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ShanahanMan

Holland Content with Current Roster

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And I'm sorry, I don't buy for a second that anyone can honestly say they're comfortable with our chances of being a successful team with our defense consisting of Kronwall, White, Ericsson, Smith, Quincey and Kindl. I mean, really...? Really...? I'm not knocking them as individual players right now, I'm just saying, look at that group and remind yourself that it's the core of your defense right now. Really consider that Lidstrom and Stuart are gone from that group. Maybe it hasn't fully sunk in yet. Maybe you're good at forgetting how lost this team looked last year in March without Lidstrom? I don't blame you; we all wanted to forget that.

Let's just forget about making the playoffs for a second...

Are we even a .500 team with that defense? Maybe in a couple years with more NHL development for the youngans, but next year? Seriously?

Don't forget or overlook how important Lidstrom's contribution to our offense was as well.

I don't want to s*** on anyone trying to be optimistic; it's a noble thing and I will cheer this team on next season no matter what. But none the less, I don't think people have really accepted what we're going to be dealing with next year, nor are people willing to admit how much Holland has mishandled the whole situation the last 3-4 years. You can talk all you want about how "smart" it is to not make ridiculous reactionary moves now, but we never should've been in this position.

And we've been talking about how "smart" Holland is for sitting on his hands because of the "cap" or some player's "potential" for four summers in a row now, and here we are: Lidstrom's gone, Stuart's gone, Hudler's gone again (I'm completely okay with that one, but he still scored goals and that hasn't been our strong suit...). We didn't land our primary free agent targets. We added Tootoo and an older Samuelson (and a good backup goalie, but hopefully that'll be a fairly inconsequential addition this year). Our defense as of now features Kronwall, White, Ericsson, Smith, Quincey and Kindl. No Lidstrom. No Stuart.

Very, very, very few options left.

Smart?

It all depends-- do you honestly think this team is a few pieces from being a legitimate contender 5 years from now? No. Once Dats an Z are outside that window things look pretty bleak.

Time to man up and accept that we might need a better draft position than where we've been for 20 years-- basically starting in the second round.

Lottery picks please?

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Guest Johnz96

And I'm sorry, I don't buy for a second that anyone can honestly say they're comfortable with our chances of being a successful team with our defense consisting of Kronwall, White, Ericsson, Smith, Quincey and Kindl. I mean, really...? Really...? I'm not knocking them as individual players right now, I'm just saying, look at that group and remind yourself that it's the core of your defense right now. Really consider that Lidstrom and Stuart are gone from that group. Maybe it hasn't fully sunk in yet. Maybe you're good at forgetting how lost this team looked last year in March without Lidstrom? I don't blame you; we all wanted to forget that.

Let's just forget about making the playoffs for a second...

Are we even a .500 team with that defense? Maybe in a couple years with more NHL development for the youngans, but next year? Seriously?

Don't forget or overlook how important Lidstrom's contribution to our offense was as well.

I don't want to s*** on anyone trying to be optimistic; it's a noble thing and I will cheer this team on next season no matter what. But none the less, I don't think people have really accepted what we're going to be dealing with next year, nor are people willing to admit how much Holland has mishandled the whole situation the last 3-4 years. You can talk all you want about how "smart" it is to not make ridiculous reactionary moves now, but we never should've been in this position.

And we've been talking about how "smart" Holland is for sitting on his hands because of the "cap" or some player's "potential" for four summers in a row now, and here we are: Lidstrom's gone, Stuart's gone, Hudler's gone again (I'm completely okay with that one, but he still scored goals and that hasn't been our strong suit...). We didn't land our primary free agent targets. We added Tootoo and an older Samuelson (and a good backup goalie, but hopefully that'll be a fairly inconsequential addition this year). Our defense as of now features Kronwall, White, Ericsson, Smith, Quincey and Kindl. No Lidstrom. No Stuart.

Very, very, very few options left.

Smart?

That defense sounds better to me than Doughty, Greene, Mitchell, Martinez, Voynov and Scuderi

or

Salvadore, Zidlicky, Harrold, Fayne, Volchenkov and Greene

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Or the more likely reason is that he's just playing the media, and you always say you are happy with your team no matter what. Holland can't go out in an interview and say we NEED a top 6 forward and top pairing defensemen!!!! That's just going to hurt him in the trade market.

This is what I was thinking. We (he) knew from the get go we were going to have a rougher time as teams also knew how much doe we (he) have (has). My guess is now the kinda plan were on is were we (he) sits back for a couple weeks (which he also said he expects it to pick up in a couple weeks a few days ago) and have agents think he's BSing...but he's not, but he is, but...Holland you are one crazy sob. Get it done Kenny!

