324 replies to this topic

[haroldsnepsts]

Plus the Wings only have 6 D-men signed right now, and Janik just signed in Germany. If someone got injured, who'd fill in?

At the very least you'd think he'd pick up a 6/7 d-man. Knowing Holland's fondness for boomeranging players, it'll probably be Commie.

[Frozen-Man]

Let's talk about our weaknesses. Obviously we took a step down on D, and we could use a top 6 sniper (who couldn't). Those things aside, I believe our BIGGEST weakness the past three seasons has been lack of motivation / heart, that intangible 'gusto' that a team needs to win the cup.... call it what you want. In that area I think we made strides with the addition of Tootoo, Samuelsson (he's a chirper), and a presumed injection of youth in Smith / Nyquist. I think we could add even more of that intangible if we manage to sign Doan, though I don't think that's likely. At any rate, I’m very optimistic on that front.

I agree about the biggest weakness being lack of motivation, and in addition to the things that you mentioned as providing you optimism I think that the other players may have more motivation/drive this year as well. Each year being picked preseason as a contender has got to impact motivation, this year they are somewhat underdogs, written off, and being disparaged as a team. I think that may help motivate the whole team to prove that they are good, something that the hockey world (and many of the Wings players as well) have taken for granted for a few years now. How many times have you either said or heard if they would play the whole 60 minutes they could win almost every game. I think they believed that, I think they assumed they could coast through a period or two and then play hard and they were a good enough team to win most games. I doubt they feel that way this year and it may impact how the team as a whole plays night in and night out.

It's also a little funny to hear him say that given the contracts he gave to Zetterberg and especially Franzen.

If I'm not mistaken I think Holland has said in the past that you have to have a couple of those long term contracts but that very many of them will hinder you for years. He may have meant that already having two such contract adding another two would be detrimental.

[ElCapitan]

This is what I posted over the current "Doan" thread:

From Kukla's Korner: http://www.kuklaskor...n_standing_pat/

Alexander Semin’s waiting for one thing: Shane Doan. Once Doan signs, so will Semin. For less. If you think it’s his attitude that has kept Ken Holland from signing him already, you’re wrong. The Wing Way can solve attitude issues and I believe Semin would take a one-year deal to prove the anti-Semintics wrong.

But not until the Doan decision is made.

And yes, the Wings could use Semin. Of course, he’d play with Datsyuk. Of course he’d help the power play. Absolutely, without question he’d immediately attain Enigma status and he’d be a major topic of discussion, right here, every day. Good or bad.

Yes, Ken Holland’s considering him. And this is a lie:
MLive

“I don’t think we need a whole bunch of guys,” Holland said at Wednesday’s Hockeytown Winter Classic press conference. “I think if we can get one more player, (we’ll be fine).”

There's a lot of posturing going on, and almost all of the lack of player signings are out of anyone's control. It's almost like trying to control the weather. Good luck with that.

If an appealing move can be made, I really think Holland will try. There just not that much above the crap line this year.

[sleepwalker]

Seriously.... I even posted the quote. How is it that you are the ONLY one reading it that way then?

He is not. I read it the same way, because, well, thats exactly what it said. That Quincy and Smith will "replace" (the exact word he used) Stuart and Lidstrom.

Oh, and I am not some doom and gloom negative person about this off season, I've been staying positive and hoping for the best, so you cannot attempt to refute MY comment by passive attacks and accusing me of only being negative like you did with him.

Lets give it a rest with the Holland bashing ...

You know what I'd like to see people give a rest? (in general, not just here at this forum) Calling anyone with a different opinion or alternate suggestion a "hater" or "basher"

Those are such lame, overused internet terms. Don't agree with me? Oh, you're a hater then. Post any other comments or alternate suggestion? Quit bashing.

Lame.....

[SaCkaveli20]

Holland sure better hope Smith isn't a bust.

[haroldsnepsts]

He is not. I read it the same way, because, well, thats exactly what it said. That Quincy and Smith will "replace" (the exact word he used) Stuart and Lidstrom.

Oh, and I am not some doom and gloom negative person about this off season, I've been staying positive and hoping for the best, so you cannot attempt to refute MY comment by passive attacks and accusing me of only being negative like you did with him.

