28 replies to this topic

[MrBest7]

Red Wings Rebuilding and Adapting to Maintain Dominance

The Detroit Red Wings have been in a rebuilding phase since Brian Rafalski hurt his knee and retired. But with Brad Stuart and Nick Lidstrom gone, this sends the Red Wing organization into a much deeper rebuilding process. We are the victim of our own success. The Wings were so dominate for so long that fans around the country figured who ever won the Detroit/Colorado series would become the Cup Champion. The Eastern Conference could only hope the two teams would beat each other up to have a chance. But not even the mighty Avalanche could keep up with the Red Wings. As a result the NHL introduced a policy of parity among teams. That’s why I laugh at all the knuckleheads on this forum who attack Kenny Holland and the Red Wing management. These are the same people who forced the NHL to change the rules toward parity.

The Wings not only dominated the ice with leadership and skill, but their marketing dominated even the NHL front office through its Hockeytown campaign. They redefined the game with the left wing lock and a specialized system which was unique to the league. The Wings dominated with an active owner willing to commit the resources for developing talent and building morale. The Wings dominated in attendance and fan base around the league. But the biggest domination has been in the draft and evaluating talent. It really would have been scary if 11^th round pick Vladimir Konstantinov played a full career alongside Nick Lidstrom.

Kris Draper for a dollar from Winnipeg!
Kirk Maltby a trade with Edmonton in '95 for defenseman Dan McGillis! WHO IS DAN McGILLIS!!!!
Vladimir Konstantinov 1989: 11th round, (221st overall)
Sergei Fedorov 1989 - 4th round (74th overall)
Keith Primeau to Hartford for Brendan Shanahan!
Nick Lidstrom 1989 - 3rd round (53rd overall)
Slava Kozlov 1990 - 2nd round (45th overall)
Bob Probert 1983 - 3rd (46th overall)
Joe Kocur 1983 - 5th Round, (88th overall)
Johan Franzen 2004 - 3rd round (97th overall)
Darren Helm 2005 - 5th round (132nd overall)
Pavel Datsyuk1998 - 6th round (171st overall)
Valtteri Filppula 2002 - 3rd round (95th overall)
Tomas Holmstrom 1994 - 10th round (257th overall)
Henrik Zetterberg 1999 - 7th round (210th overall)
Jonathan Ericsson 2002 - 9th Round, (291st overall)
Chris Osgood 1991 - 3rd round (54th overall)
Jimmy Howard 2003 - 2nd Rnd, (64th overall)

This proves the Wings didn’t just throw money at players! They built a dominating franchise in all phases in the sport!

THE FUTURE IS BRIGHT

As Red Wing fans we need to accept this transition of rebuilding and not demand trades for overpriced forwards like Rick Nash ($7.8 annually). Don’t trade the youth… develop the youth! The NHL has changed the rules, now we need to adapt and dominate like we have in the past.

The following list of Red Wing youth all have a tremendous chance to contribute to the organization.



Brendan Smith D

Damien Brunner LW

Riley Sheahan C http:// www.youtube.com/watch?v=PET_AGhPCg0

Petr Mrazek G http:// www.youtube.com/watch?v=9TVpMrFNzOYTomas Jurco RW http: //www.youtube.com/watch?v=biPsk6n2q5g

Teemu Pulkkinen RW http: //www.youtube.com/watch?v=vzfGZwoiGjU

Gustav Nyquist LW http: //www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGuCbnHiy3o

Tomas Tartar LW http: //www.youtube.com/watch?v=OivN-x05v24

Calle Jarnkrok C http: //youtu.be/pJrqdY4HDDg

Ryan Sproul D http: //www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fil5eZGVyb0

Xavier Ouellet D http: //youtu.be/aMgjqcQzbp0

Landon Ferraro C http: //www.youtube.com/watch?v=20sz6_Aj4xc

Martin Frk http: //www.youtube.com/watch?v=IEQbMQLgZO0

Edited by MrBest7, 15 July 2012 - 02:05 AM.

[FifeHockeyNut]

Good post. It's not all doom and gloom, We have good prospects with a bit of luck all (or at least some) will be great prospects. Kenny, jimmy D, Mr Illitch have worked very hard for the last 20 years to make this team compete, that doesn't change over night.

