with you. There are people on this board who would rather that we trade away our prospects every year for the next big thing. These same people were moaning last year when Nashville scooped up all the available guys at the trade deadline last spring. How did that work out? Look at San Jose. They make a big trade almost every year. And what do they get for it? No trips to the finals and a group of prospects that are ranked #30 in the league according to Hockey's Future. I agree with Kenny. Don't trade away your asset
Do or do not. There is no try

#250 Shaman

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 11:23 AM

I'm with you. There are people on this board who would rather that we trade away our prospects every year for the next big thing. These same people were moaning last year when Nashville scooped up all the available guys at the trade deadline last spring. How did that work out? Look at San Jose. They make a big trade almost every year. And what do they get for it? No trips to the finals and a group of prospects that are ranked #30 in the league according to Hockey's Future. I agree with Kenny. Don't trade away your asset


Yea look at Nashville, they beat the Wings, and got one round further than the Wings. And of course you didn't mention the big trade last season that LA was involved in... look where they ended up...
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#251 Wings_Toledo

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 11:34 AM

Yea look at Nashville, they beat the Wings, and got one round further than the Wings. And of course you didn't mention the big trade last season that LA was involved in... look where they ended up...


Nashville also was exposed against a better Phoenix team and lost their #2 defenseman this offseason, losing their one shot at a Cup for the next decade. L.A. relied upon goaltending through the first couple of rounds in the playoffs and by having Richards there was little chance that Carter was going to any other team.

My feeling is that Holland isn't doing anything trade-wise at this point because:

A) There may be another lockout.
B) Other teams are asking for roster players that the Wings need and a major trade would jeopardize this team's depth.

I would be surprised if any moves are made before a new CBA is reached. Patience.

#252 Heaten

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 11:37 AM

Since he didn't have to do anything to have the team make the playoffs again. Question is, is just making the playoffs good enough for a franchise that says they expect to comepte for the Cup EVERY YEAR? Is it good enough for you?
And whose fault is it that they didn't have anyone tradeable in 2010? Certainly not mine... not yours... it is Ken Holland's.


So you don't care if Red Wings make the playoffs, you just want them to win Stanley Cups every year? That's about the most absurd and illogical thing I have ever read in my entire life! How many teams made the playoffs since lockout? I'm counting ONE.

If you make the playoffs, you have a CHANCE to win the Stanley Cup, just ask the LA Kings...

Yes, it is Kenny Hollands fault they didn't have any tradeable assets in 2010, he was too busy building Stanley Cup teams and SCF teams. If he said F*** the cup and tanked for top picks, he would have better trade-able assets right now. Unfortunately we won the cup, got higher picks, and those higher picks are still deveoping and currently have little trade value.

People need to have realistic expectations. F***!

#253 joshy207

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 12:18 PM

So you don't care if Red Wings make the playoffs, you just want them to win Stanley Cups every year? That's about the most absurd and illogical thing I have ever read in my entire life! How many teams made the playoffs since lockout? I'm counting ONE.

If you make the playoffs, you have a CHANCE to win the Stanley Cup, just ask the LA Kings...

Yes, it is Kenny Hollands fault they didn't have any tradeable assets in 2010, he was too busy building Stanley Cup teams and SCF teams. If he said F*** the cup and tanked for top picks, he would have better trade-able assets right now. Unfortunately we won the cup, got higher picks, and those higher picks are still deveoping and currently have little trade value.

People need to have realistic expectations. F***!


Please go back and re-read what I wrote word-for-word. I said THE FRANCHISE EXPECTS TO COMPETE FOR STANLEY CUPS EVERY YEAR. That is something Ken Holland says all the time. I don't say that, nor do I think they're going to win every year. Besides, missing the playoffs once every 5 years or so gives you a chance to reload with better draft picks while still giving you plenty of opportunities in the postseason. One big thing Detroit lacks right now is young players who are major contributors.

#254 YougotDatsyuked

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 12:49 PM

There are valid points to each side of this argument. The core of this team is aging there is no doubt about that, and since 09 the team has been regressing. I don't have a problem with seeing how the new pieces fit for the first part of the season, however if it doesn't work out then moves need to be made. I would like to think Semin paired with dats would solve the offensive concerns but if holland doesn't make a move on him I can understand why due to his baggage.

