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stevkrause

Red Wings make "helluva" offer for Nash, no response

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You crazy.

Care to back it up with stats and solid analysis or pointless trolling comments?

Since you can't, here we go.

Nyquist, Flip, and a first rounder are too good to give up for Nash because of the potential. Flip has a great season. Nyquist is just now coming into his own and he was a leader in scoring in the minors. He will get 2nd line minutes probably this season, if not 3rd. Plus a first rounder in 2013, which has a great draft class coming up. I have to agree, its too steep of a price to pay for a winger.

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Care to back it up with stats and solid analysis or pointless trolling comments?

Since you can't, here we go.

Nyquist, Flip, and a first rounder are too good to give up for Nash because of the potential. Flip has a great season. Nyquist is just now coming into his own and he was a leader in scoring in the minors. He will get 2nd line minutes probably this season, if not 3rd. Plus a first rounder in 2013, which has a great draft class coming up. I have to agree, its too steep of a price to pay for a winger.

Exactly. And i'm not one of the guys buying into Howson's garbage that Nash is worth selling the farm for...really, 2 roster players, 2 prospects and a 1st rounder....REALLY HOWSON???

Just cause Howson thinks he's worth that much, doesn't make it so.

He's not even worth Flip, Gus and a 1st. IF, and that's a big IF Flip is in the package, then it's him + Tatar (max) and a 2nd, not a 1st. People need to stop discounting the guys we have that are good just cause someone's dangling a piece of candy in front of your face and you're salivating cause we lost so much this summer and no matter what Kenny does, you won't think we gained jack cause Lids retired.

So it was Flip+Nyquist+1st after all.That really sounds like a "helluva" offer :)

If that actually was the offer and as far as we've seen there's no reliable source, then Howson is in fact the biggest idiot in the NHL. No wonder the jackets suck every year. While Kenny's at it, why not offer all our picks for their 1st?

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Care to back it up with stats and solid analysis or pointless trolling comments?

Since you can't, here we go.

Nyquist, Flip, and a first rounder are too good to give up for Nash because of the potential. Flip has a great season. Nyquist is just now coming into his own and he was a leader in scoring in the minors. He will get 2nd line minutes probably this season, if not 3rd. Plus a first rounder in 2013, which has a great draft class coming up. I have to agree, its too steep of a price to pay for a winger.

That's neither statistics nor analysis, it's simply your opinion. For what it's worth, I'd rather have Ryan but whatevs.

esteef

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If that actually was the offer and as far as we've seen there's no reliable source, then Howson is in fact the biggest idiot in the NHL. No wonder the jackets suck every year. While Kenny's at it, why not offer all our picks for their 1st?

Actually think the offer is really good both ways.We get top 6 power forward,Howson gets what he wants,2 forwards ready to play and a pick.

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Actually think the offer is really good both ways.We get top 6 power forward,Howson gets what he wants,2 forwards ready to play and a pick.

Except we replace 2 60 point players and a first round pick for one 60 point player.

And we still have a need for defense.

Rick Nash has never lived up to his 7.8 million contract.

Don't give me Columbus.

Kristian Huselius (LW) - 63 points in 74 games (43 assists)

Antoine Vermette © - 65 points in 82 games (38 assists, 54.2% FO%)

Nash (RW) had 67 points in 76 games. Huselius had one more power play point than the great Nash, and Vermette had 10 mroe even strength points than him.

Nash should make others better, and he has yet to do that. We need a defenseman much more than we need an overrated 30 goal scorer that would cost us more than we would end up with.

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why does kenny like mule so much when he floats most games? fil bust his ass every game. nyquist could have more potential than nash. he could be the next datsyuk. hope that wasnt the truth

Maybe his contract is tough to trade away?

As for the offer, first off Columbus won't trade with the Wings, and second, I'd bet Columbus would want a power forward in return. If I was Columbus, I'd rather have Nash. Nothing against Filp and Nyquist, but those two won't sell tickets, Nash or another power forward would... Also, if Filp and Nyquist got traded to Columbus, I'd feel bad for them.

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Except we replace 2 60 point players and a first round pick for one 60 point player.