[wingslionstigers]

How do you figure we been in a rebuilding stage sense Rafalski retired? I don't agree with that but I do agree with your post, we cannot be dominate every single season. We have a great franchise but wiith a salary cap it's inpossible to put a team together that says Stanley Cup each and every season. There is going to be a few couple year windows every few seasons where we are just going to have a good enough team to make the playoffs and cross our fingures and hope we win a round or two. Although I don't think for a minute any of the management had rebuild in mind.

I really liked the Sammy aquisition if we landed Sutar and had a better shot at a compeitive season. Now I think these depth signgings are only going to hurt the oppertunity for our young guys to come up and get a chance at a bigger role. We got alot of forwards and I think it's time to let Miller, Eaves, and maybe someone else go and see if we can play our young guys more.

We got some promising prospects and our bottom 6 is really looking like it's going to be good in another year or two. The only thing I don't like is that Dat's, Franzen, and Z will certinaly be on the decline in he next couple seasons when we our ready for the next big run. I think Smith is going to turn into a really great defensemen but I am sure Holland has his eyes set on a big name defensemen next off season. I mean really though guys, our forwards are night and day better than last season. We are lacking Lidstrom, Smith could certinatly be as good or better than Stuart come playoff time. This team will make the playoffs and it will have a chance to win a round or two in the playoffs. If you don't think so your just a whiney little girl that just got way to high on the idea od Parise and Sutar.

[wingslionstigers]

I just don't understand why any of you guys want to trade for a forward right now.. We are loaded with forwards and have a ton of forward prospect depth. Our forward unit looks better than it has in years. The only trade that would even be worth looking into is for a defensemen, and trust me they have looked plenty you just don't here about it. Even a trade for a D just might not be worth it and only make our team worse. You guys need to get real and quit assuming we can trade a couple unproven players for a super star. We tried for a FA in Sutar, It didn't work so we will try next year. It may not work next year, but were not going to destroy our team to make a trade that all you guys bitching will end up bitching even more about.

[Dabura]

I just don't understand why any of you guys want to trade for a forward right now..

See: our embarrassing five-game first-round defeat at the hands of Little Brother.

[wingslionstigers]

So let me guess.. We can trade Eaves for Rick Nash, Miller for Ryan and we will be sick hey??? Yeah that will work out good.

To bad for either Nash or Ryan we will lose more than return.. How many goals would u expect Nash to score per playoff game? Whatever number you figure that will make us win?

You want to give up Filpulla, Helm and a top prospect? Nash will make up for all that? Make us a much better team?

[Dabura]

Our top-6 was boxed out to the perimeter in the o-zone. Our secondary scoring dried up. Our bottom-6 was a joke. We need a shot in the arm, some new looks our top-6 can throw the opposition. We need a guy who's not going to get boxed out to the perimeter and be content to take bottom-basement-percentage shots from the tops of the circles against a physically huge, world-class goalie like Rinne (though I do think he's not a little overrated). We need to get a little bigger, a little stronger, a little faster, a little nastier.

Obviously we need more goals, but I'm not sure adding a sniper like Semin is really the answer. He'd be more than content to take shots from outside the box; he wouldn't really give us a new dimension. We'd still be forced to play the Predators' game. A guy like Bobby Ryan or Rick Nash (pipe dream) or Corey Perry (pipe dream) or Milan Lucic (pipe dream) will do what no one in our top-6 does (at least, not consistently): break through the box, drive to the net, crash and bang in the corners - cause problems. Oh yeah - and score. And in doing so, he'd free up things a bit, give our skilled guys more time and space. That, in turn, would give us a chance to take over with our style of game. At the very least, it'd disrupt the opposition's system.

So let me guess.. We can trade Eaves for Rick Nash, Miller for Ryan and we will be sick hey??? Yeah that will work out good.

To bad for either Nash or Ryan we will lose more than return.. How many goals would u expect Nash to score per playoff game? Whatever number you figure that will make us win?

You want to give up Filpulla, Helm and a top prospect? Nash will make up for all that? Make us a much better team?

Calm your ass down, buddy. I'll answer all your burning questions.

Edited by Dabura, 16 July 2012 - 01:41 PM.