Well, they will replace him. But that doesn't mean it's an equal replacement.

The Wings lost one of the greatest D-men to ever play the game, and a solid middle pairing guy. Quincey will hopefully be okay but not great once he gets used to the pairings and system. They're bringing in a talented but very green rookie who has played a whopping 14 NHL games in his career. And now they're also relying on Kindl, who couldn't manage to hold the #6 spot convincingly and didn't see a lick of ice time in the playoffs.

It's hard to feel good about the Wings defense right now.

[LeftWinger]

I have been easy on Holland thus far....if Doan signs for less than $5M somewhere else.....then Holland is done. I hope he isnt really content with his current lineup.....so, what it was Parise or noone? Suter or noone? Holland needs to let go of Franzine already.....he is absolutely crap! Package Franzine for someone.....

[Wingsfan72]

I'm pretty sure if we're in a lot of trouble Holland will make the necessary trade. At this point it's like what others have said, after Suter and Parise there were not very many (if any) other impact players available. I'm disappointed that there wasn't a big move made either, but I think that just comes standard with being a Wings fan in the off season. Why don't we give it a couple of months into the season before we jump ship, eh?

On a positive note, doesn't this mean that Kenny can pick up Weber next year? Which is what we all wanted before the whole Suter ordeal.



Edit: sp...have not slept

Edited by Wingsfan72, 12 July 2012 - 10:51 AM.

[StormJH1]

(First, serious props to ElCapitan for the Stevie Ray Vaughan guitar as an avatar - that's an iconic instrument)

I think we need to calm down a little bit and actually read what Holland said. He said we don't need "a whole bunch of guys". He even confirmed that they're looking at perhaps one more. This team has 15 NHL forwards (not including Abdelkader) and 5 defenseman (not including Quincey) already under contract. I wouldn't be surprised if they signed a few depth defenseman, while still looking at a guy like Doan or Semin through FA.

I know that fans are disappointed about Parise and Suter, but (a) that wasn't Kenny's fault, and (b) it's time to move on. The Shea Weber situation is still a dark horse out there. Perhaps there's some other trade where we swap out one or more forwards for a D (certainly would add more sense to the Tootoo and Sammy signings). If this team added Semin tomorrow and did nothing else, the sun would still come up tomorrow. Obviously I have concerns about the defensive corps, but if the options aren't there, you only exacerbate the problem by throwing absurd contracts at borderline players like Matt Carle.

[WingsAlways]

Well, it is tough to face the fact that we are not a contender.... I took it for granted for 19 years that I followed the Red Wings. Any advices?

I remember when we weren't a contender, when we didn't have a snowball's chance in hell of making the playoffs let alone winning the cup. I stood by my Wings then and I'll continue to do so.

As a Wings fan you can't help but notice all the animosity, even hate for our beloved franchise. That's because even where our roster stands Detroit is still a force to be reckoned with and that team you do not want to play.

[Wings_Toledo]

Not spending all the cap space this season while other teams overspend for average players will give Holland an advantage next season when going after top talent. I trust that he knows what he's doing.

[StormJH1]

On a positive note, doesn't this mean the Kenny can pick up Weber next year? Which is what we all wanted before the while Suter ordeal.

If there were any level of certainty in signing Weber next year, I would be fine with just riding out 2012-13 with any small potatoes depth signings we used to patch up the back end of the defense. But look what happened this offseason - you can't predict or rely on free agency as a future strategy for team building. Nashville, after all, is $30 million under the cap, and Rinne/Erat/Gaustad are the only players signed to 3 years or more. The team may have financial problems, but if Weber finds a reason to stay, they should be able to figure out resigning him...and then what?

If we have an opportunity to do an offer sheet, I don't see a better gamble out there than this one. And I've yet to hear a compelling reason as to why we shouldn't risk it. Draft picks? The Wings never have good ones anyway, and have proven time and time again they're willing to trade them away for the likes of Bertuzzi, Stuart, and Kyle freaking Quincey at the deadline anyway. Concerns about forcing the Predators' hand in matching Weber, rather than seeing him go to a division contender? Well, first, we have no idea if NAS will even be in our division after next year, and second, if they're willing to match our absurdly high offer, then they probably would've signed him anyway.