Yeah,except we have replacements for both Filppula and Nyquist in Jarnkrok,Tatar,Jurco...not sure about prospect with Nash's potential

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Except we replace 2 60 point players and a first round pick for one 60 point player.

And we still have a need for defense.

Rick Nash has never lived up to his 7.8 million contract.

Don't give me Columbus.

Kristian Huselius (LW) - 63 points in 74 games (43 assists)

Antoine Vermette © - 65 points in 82 games (38 assists, 54.2% FO%)

Nash (RW) had 67 points in 76 games. Huselius had one more power play point than the great Nash, and Vermette had 10 mroe even strength points than him.

Nash should make others better, and he has yet to do that. We need a defenseman much more than we need an overrated 30 goal scorer that would cost us more than we would end up with.

You really have to watch Nash play more often. With Datsyuk as his center, he would score between 50 & 60 goals, no doubt about it. Hell, even Stamkos would have trouble scoring goals in Columbus.

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You really have to watch Nash play more often. With Datsyuk as his center, he would score between 50 & 60 goals, no doubt about it. Hell, even Stamkos would have trouble scoring goals in Columbus.

Sorry, I like Nash, but he is not worth his contract. We need to use our assets for defense, I just fail to see how the Wings improve. We lose scoring depth, we lose assets, and we get a player that's never proved to score more than 80 points.

Edited by Carman

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Yeah,except we have replacements for both Filppula and Nyquist in Jarnkrok,Tatar,Jurco...not sure about prospect with Nash's potential

Nyquist is much better than Tatar, hence he's had more NHL games and outscored Tatar in less games in GR. Jarnkrok is gonna be really good, but needs to add weight and isn't quite as good as Gus. Jurco did jack in the memorial cup and has been trapped behind Huberdeau and Coyle on the Sea Dogs. As much as i like the other 3 guys, they don't have the potential that Nyquist has. Trading him is a very stupid idea.

Another thing no one mentions is that CBJ has a crap system and they miss the playoffs annually cause of it. Nash comes to Detroit and has to play defence too and his point production probably won't get much better cause as you can see in Columbus, he doesn't waste much energy playing D.

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Ryan for Filppula, and Franzen - I'd accept that in a heartbeat.

Really? That's hard to swallow because Fil is a good centre and we don't have another young centre to replace him right away. If Dats or Z were 3 years younger I could live with it.

Don't underestimate how important it is to have good centres.

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Surprising, really. With the defenseman UFA market so weak now, I thought for sure Holland would put everything he had into a trade for a defenseman and a UFA forward signing instead of the other way around. If we throw everything and the kitchen sink at a forward, we'll have nothing left to trade for a top defender.

If you're going to be giving up a lot more goals, you better damn well start scoring more as well.

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Sorry, I like Nash, but he is not worth his contract. We need to use our assets for defense, I just fail to see how the Wings improve. We lose scoring depth, we lose assets, and we get a player that's never proved to score more than 80 points.

We would of lost a guy who has never scored more than 66 points himself and who disappeared in the playoffs last year, and a player that at times has shown promise, but more often than not has just looked so-so. We improve by having an unstoppable 1st line, even if teams focus on them. The 2nd line?? Not so sure about them. I agree about the defense, but...

And scoring a point for Columbus is like scoring two points for a good team. I'm not saying he would score 160 points in Detroit, but he would sure as hell put up more than 80. And Nash doesn't float, which would only make Datsyuk's job easier.

But it's not going to happen, so it's a moot point.

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I lol at Howson. I'm so happy he isn't taking the Wings' offers if these rumours are true.

I want nothing to do with overpaying for a habitual underachiever who is being paid top 10 money for the next 6 years to produce at the same freaking level as Franzen. Fuuuuccckkk that. I'd take Nash if the asking price wasn't so so inflated. Keep waiting the Jackets out.... there's a reason why the entire league is declining their absurd price.

We would of lost a guy who has never scored more than 66 points himself and who disappeared in the playoffs last year, and a player that at times has shown promise, but more often than not has just looked so-so. We improve by having an unstoppable 1st line, even if teams focus on them. The 2nd line?? Not so sure about them. I agree about the defense, but...