[dobbles]

people continue to over react.... the wings arent rebuilding. the roster is simply changing. lidstrom wasnt going to be around forever. he is the only player that cant be replaced. white was servicable in rafalskis place. quincey is slated to replace stuart. will they be exactly the same? of course not. (also note, i too thought quincey was terrible after the deadline, but i think he will be better going forward)

every year, fans are clamoring for the wings to get younger and try out new players. well some of that is finally happening. thats not rebuilding. thast reloading. its not about parity or finding gems in the draft or anything else. the wings lost earlier than expected in the playoffs; s*** happens. this year they ran into a hot goalie. its the same thing that happened when they hit kiprusoff in 04 and giguere in 03.

people think because we lost in the first round that suddenly the wings run of success is over.... let me remind you of something:
after winning back to back cups in 97 and 98, the wings won only 2 playoff series the next 3 years.
after winning the cup in 02, the wings won only 1 playoff series the next 3 years.
after winning the cup in 08, the wings won only 2 playoff series the next 3 years.

[Dabura]

Ryan or Nash (for the record, I'd much prefer Ryan) would probably cost something like Filppula/Franzen + Nyquist + a good prospect + a 1st-round pick. We'd be losing a lot, yes, but you have to give a lot to gain a lot - and we would be gaining a lot.

Like I said, our top-6 needs to be more dynamic, more dangerous. As things currently stand, we are far from deadly - because we can be completely shut down. Any scoring unit that can be snuffed out like ours was against the Preds is not going to win the Stanley Cup - and the goal is the Cup, anything short of it being a disappointing failure for this great organization. Franzen scored all of one goal, and it was a total fluke. He was uninspired, undisciplined. Filppula scored zero goals and was barely noticeable, let alone dangerous. I don't care about his regular-season stats, they mean jack - especially if he doesn't produce in the playoffs.

Are Nash and Ryan proven playoff performers? No. Do I think Flip is a playoff bust? No. Do I think we desperately need a power-forward? Yes. Do I think adding one (or two, if you count Doan) power-forwards would make us more formidable, even though we'd be giving up Flip or Franzen? Yes.

Players like Filppula are rare. Players like Bobby Ryan are just as rare, if not more so. We can only acquire a player like Ryan via free agency or a trade. Flip, we may have one or two younger hims waiting in the wings (no pun intended), and I don't think he's so special that we'll never be able to draft another player like him. Moreover, we have Datsyuk and Zetterberg, who are - while, yes, older - basically better versions of him.

It is, I think, a low-risk, high-reward trade (assuming it's more or less like the package I put forward at the beginning of this post).

Edited by Dabura, 15 July 2012 - 10:35 AM.

[beachwing]

"been scary if 11th round pick Vladimir Konstantinov played a full career alongside Nick Lids"

--------------

This!!!!!!!!!

[evilmrt]

Kris Draper for a dollar from Winnipeg!
Kirk Maltby a trade with Edmonton in '95 for defenseman Dan McGillis! WHO IS DAN McGILLIS!!!!
Vladimir Konstantinov 1989: 11th round, (221st overall)
Sergei Fedorov 1989 - 4th round (74th overall)
Keith Primeau to Hartford for Brendan Shanahan!
Nick Lidstrom 1989 - 3rd round (53rd overall)
Slava Kozlov 1990 - 2nd round (45th overall)
Bob Probert 1983 - 3rd (46th overall)
Joe Kocur 1983 - 5th Round, (88th overall)
Johan Franzen 2004 - 3rd round (97th overall)
Darren Helm 2005 - 5th round (132nd overall)
Pavel Datsyuk 1998 - 6th round (171st overall)
Valtteri Filppula 2002 - 3rd round (95th overall)
Tomas Holmstrom 1994 - 10th round (257th overall)
Henrik Zetterberg 1999 - 7th round (210th overall)
Jonathan Ericsson 2002 - 9th Round, (291st overall)
Chris Osgood 1991 - 3rd round (54th overall)
Jimmy Howard 2003 - 2nd Rnd, (64th overall)

Great list! Except that the newest pick on there was SEVEN YEARS AGO

[MrBest7]

Great list! Except that the newest pick on there was SEVEN YEARS AGO

Yes! You make my point! Let's bring these kids up and lets see what they are made of. Let the cream rise to the top.
We live in a different time ladies and gentlemen. We can't build a dynasty through free agency. The salary cap will eventually burn you.
BUILD FROM WITHIN!!!!!