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Imagine if Flippula continues to go forward and keeps scoring? There's so many intangibles with this team. I believe Datsyuk can get back to 90+ points I think you can say last year a bad year for him. the year before Datsyuk was over a point per game had he not been injured he would have been on the league leaders. Franzen can snap back. It was only two years ago Datsyuk, Zetterberg and Franzen were playing close to their best hockey.

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Imagine if Flippula continues to go forward and keeps scoring? There's so many intangibles with this team. I believe Datsyuk can get back to 90+ points I think you can say last year a bad year for him. the year before Datsyuk was over a point per game had he not been injured he would have been on the league leaders. Franzen can snap back. It was only two years ago Datsyuk, Zetterberg and Franzen were playing close to their best hockey.

Too. Many. Ifs.

If Datsyuk, Zetterberg, And Franzen go back to old form. If Filpulla continues to progress, Smith, Quinecy, Kindl and Ericsson take the next step. That's what you seem not to grasp, this team COULD be good, but, unless everything goes right, they aren't even as good as they were last year. I expect them to regress to a bubble team, because I am realistic, I will cheer for them if they are a bottom feeder or SC winners, but I won't delude myself.

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I think our defense very well "could" be much better off than were all giving them credit for right now.

Kronwall is our guy - and he would be a top pairing guy on any other team in the league right now aside from Chicago.

White - hes serviceable, competes hard, and is a better player than he gets credit with. Hes good - not great, hence why hes always the peice going to other way in trades to sweeten a deal.

Ericsson - despite the constant flaming he gets on here has come along way. Defensivley hes vastly under-rated and uses that big body pretty effectively while remaining more mobile than most his size. His penchant for turnovers on the first breakout pass have also gone way down. Its time for him to earn his contract and I think with a bigger role he will.

Smith - well, Schultz is being heralded as the next Paul Coffey already. Jake Gardiner as a rookie threw up 30 points for the leafs and is the biggest untouchable on their team now ... meanwhile Smitty is tougher, more physical, and put home more points at Wisconsin than either of them ever did. Hes a huge piece and very well could be looked upon as our 2nd dman by christmas.

Quincey- offensive upside is there, if healthy a 30-40 pts campaign is probably were hell land which is pretty good for a 4/5 dman in the NHL. If he makes simple plays on the breakout and improves his coverage he could be a pleasant suprise. (I dont like his face or his style period. I hope he canchange that).

Kindl- weve all heard by now, he had more apples than Lids at even strength last year. Well, I stilldont see a guy who is tough, mobile, smart, or physically strong enough to be a full-time NHL player. Id much rather him be our number 7 and only play when someone is hurt or needs a rest.

Our defence is mid pack - but not awful. If we can swing a deal for a Boumeester or Yandle that would be huge - but Im not totally counting on it.

Until the new cap-hit is established I dont think Kenny is going to make a trade (espeiclaly for JBo) because he knows whos probably going to be getting a visit next July 1st. If we get Weber next summer - we will all be thanking god for our unasnwered prayers over the last few months. 11 Months ago the big guy said he wanted to come here and from a few conversations I've had with people around him it seems his agent is steering him this way as well. Not going to drop sources or anything - and if we have an awful year combined with last years poor end things might totally change in his mind if they havent already. But know this - were on his radar, and if this team can tread water and at least make the playoffs again we have a really good shot at getting Weber next summer.

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Guest Johnz96

I think our defense very well "could" be much better off than were all giving them credit for right now.

Kronwall is our guy - and he would be a top pairing guy on any other team in the league right now aside from Chicago.

White - hes serviceable, competes hard, and is a better player than he gets credit with. Hes good - not great, hence why hes always the peice going to other way in trades to sweeten a deal.

Ericsson - despite the constant flaming he gets on here has come along way. Defensivley hes vastly under-rated and uses that big body pretty effectively while remaining more mobile than most his size. His penchant for turnovers on the first breakout pass have also gone way down. Its time for him to earn his contract and I think with a bigger role he will.

Smith - well, Schultz is being heralded as the next Paul Coffey already. Jake Gardiner as a rookie threw up 30 points for the leafs and is the biggest untouchable on their team now ... meanwhile Smitty is tougher, more physical, and put home more points at Wisconsin than either of them ever did. Hes a huge piece and very well could be looked upon as our 2nd dman by christmas.

Quincey- offensive upside is there, if healthy a 30-40 pts campaign is probably were hell land which is pretty good for a 4/5 dman in the NHL. If he makes simple plays on the breakout and improves his coverage he could be a pleasant suprise. (I dont like his face or his style period. I hope he canchange that).

Kindl- weve all heard by now, he had more apples than Lids at even strength last year. Well, I stilldont see a guy who is tough, mobile, smart, or physically strong enough to be a full-time NHL player. Id much rather him be our number 7 and only play when someone is hurt or needs a rest.