And scoring a point for Columbus is like scoring two points for a good team. I'm not saying he would score 160 points in Detroit, but he would sure as hell put up more than 80. And Nash doesn't float, which would only make Datsyuk's job easier.

But it's not going to happen, so it's a moot point.

lol wut? I love when people ignore the fact that Nash gets paid almost twice what Franzen does to produce at the same level.

I could give two s***s if people speculate what he'd produce like here. All you can do is evaluate him based on what's he's actually done lately.

Place Hank at the #2 slot, and #3 goes to Helm.

We lack scoring wingers; Franzen isn't what many have expected, and I'm thinking the chances are likely that Filppula will go back to being a 40 something pts guy, and not the 60 plus pts guy he was this past season.

Getting a talent like Ryan comes along only so often.

Hey if Filppula came back to Earth I'd feel real silly, no question. But what if Filppula's year wasn't a fluke? That's the problem.

And the other thing is we're getting old and definitely past the prime window for winning a Cup. If the deal was to trade for Ryan 3 years ago you'd have to take it... but with Dats and Z both exiting their primes...

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I really don't see moving Franzen or Flip out for Nash, Ryan, or anybody else, until someone else is brought in. In my opinion the problem with our forward core is not that it's not skilled enough, but that it's not deep enough. Switching Nash for Flip or Franzen improves the skill level on that one wing, but doesn't improve our depth at all. We still wouldn't have 6 legitimate top six forwards...unless either Nyquist, Sammy, or Brunner produces WAY above what's expected of them.

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http://www.mlive.com...itch_for_r.html

Can we please put this to bed now? Also, those myopic posts about Holland not doing his job... Yea, you can't dance if you don't have a partner, no matter how much you try...

Holland made offers to the two big free agents and the biggest guy on the trade market, now that he's really up against the wall with no other choices, so he gets a pass? Oh, and he didn't get any deals done, but to me, that's never been the issue. Nash was always a huge longshot and if people really get upset about that, then it's just unfortunate.

But again, where was this thinking the last 4 years? You seem to deem it okay that Holland went after Nash as you're using it to defend him. Okay, well, we can only assume that his offer included Franzen and Flip, and we couldn't pass on or trade just one of those guys in 2009 to make keeping Hossa, a better all-around player than Nash, for far less money?

I said it then and I'll say it again now: when you have the chance to bring in genuine superstar talent, you do what it takes to make it happen.

Holland didn't do that, and now he's left having to beg to give up more to get back less from people who don't even care to listen.

And the last 4 years, the same types of stories keep repeating. You would think that losing Rafalski would have lit a fire under him to start looking for a Lidstrom replacement via any means necessary, but again, based on what he's said, not I, he wasn't interested in trading away so and so and such and such to make any sort of big move. But now that we're up against the wall, it's okay? Again, it would've been nice if he had approached these things in a realistic, business-like manner the last 4 years instead of waiting until we were left with a defense that didn't include Lidstrom, Rafalski, and Stuart and an offense that struggles to score goals when it counts.

But even when we had the defense, we couldn't get past the 2nd round, and last years 1st round exit was just embarrassing. Some draw we are now…

Some call it parity, but I think Holland's struggled to make decisions that could rock the boat when it's been obvious for some time that the boat was going to get rocked no matter what when Lidstrom left. He's consistently settled on trying to keep all the pieces he already has instead of swapping some out to get bigger pieces or pieces that simply better complement some of our current pieces. One of his strengths is in finding low-end or cheap talent that can contribute like Bert, Eaves and Miller, but instead of chasing those guys because he has no cap space after signing game-changers like Hossa, he's forced to chase them when they're the only option left at all and then expect what's likely too much out of them. And again, at this point, all those guys he refused to part with are either gone or currently being shopped around in a futile desperation act.

So, I don't know, feel free to love him unconditionally, but despite past successes, I find little reason to defend his handling of this team the last 4 years. I'm not taking anything away from the past success, but this is 4 years in a row now of Holland coming up short in my book. I defended him as long as I could, hoping that perhaps in the last minute he'd pull a rabbit out of his hat and make it all okay like he's done before. That would've minimized my distaste with his management the last 3 years, but at this point, it's clear he never had a solid plan at any point in time to prepare for this off-season.