[esteef]

Yes! You make my point! Let's bring these kids up and lets see what they are made of. Let the cream rise to the top.
We live in a different time ladies and gentlemen. We can't build a dynasty through free agency. The salary cap will eventually burn you.
BUILD FROM WITHIN!!!!!

But we can plug necessary holes through free agency. WRITE THE CHECK!!!!!!

esteef

[Buppy]

Ryan or Nash (for the record, I'd much prefer Ryan) would probably cost something like Filppula/Franzen + Nyquist + a good prospect + a 1st-round pick. We'd be losing a lot, yes, but you have to give a lot to gain a lot - and we would be gaining a lot.

Like I said, our top-6 needs to be more dynamic, more dangerous. As things currently stand, we are far from deadly - because we can be completely shut down. Any scoring unit that can be snuffed out like ours was against the Preds is not going to win the Stanley Cup - and the goal is the Cup, anything short of it being a disappointing failure for this great organization. Franzen scored all of one goal, and it was a total fluke. He was uninspired, undisciplined. Filppula scored zero goals and was barely noticeable, let alone dangerous. I don't care about his regular-season stats, they mean jack - especially if he doesn't produce in the playoffs.

Are Nash and Ryan proven playoff performers? No. Do I think Flip is a playoff bust? No. Do I think we desperately need a power-forward? Yes. Do I think adding one (or two, if you count Doan) power-forwards would make us more formidable, even though we'd be giving up Flip or Franzen? Yes.

Players like Filppula are rare. Players like Bobby Ryan are just as rare, if not more so. We can only acquire a player like Ryan via free agency or a trade. Flip, we may have one or two younger hims waiting in the wings (no pun intended), and I don't think he's so special that we'll never be able to draft another player like him. Moreover, we have Datsyuk and Zetterberg, who are - while, yes, older - basically better versions of him.

It is, I think, a low-risk, high-reward trade (assuming it's more or less like the package I put forward at the beginning of this post).

Any scoring unit can be shut down. Philly was shut down by NJ. SJ, Boston, Vancouver, Chicago all had trouble scoring in the playoffs. You can't judge ability based on a 5 game stretch. Sometimes, things just don't go well. A very similar offense scored over 3 goals per game in '10-11. No trade(s) are going to help if the players don't play well. If the players play well, we can score with the best of them even with the players we have now.

Not to say the proposed trade is a bad one, and normally I'd be ok with it. But with such a need on defense, giving up all those assets for what would likely be only a small improvement (and possibly even a downgrade if Flip improves further and Nyquist breaks out, plus leaving us without a backup option for a top-6 center if Pav or Hank get hurt) at forward doesn't make much sense. Franzen instead of Flip is less of a risk, but also less of an improvement (and the Ducks supposedly want a top-6 center anyway).

If we're going to make a major trade, it should be for a defenseman.

[pucktividi]

Yes! You make my point! Let's bring these kids up and lets see what they are made of. Let the cream rise to the top.
We live in a different time ladies and gentlemen. We can't build a dynasty through free agency. The salary cap will eventually burn you.
BUILD FROM WITHIN!!!!!

...except Nyquist,Tatar and Brunner will split the time between GR and the Wings and Smith and Kindl are going to play for the reason we don't have anyone else to dress.

[Xraymind7781]

I don't think the wings have been dominant for some time now. With that said I think they are looking to regain dominance. I do like a few of our prospects but I don't think we can hang our hat on upcoming talent if we are going to be contenders any time soon. I think there will be a few lean years before the wings are in a position to compete deep into the playoffs again. I don't think any club could prepare itself for losing possibly the greatest defensive fixture in the history of the game. I really dont think its going to be so easy to draw free agents here anymore. Thats just my opinion. I hope i'm wrong. But i think things are going to be very different from what we've all been accustomed to for this hockey club. Thats not me being doom and gloom. Just looking at things realistically. As someone pointed out, its been awhile since a significant draftee has had a major impact in our lineup. Hopefully theres a couple in the system now that have a strong break through season. It couldnt come at a better time. Should be intersting to see how it unfolds.

[Johnz96]

So let me guess.. We can trade Eaves for Rick Nash, Miller for Ryan and we will be sick hey??? Yeah that will work out good.