[Z Winged Dangler]

Sorry, but conceding another hockey season (Babs didn't think his roster last year was going to be able to compete) won't fly in this town. Not signing one of the top 5 talents in the league because "we don't like what we hear about him" is ok if your team already has a sniper or two. Well, we don't.

I understand being smart with your money, but when you straight up DON'T SPEND money you have, you are more or less throwing it away. We had $5 million in cap space last year that we didn't spend. Essentially, the Detroit Red Wings cap sat $5 million lower than the NHL cap. That makes no sense to me....

Teams that spend right to the cap and still aren't contenders are stupid. They have no option to bring in high profile players when they become available. If Holland gets a guy like Vandermeer and tries out our best prospects this year and figures out who's good enough moving forward, are you gonna complain next summer when we have a chance to get Weber, Getzlaf and Perry? I didn't think so. And not eveyone is gonna sign a 1 year contract with the Wings to get pushed aside next offseason when Holland wants to dish out money to a WAY better UFA crop. No need to spend right to the cap and waste the owners money if you don't have to. And some guys will be getting raises next year and the years after that, so having some cap space handy IS a good thing.

[WingsAlways]

If there were any level of certainty in signing Weber next year, I would be fine with just riding out 2012-13 with any small potatoes depth signings we used to patch up the back end of the defense. But look what happened this offseason - you can't predict or rely on free agency as a future strategy for team building. Nashville, after all, is $30 million under the cap, and Rinne/Erat/Gaustad are the only players signed to 3 years or more. The team may have financial problems, but if Weber finds a reason to stay, they should be able to figure out resigning him...and then what?

If we have an opportunity to do an offer sheet, I don't see a better gamble out there than this one. And I've yet to hear a compelling reason as to why we shouldn't risk it. Draft picks? The Wings never have good ones anyway, and have proven time and time again they're willing to trade them away for the likes of Bertuzzi, Stuart, and Kyle freaking Quincey at the deadline anyway. Concerns about forcing the Predators' hand in matching Weber, rather than seeing him go to a division contender? Well, first, we have no idea if NAS will even be in our division after next year, and second, if they're willing to match our absurdly high offer, then they probably would've signed him anyway.

I almost believe that Weber would sign with Detroit out of pure spite. Wishful thinking on my part perhaps but isn't he pissed off at Suter for leaving? Not to mention he and David Poile aren't on the best of terms...

[dirtydangles]

Plus the Wings only have 6 D-men signed right now, and Janik just signed in Germany. If someone got injured, who'd fill in?

I guess it would be Lashoff or even Almqvist. Good opportunity for young guys to get a few games taste of the nhl rather than have some vet getting sour sitting around waiting. I know i felt guilty having commie ride pine, I mean the guy was an nhler. if the kids are vying for a shot its always good.

[ElCapitan]

(First, serious props to ElCapitan for the Stevie Ray Vaughan guitar as an avatar - that's an iconic instrument)

Thanks, got to see it in Austin this spring!

[Frozen-Man]

He is not. I read it the same way, because, well, thats exactly what it said. That Quincy and Smith will "replace" (the exact word he used) Stuart and Lidstrom.

There are two ways of looking at the term "replace" though. Replace could mean either substitute or it could mean equivalent (for example if you get a flat tire you might replace it with the donut - it would replace it in the sense it is a substitute but it would not be considered the equivalent). I don't believe that anyone thinks Holland meant that Quincy and Smith will be the equivalent of Lidstrom and Stuart (which was the insinuation that caused SwedeLundin77 to balk) however, it is correct to say that at this point Quincey and Smith have to be the substitutes for Lids and Stuart.

[Doc Holliday]

Now he's in the press basically trying to have it both ways, patting himself on the back that the Wings were one of two teams that met with Parise, but then spins it that maybe their 13 year term (which I thought the Wings matched?) was too long with his "out of the game for a decade" comment. It's also a little funny to hear him say that given the contracts he gave to Zetterberg and especially Franzen.