#255 Heaten

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 01:02 PM

Please go back and re-read what I wrote word-for-word. I said THE FRANCHISE EXPECTS TO COMPETE FOR STANLEY CUPS EVERY YEAR. That is something Ken Holland says all the time. I don't say that, nor do I think they're going to win every year. Besides, missing the playoffs once every 5 years or so gives you a chance to reload with better draft picks while still giving you plenty of opportunities in the postseason. One big thing Detroit lacks right now is young players who are major contributors.


And when you make the playoffs, you are competing for the Stanley Cup. Why tank when Holland is building playoff teams every year? I don't get your logic. If you were GM, you'd be fired before you start... This is the NU: NHL where 8th seed teams can win cups. When you make the playoffs, anything can happen.

#256 Dabura

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 01:04 PM

I would like to think Semin paired with dats would solve the offensive concerns but if holland doesn't make a move on him I can understand why due to his baggage.


I'm sorry to be a broken record, but - Semin would not go a long way in helping. He's not physical; you won't see him mucking it up in the corners or crashing the crease. He's not D-minded; you won't see him busting his balls on the backcheck - and that's if you see him backcheck at all. He's not really high-intensity. His work ethic, his commmitment are highly questionable. On being boxed out by a big, physial, defense-oriented team in their zone, he, like all of our current "scorers," will settle for low-percentage perimeter shots. He might have more success with this than our current guys; he has a blistering shot. But really, it'd be more of the same. Our top-6 needs some new ingredients, a new dimension or two or three or four.

Edited by Dabura, 15 July 2012 - 01:13 PM.

Don't Toews me, bro!


#257 Johnz96

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 04:11 PM

In Kenny we trust.
Unless you're... not smart (euphemism)

#258 Doc Holliday

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 04:16 PM

I think that Holland should NEVER be content! EVER! He needs to be in perpetual motion! Changing, bettering, just frickin let go of Franzine! Trade Filppula for Ryan!!! Selanne wants him there and will press the Ducks to make the deal!

Just NEVER EVER be content! You have to be better than 29 other GM's...never settle...


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#259 Shaman

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 04:30 PM

Nashville also was exposed against a better Phoenix team and lost their #2 defenseman this offseason, losing their one shot at a Cup for the next decade. L.A. relied upon goaltending through the first couple of rounds in the playoffs and by having Richards there was little chance that Carter was going to any other team.

My feeling is that Holland isn't doing anything trade-wise at this point because:

A) There may be another lockout.
B) Other teams are asking for roster players that the Wings need and a major trade would jeopardize this team's depth.

I would be surprised if any moves are made before a new CBA is reached. Patience.

First, Quick was good, but without that trade they wouldn't have made the playoffs.

Second, Nashville got beat because of their lack of experience in the post season, Phoenix were veterans compared to them, and they played like it.

Finally: There WILL NOT be another lockout, both sides know that it will kill the NHL if they have another lock out so soon. Both sides will go in with big demands, but count on the new CBA to look a lot like the current one with some of the loophole closed. If the cap goes down, expect all contracts to be adjusted accordingly, there will not be a gush of talent on the market after the new CBA.
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#260 joshy207

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 05:47 PM

And when you make the playoffs, you are competing for the Stanley Cup. Why tank when Holland is building playoff teams every year? I don't get your logic. If you were GM, you'd be fired before you start... This is the NU: NHL where 8th seed teams can win cups. When you make the playoffs, anything can happen.


Your first sentence is where we differ. I think, while the teams have always been good enough to make the playoffs, they haven't been real Cup contenders. I think that shows in some stretches, where the Wings can't score goals despite firing 40+ shots at the goalie. Their style of play is great for the regular season, but everyone knows the playoffs are a different brand of hockey, and most years, the Wings just don't have that game in them. Too many shots from the perimeter, not enough driving the net, not enough ugly goals, and they don't change their style or play with any desperation until it's too late (see Anaheim 2003, Nashville 2012, and a few in between). Yes, an 8 seed beat a 6 seed this year, but both teams had the right mix of players, coaching, goaltending, and health to win. A lot of the games were ugly. I just don't see this Wings team having the right players to win the Cup as they stand right now. And, while I will admit I am not a Holland fan, I'll tell anyone who asks that this offseason is far from over, he has plenty of time to make trades and sign free agents to improve the roster.





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