To bad for either Nash or Ryan we will lose more than return.. How many goals would u expect Nash to score per playoff game? Whatever number you figure that will make us win?

You want to give up Filpulla, Helm and a top prospect? Nash will make up for all that? Make us a much better team?

Even if we could get Nash for Eaves and Ryan for Miller we would be over the cap and have to dump someone and wouldn't be able to re-sign Fil or Howard next year.
Kenny Holland is holding out for the right deal at the right price and he will eventually get it, which he wouldn't be able to do without the cap reserve

Any scoring unit can be shut down. Philly was shut down by NJ. SJ, Boston, Vancouver, Chicago all had trouble scoring in the playoffs. You can't judge ability based on a 5 game stretch. Sometimes, things just don't go well. A very similar offense scored over 3 goals per game in '10-11. No trade(s) are going to help if the players don't play well. If the players play well, we can score with the best of them even with the players we have now.

Not to say the proposed trade is a bad one, and normally I'd be ok with it. But with such a need on defense, giving up all those assets for what would likely be only a small improvement (and possibly even a downgrade if Flip improves further and Nyquist breaks out, plus leaving us without a backup option for a top-6 center if Pav or Hank get hurt) at forward doesn't make much sense. Franzen instead of Flip is less of a risk, but also less of an improvement (and the Ducks supposedly want a top-6 center anyway).

If we're going to make a major trade, it should be for a defenseman.

Philly was shut down by NJ after setting a playoff record for scoring in the previous series (an incredible feat considering the over sized goalie equipment, some credit for that should be given to Sid of course)

...except Nyquist,Tatar and Brunner will split the time between GR and the Wings and Smith and Kindl are going to play for the reason we don't have anyone else to dress.

You don't know that, I think Nyquist will be with the Wings all season long

Edited by Johnz96, 15 July 2012 - 03:25 PM.

[Heaten]

Great list! Except that the newest pick on there was SEVEN YEARS AGO

That is correct, and there is a good reason for that. The reason is because Holland traded lots of picks during the pre-cap era that affected us through 2007/08. In an old interview (after the last CBA), Holland stated that drafting and developing is more important than ever now. I remember one quote where he said "draft picks are gold". Since the he only traded one pick that I could remember, and he only traded it because his hand was forced by Stuart wanting to go back to Cali, and the inevitable Lidstrom retiring.

Look up the NHL draft from 2001 - 2007. Red Wings didn't have many picks, they gave most of them away for players like Schneider / Wooley and whoever else...

Now look at the 2009 - 2012 prospects we drafted. Our prospects are top 10 on hockeyfuture and top 3 on hockeyprospectus

I would say that is pretty damn good with all things considered.

EDIT:

When Nyquist and Smith show what they can do this year, you'll see how damn amazing the future is =)

Edited by Heaten, 15 July 2012 - 03:57 PM.

[CrimsonFlame]

I just don't understand why any of you guys want to trade for a forward right now.. We are loaded with forwards and have a ton of forward prospect depth. Our forward unit looks better than it has in years. The only trade that would even be worth looking into is for a defensemen, and trust me they have looked plenty you just don't here about it. Even a trade for a D just might not be worth it and only make our team worse. You guys need to get real and quit assuming we can trade a couple unproven players for a super star. We tried for a FA in Sutar, It didn't work so we will try next year. It may not work next year, but were not going to destroy our team to make a trade that all you guys bitching will end up bitching even more about.

Why do we want to trade for a foreward? Because none of ours did anything when it really mattered. I may only be speaking for myself, but I want to see some change. We've paraded out the same team for four years. We came close in 09. Didn't work in 10 11 or 12. It's time to try something knew. I'm not saying we need to go into rebuilding mode and blow the whole team up. But I do want to see something new. You can only send out the same team so many times before it's obsolete.

Well that and the fact that our offense was atrocious for the entire second half of last year.

[pucktividi]

You don't know that, I think Nyquist will be with the Wings all season long

Of course I don't,but we have 15 forwards signed,16 with Abdelkader,with Brunner and Nyquist on 2-way contracts.

Ken said he won't pull a trade if it's isn't a perfect fit or makes perfect sense,therefore he'll waive Mursak and Emmerton which I doubt or likely send Nyquist and Brunner to the Griffins