Our defence is mid pack - but not awful. If we can swing a deal for a Boumeester or Yandle that would be huge - but Im not totally counting on it.

Until the new cap-hit is established I dont think Kenny is going to make a trade (espeiclaly for JBo) because he knows whos probably going to be getting a visit next July 1st. If we get Weber next summer - we will all be thanking god for our unasnwered prayers over the last few months. 11 Months ago the big guy said he wanted to come here and from a few conversations I've had with people around him it seems his agent is steering him this way as well. Not going to drop sources or anything - and if we have an awful year combined with last years poor end things might totally change in his mind if they havent already. But know this - were on his radar, and if this team can tread water and at least make the playoffs again we have a really good shot at getting Weber next summer.

Bouwmeester makes twice as much as Kronwall and is half as good.

You don't like Quincey's face? Or was that a typing mistake?

Edited by Johnz96

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Quincey- offensive upside is there, if healthy a 30-40 pts campaign is probably were hell land which is pretty good for a 4/5 dman in the NHL. If he makes simple plays on the breakout and improves his coverage he could be a pleasant suprise. (I dont like his face or his style period. I hope he canchange that).

If the Wings pay for his plastic surgery, would it count against the cap?

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Will your opinion of him change if the Red Wings don't make it into the playoffs come spring of 2013 - 'cause as of right now - with this roster - I see us finishing anywhere from 7th thru 10th in the Conference.

Not one bit - one down year does not tarnish an entire body of work and it's that exact mentality that has my so annoyed with the general spoiled brat mentality on here lately....

Holland has been an integral part of our brain trust for over 20 years and adapted AMAZINGLY to the salary cap era (take a look at how well all of the other previous big market clubs have done since this was implemented) and has brought us (or been part of) 4 Stanley cups, 21 straight playoff appearances (might I mind you the longest active streak in PROFESSIONAL SPORTS), countless division titles and most importantly, a chance to win it all every year... that is damn near impossible in today's sports landscape, and I guarantee 29 other clubs would KILL to have such a horrible problem on their hands...

Even if we miss the playoffs this year (which I don't think we will), Holland will re-tool and put us back within Stanley Cup contention in no time, and when we're a perennial favorite again, win even MORE cups and titles under his reign, the people with this mentality will still be waiting for the team to have ONE year that's down again, so they can yell "fire him"... It's laughable...

Might I remind everyone that during his tenure we've also recovered from unexpectedly losing Konstantinov (a perennial Norris hopeful), unexpectedly losing Jiri Fischer(who was well on his way to being one of the premier big dmen in the league), adapting to a salary cap era AND now, he is losing the best (arguably) defenseman of all time and Holland WILL, as always, adapt to this... just because he didn't pull a rabbit out of his ass, when nothing was available right now, doesn't make him less capable and NOT chasing after marginal players to fill a hole they can't anyway, IS what makes him even better...

I am not commenting on this topic any further because it's like screaming at the deaf and if those who disagree can't understand all these points and take them for what they are, I don't know what else to say... As I said before, everyone has the right to be upset this off-season hasn't gone as planned, but COME ON.

Edited by stevkrause

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I feel like a lot of people are underestimating the impact Smith will have. The kid is a pure stud and will prove why he's one of the most talked about rookies in Detroit's system. I have a feeling Smith will make Holland look like a genius for not blowing up the team for a 1 year run.

Edit:

Wasn't it Babcock that made the comment "Smith is the type of player you build a team around"?

I agree whole-heartedly with this. The logic that we have to address any holes with RFA's or trades is silly. Why do we even have a farm system? Why spend the time and money to scout, recruit, and develop prospects if management is going to fill every available roster spot from outside the organization? Was it right to attempt to land Suter? Yes. Was it right to NOT overspend? Absolutely.

I'm looking forward to seeing Smith and some of the others play this season.No one can say with any certainty what is going to happen with the Wings or any other team out there. Suter or Parise could suffer a season-ending injury in the pre-season (a la Mursak). Smith and some of the other young ones could exceed expectations, and their exuberance could be infectious with the veterans. Could the converse scenario also be true? Of course. Let them play and see what happens.

Kind of ridiculous to doom a team before even a second of hockey is played.

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No doubt we all have very high expectations for our team and thoise very expecations come from our incredible success over the last 20 years.....i love those expectations and all the rabid fans it brings about, both for and against kennys moves.

Can you imagine if the Wings were more like our Lions?

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No doubt we all have very high expectations for our team and thoise very expecations come from our incredible success over the last 20 years.....i love those expectations and all the rabid fans it brings about, both for and against kennys moves.

Can you imagine if the Wings were more like our Lions?

Although things have been looking up there... you bite your tongue! :)

I want to go on record as not liking Quincey's face too....

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Guest RedWingsDad

I want to go on record as not liking Quincey's face too....