Do you have the full quote? Because I was under the impression that quote was taken woefully out of context when I found the full statement he made about that situation.

[StormJH1]

I almost believe that Weber would sign with Detroit out of pure spite. Wishful thinking on my part perhaps but isn't he pissed off at Suter for leaving? Not to mention he and David Poile aren't on the best of terms...

I'm hearing he's not happy. What that means, who knows. Perhaps he's also willing to ride out whatever happens with another year in NAS, seeing these massive paydays. I was interested in this RFA topic so I did some research (Why is there no Shea Weber thread? I created one awhile ago, and it was quickly deleted. Can't fathom why Shea Weber is an inappropriate topic, but we need a thread for the Wojtek Wolski signing. Anyway...)


These are the known offer sheets since the lockout:

Ryan Kesler Sept 12, 2006 ^[4] 1 year, $1.9 million Vancouver Canucks Philadelphia Flyers Matched - Thomas Vanek July 6, 2007^[22] 7 years, $50 million Buffalo Sabres Edmonton Oilers Matched - Dustin Penner July 26, 2007 5 years, $21.5 million Anaheim Ducks Edmonton Oilers Accepted 1st, 2nd, and 3rd round picks in 2008 David Backes July 1, 2008 3 years, $7.5 million St. Louis Blues Vancouver Canucks Matched - Steve Bernier July 8, 2008 1 year, $2.5 million Vancouver Canucks St. Louis Blues Matched - Niklas Hjalmarsson July 9, 2010 4 years, $14 million Chicago Blackhawks San Jose Sharks Matched -

There is some sort of "taboo" culture against them in the NHL. I think part of it is the "gentleman's culture" and the fear of retribution, but as this HFBoards poster explains, there are other concerns:

If the player, his agent, or one of the two GMs involved doesn't tell the media, no one knows. If an offer sheet goes unsigned, it does no one any good to let the media know, so outside of those 4 or so people, no one ever knows.

The reason offer sheets aren't more frequently successful is that they're self defeating. If you offer sheet a player, their controlling team has the opportunity to match. That means if you want to sign the player away, you need to offer more money than the controlling team is willing to match. On top of this, you also have to give up draft picks (which you'd need to have the right ones in the first place) to acquire the asset. Most of the time it just works out better to try make a trade with the team for slightly greater than the offer sheet compensation so you can sign the player at a more reasonable salary.

Okay, so let's sort this out - Weber is around $7.5 million averaged salary, so compensation would be two 1st's, a 2nd, and a 3rd rounder. I believe the Wings still have those 2013 picks, correct? The Wings offer some massive deal, say, 12 years/$105 million ($8.75 million cap hit) and front-load the crap out of it. If NAS could match that, wouldn't they already have offered it? Do we really care about losing those picks if the payoff is SHEA WEBER?

And if Nashville did somehow match, we've really lost nothing except for the assumption that Weber might have signed with us next season anyway, instead of the 28 other teams. I think it would be pretty arrogant of Holland to just assume that Detroit is automatic destination that can lure anyone away from PIT, PHI, or any other decent up-and-coming team with cap room.

[TheXym]

Parity = evening out among the teams of the league. Parody = the panic of some of the fan base, OR what Mike Milbury was as a GM.

There are so many layers to consider beyond just this season. I think realistically the changing if the guard for the Wings was coming, but many were trying to hold it at bay.

Some of Holland's comments have to be taken as posturing, as an attempt to minimize the price gouging on trades by other GM's. Someone else said it, the Wings have been the NHL gold standard franchise for close to 20 years, and the other GM's know it. They are NOT going to do Holland any favors.

The "old comment" about Wings fans being arrogant is seeming to ring true with some of the flying off the handle comments posted recently. It was a thin UFA crop this year after Suter and Parise. Holland made a good effort, period.

There are long term implications to the new CBA, including re-signing our own players after this season (Howard and Filppula). Holland has to have more knowledge of the CBA negotiations than us, and it may be that some things are going to change in ways we aren't foreseeing but he is, and he's considering that "inside info".

Plus, it is several MONTHS before opening night, no reason to panic. I'm willing to give Holland some time.