I'm not even mad at him about this off-season. He did what he could in a desperate moment and came up short for logical and easily understandable reasons. But the thing is, successful people tend to find a way to get "desperate" before life forces it on them, leaving them with a lot more control and subsequently far more options and time to consider them. Holland failed to get "desperate" until life forced it on him, and thus had very little control and few options. And any way you shake it, at this point, he's failed to address the biggest hole that's ever been left by a player leaving this team.

He hasn't even come close to replacing Stuart (Quincey still has a lot to prove this otherwise) let alone Rafalski.

But Lidstrom?

To allow it to come to the point where it still hasn't been addressed in any way, shape or form this summer or in the last 3 offseasons is simply unacceptable. Holland didn't get serious about this until he absolutely had to; he procrastinated, and he came up with nothing. And now he has less bargaining power than he ever had as well.

He may be one of the best GM's in sports when history is taken into account, but he's now well into year four of a stretch where he has been anything but one of the best GM's. It may not kill his reputation, and it shouldn't, but it doesn't negate the fact that he's failed to address too many issues since our last serious Cup run. Maybe the management version of a Stanley Cup hangover lasts four years and looks like a guy clinging to past success too much instead of evolving. That's the closest I can come to a logical explanation for three seasons and four offseasons of doing next to nothing to tweak a team with balance issues let alone prepare for the post-Lidstrom/Rafalski/Stuart era.

Edited by gcom007

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And the other thing is we're getting old and definitely past the prime window for winning a Cup. If the deal was to trade for Ryan 3 years ago you'd have to take it... but with Dats and Z both exiting their primes...

I wouldn't have bought this if we had a decent top defenseman to minimize the pain from Lidstrom leaving. I still think this team has a solid core in Datsyuk and Zetterberg for some time, but that's if Holland can get the right pieces around them. I think the key to success in the Cup-era more than ever is adaptability. Sometimes teams just need little tweaks here and there to shake things up and balance things out. I would've moved Flip years ago for more scoring power or in some package to bring in a Lidstrom replacement. Even if Flip isn't a fluke, by the time Datsyuk and Zetterberg are at a point where they're not still elite centers in this game, Flip's going to be well past a far less sunny prime anyways. Elite players still find ways to compete long into their careers, so Dats and Z won't fade fast if you ask me. Fluke or not, Flip will fade sooner as he just isn't even close to Dats or Z as a player in any way at all. And he'll be 29 this season after all; it's not like he's 24 coming off his first solid season.

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Honestly, if it were possible, I would not try to trade Flips. I would get rid of Franzen, yeah, but Flip is just getting hot in my mind. Yeah, he's 28. The last few years he has been a 30-40 point guy. He has added to his ice time and taken on more responsibility. Last year he grabbed 66 points. He's heating up and he could potentially be one of our higher point getters. A little rough around the edges, but he's getting there. Franzen is 32 and added 56 points, but I would just rather have the younger kid who could heat up to be 70-80 points on a good year. Just my two cents.

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Honestly, if it were possible, I would not try to trade Flips. I would get rid of Franzen, yeah, but Flip is just getting hot in my mind. Yeah, he's 28. The last few years he has been a 30-40 point guy. He has added to his ice time and taken on more responsibility. Last year he grabbed 66 points. He's heating up and he could potentially be one of our higher point getters. A little rough around the edges, but he's getting there. Franzen is 32 and added 56 points, but I would just rather have the younger kid who could heat up to be 70-80 points on a good year. Just my two cents.

Seeing the rumors leaked from the Rangers & Canes discussions with Howson & the players he was asking for, I still get the feeling that the 2 NHL proven forwards he would demand from Kenny in a trade for Nash would be Flip & Helm, not Franzen.

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Seeing the rumors leaked from the Rangers & Canes discussions with Howson & the players he was asking for, I still get the feeling that the 2 NHL proven forwards he would demand from Kenny in a trade for Nash would be Flip & Helm, not Franzen.

The offer was Filppula, Nyquist and 2013's first round pick. And they wouldn't even negotiate.

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