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Red Wings make "helluva" offer for Nash, no response

rick nash columbus blue jackets

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#101 F.Michael

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 09:05 PM

If you know the Ducks GM, then have him give Holland a call. I bet he would make that deal. I bet the Ducks are asking for more than that. Probably Flip, Franzen, and a first rounder, to which I say no to. I don't see the need to give up 100 points to get a 60 point guy.

Ryan for Filppula, and Franzen - I'd accept that in a heartbeat.

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#102 Drake_Marcus

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 09:07 PM

Ryan for Filppula, and Franzen - I'd accept that in a heartbeat.


Really? That's hard to swallow because Fil is a good centre and we don't have another young centre to replace him right away. If Dats or Z were 3 years younger I could live with it.

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#103 gcom007

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 09:09 PM

Surprising, really. With the defenseman UFA market so weak now, I thought for sure Holland would put everything he had into a trade for a defenseman and a UFA forward signing instead of the other way around. If we throw everything and the kitchen sink at a forward, we'll have nothing left to trade for a top defender.


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#104 Hairy Lime

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 09:11 PM

Sorry, I like Nash, but he is not worth his contract. We need to use our assets for defense, I just fail to see how the Wings improve. We lose scoring depth, we lose assets, and we get a player that's never proved to score more than 80 points.


We would of lost a guy who has never scored more than 66 points himself and who disappeared in the playoffs last year, and a player that at times has shown promise, but more often than not has just looked so-so. We improve by having an unstoppable 1st line, even if teams focus on them. The 2nd line?? Not so sure about them. I agree about the defense, but...

And scoring a point for Columbus is like scoring two points for a good team. I'm not saying he would score 160 points in Detroit, but he would sure as hell put up more than 80. And Nash doesn't float, which would only make Datsyuk's job easier.

But it's not going to happen, so it's a moot point.

#105 F.Michael

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 09:13 PM

Really? That's hard to swallow because Fil is a good centre and we don't have another young centre to replace him right away. If Dats or Z were 3 years younger I could live with it.

Don't underestimate how important it is to have good centres.

Place Hank at the #2 slot, and #3 goes to Helm.

We lack scoring wingers; Franzen isn't what many have expected, and I'm thinking the chances are likely that Filppula will go back to being a 40 something pts guy, and not the 60 plus pts guy he was this past season.

Getting a talent like Ryan comes along only so often.

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#106 Drake_Marcus

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 09:19 PM

I lol at Howson. I'm so happy he isn't taking the Wings' offers if these rumours are true.

I want nothing to do with overpaying for a habitual underachiever who is being paid top 10 money for the next 6 years to produce at the same freaking level as Franzen. Fuuuuccckkk that. I'd take Nash if the asking price wasn't so so inflated. Keep waiting the Jackets out.... there's a reason why the entire league is declining their absurd price.

We would of lost a guy who has never scored more than 66 points himself and who disappeared in the playoffs last year, and a player that at times has shown promise, but more often than not has just looked so-so. We improve by having an unstoppable 1st line, even if teams focus on them. The 2nd line?? Not so sure about them. I agree about the defense, but...

And scoring a point for Columbus is like scoring two points for a good team. I'm not saying he would score 160 points in Detroit, but he would sure as hell put up more than 80. And Nash doesn't float, which would only make Datsyuk's job easier.

But it's not going to happen, so it's a moot point.


lol wut? I love when people ignore the fact that Nash gets paid almost twice what Franzen does to produce at the same level.

I could give two s***s if people speculate what he'd produce like here. All you can do is evaluate him based on what's he's actually done lately.

Place Hank at the #2 slot, and #3 goes to Helm.

We lack scoring wingers; Franzen isn't what many have expected, and I'm thinking the chances are likely that Filppula will go back to being a 40 something pts guy, and not the 60 plus pts guy he was this past season.

Getting a talent like Ryan comes along only so often.


Hey if Filppula came back to Earth I'd feel real silly, no question. But what if Filppula's year wasn't a fluke? That's the problem.

And the other thing is we're getting old and definitely past the prime window for winning a Cup. If the deal was to trade for Ryan 3 years ago you'd have to take it... but with Dats and Z both exiting their primes...
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#107 kipwinger

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 10:04 PM

I really don't see moving Franzen or Flip out for Nash, Ryan, or anybody else, until someone else is brought in. In my opinion the problem with our forward core is not that it's not skilled enough, but that it's not deep enough. Switching Nash for Flip or Franzen improves the skill level on that one wing, but doesn't improve our depth at all. We still wouldn't have 6 legitimate top six forwards...unless either Nyquist, Sammy, or Brunner produces WAY above what's expected of them.

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#108 gcom007

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 10:59 PM

http://www.mlive.com...itch_for_r.html

Can we please put this to bed now? Also, those myopic posts about Holland not doing his job... Yea, you can't dance if you don't have a partner, no matter how much you try...