It's true! I Was telling my wife the other day... there is something about his face that I don't like and it makes me not want to like him as a player for some reason. lol

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Guest RedWingsDad

Wait a minute - is he wearing a jock strap on the outside of his pants? Or is that how they always look before they throw on their hockey pants? lol

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I've done the same - more comfortable that way.

I miss the old light blue one-zee's from years ago.

I got the under amour "shorts" with the sock Velcro and built in jock and I wonder how I ever did without them... So much lighter and more comfortable and you don't feel it at all during your strides...

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I guess idont understand the risk in signing semin or maybe its just the fact I'm mad we lost first round of the playoffs to the preds (wtf). Or maybe two of the teams members that were on the team that got rid of our dead wings nickname are retiring, if holmstrom does retire that is. Or maybe its the fact that if this semin guy doesn't work out y couldn't we trade him? Or evn sign him and use him to trade to get someone better or.... idk just lost my train o thought any aditions to this or arguments I believe holland will do something. I'm sure illitch doesn't like losing.

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Also I think everyone is just well destroyed from losing lindstrom I don't think there really mad at holland. Its kind of like when ur a kid and u think ur parents will live for ever. But they don't, and we all had lindstrom as the guy forever in the wings jerzy. we all new it was gunna happen but never wanted to face the reality of not having him

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i agree with shanahan man. i don't know how some of you people are drinking the kool aid that holland is serving up, but my god if you can't see that this team is much weaker than last years team that got spanked by the preds and called out by their own coach, then you must have been watching something else. holland has been selling this same old crap for 4 early playoff exits. in my opinon he needs to go, and i have been saying this for years. i live and die with the wings, i was living and dying with them back in the years of the dead wings and the rebirth in 86-87. those were great times. now we have some lazy, overpaid players that holland signed and refuses to get rid of, like frazen. i would have taken hossa anyday over this lazy disappearing act. just my 2 cents

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Guest Heaten

I'm really surprised that so many are still defending Holland here. If it were just the lack of moves this offseason at play, then I'd understand. It would be dumb to throw too much money at low-quality talent because we didn't pull off the main plan. But as I've said in the past and many others are seeing now, this is a problem that's been brewing for four years now.

He should've made the moves to have pieces in place to build on when Lidstrom left 2-3, maybe even 4 years ago, but he didn't want to move anybody. He should've been actively shopping for a big time young defensemen after we won our last Cup, and yes, he should've given up legitimate, Red Wing-developed talent to do so, hard as it may.

If you ask me, Holland's chief and most critical objective for the last five year has been coming up for a replacement for Lidstrom. They knew it was coming, and they knew the loss would be huge; there could be no bigger hole than the hole left by Lidstrom in this era. The way it's looking now, it is highly likely that the 2012/13 season will start and Holland will have failed to come even remotely close to addressing the hole left by Lidstrom.

But again, to be perfectly clear, Holland didn't fail this summer. He failed for the last 4 years. He keeps coming up with nothing in the off-season and he even admitted in 2009 that he was shocked and unprepared for what happened when all our free-agents walked and we had no real Plan B.

Hell, people are pissed we didn't get Parise this year at a cap hit that would've sat around $7.5 million, but we let Hossa walk who could've been had for a $5 million cap hit because we didn't want to part with guys we developed, despite the fact that they've been inconsistent or wholly unproven performers.

But to be fair, I'm no saying Holland's a bad GM or wouldn't be capable of building a winner again, but I am increasingly of the opinion that he has run his course as the Wings GM. I think he's become too soft and cautious, and I'd venture to say at times out of touch with reality (again, see summer 2009). I think it's easy to gravitate to extremes on this issue and say Holland is a mastermind because of what he accomplished in the past just as easy as it is to say he rode on the coattails of Scotty Bowman's influence. Maybe the true answer is somewhere in between. Maybe he's just too close to this organization and the people in it to make objective opinions. And maybe he's not.

But in any event, in the last 4 years, any way you shake it, he's given no reason to believe that he's still got even a hint of that magic touch still, and even if you want to focus on the positives in his history and his overall capability as a GM, you still have a long way to go in defending the last 4 years of mediocre GMing. After all, even he admitted he blew it in '09, and Babcock all but slammed him about his lack of moves last summer to address problems he saw in the team.

Well considering DRWs were up against the cap and would need to shed salary, no quality FA available, they would need to trade. Who did you want thme to trade? Kronwall? Datsyuk? Or a package of Datsyuk AND Helm + picks?

It's one thing to say "Holland knew this for four years", it's another thing keeping this team in contention under the cap world with little to no assets to trade.

Again, people should have realistic expectations.... after all, this is a salary cap world and even the Detroit Red Wings need to follow the rules.

Your post proves to be unrealistic and unreasonable for the time. THERE WAS NO MONEY AND NO TRADE ASSETS

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