Holland made offers to the two big free agents and the biggest guy on the trade market, now that he's really up against the wall with no other choices, so he gets a pass? Oh, and he didn't get any deals done, but to me, that's never been the issue. Nash was always a huge longshot and if people really get upset about that, then it's just unfortunate.

But again, where was this thinking the last 4 years? You seem to deem it okay that Holland went after Nash as you're using it to defend him. Okay, well, we can only assume that his offer included Franzen and Flip, and we couldn't pass on or trade just one of those guys in 2009 to make keeping Hossa, a better all-around player than Nash, for far less money?

I said it then and I'll say it again now: when you have the chance to bring in genuine superstar talent, you do what it takes to make it happen.

Holland didn't do that, and now he's left having to beg to give up more to get back less from people who don't even care to listen.

And the last 4 years, the same types of stories keep repeating. You would think that losing Rafalski would have lit a fire under him to start looking for a Lidstrom replacement via any means necessary, but again, based on what he's said, not I, he wasn't interested in trading away so and so and such and such to make any sort of big move. But now that we're up against the wall, it's okay? Again, it would've been nice if he had approached these things in a realistic, business-like manner the last 4 years instead of waiting until we were left with a defense that didn't include Lidstrom, Rafalski, and Stuart and an offense that struggles to score goals when it counts.

But even when we had the defense, we couldn't get past the 2nd round, and last years 1st round exit was just embarrassing. Some draw we are now…

Some call it parity, but I think Holland's struggled to make decisions that could rock the boat when it's been obvious for some time that the boat was going to get rocked no matter what when Lidstrom left. He's consistently settled on trying to keep all the pieces he already has instead of swapping some out to get bigger pieces or pieces that simply better complement some of our current pieces. One of his strengths is in finding low-end or cheap talent that can contribute like Bert, Eaves and Miller, but instead of chasing those guys because he has no cap space after signing game-changers like Hossa, he's forced to chase them when they're the only option left at all and then expect what's likely too much out of them. And again, at this point, all those guys he refused to part with are either gone or currently being shopped around in a futile desperation act.

So, I don't know, feel free to love him unconditionally, but despite past successes, I find little reason to defend his handling of this team the last 4 years. I'm not taking anything away from the past success, but this is 4 years in a row now of Holland coming up short in my book. I defended him as long as I could, hoping that perhaps in the last minute he'd pull a rabbit out of his hat and make it all okay like he's done before. That would've minimized my distaste with his management the last 3 years, but at this point, it's clear he never had a solid plan at any point in time to prepare for this off-season.

I'm not even mad at him about this off-season. He did what he could in a desperate moment and came up short for logical and easily understandable reasons. But the thing is, successful people tend to find a way to get "desperate" before life forces it on them, leaving them with a lot more control and subsequently far more options and time to consider them. Holland failed to get "desperate" until life forced it on him, and thus had very little control and few options. And any way you shake it, at this point, he's failed to address the biggest hole that's ever been left by a player leaving this team.

He hasn't even come close to replacing Stuart (Quincey still has a lot to prove this otherwise) let alone Rafalski.

But Lidstrom?

To allow it to come to the point where it still hasn't been addressed in any way, shape or form this summer or in the last 3 offseasons is simply unacceptable. Holland didn't get serious about this until he absolutely had to; he procrastinated, and he came up with nothing. And now he has less bargaining power than he ever had as well.

He may be one of the best GM's in sports when history is taken into account, but he's now well into year four of a stretch where he has been anything but one of the best GM's. It may not kill his reputation, and it shouldn't, but it doesn't negate the fact that he's failed to address too many issues since our last serious Cup run. Maybe the management version of a Stanley Cup hangover lasts four years and looks like a guy clinging to past success too much instead of evolving. That's the closest I can come to a logical explanation for three seasons and four offseasons of doing next to nothing to tweak a team with balance issues let alone prepare for the post-Lidstrom/Rafalski/Stuart era.

Edited by gcom007, 18 July 2012 - 11:02 PM.

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#109 gcom007

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 11:21 PM

And the other thing is we're getting old and definitely past the prime window for winning a Cup. If the deal was to trade for Ryan 3 years ago you'd have to take it... but with Dats and Z both exiting their primes...


I wouldn't have bought this if we had a decent top defenseman to minimize the pain from Lidstrom leaving. I still think this team has a solid core in Datsyuk and Zetterberg for some time, but that's if Holland can get the right pieces around them. I think the key to success in the Cup-era more than ever is adaptability. Sometimes teams just need little tweaks here and there to shake things up and balance things out. I would've moved Flip years ago for more scoring power or in some package to bring in a Lidstrom replacement. Even if Flip isn't a fluke, by the time Datsyuk and Zetterberg are at a point where they're not still elite centers in this game, Flip's going to be well past a far less sunny prime anyways. Elite players still find ways to compete long into their careers, so Dats and Z won't fade fast if you ask me. Fluke or not, Flip will fade sooner as he just isn't even close to Dats or Z as a player in any way at all. And he'll be 29 this season after all; it's not like he's 24 coming off his first solid season.
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#110 danglesnipecelly13

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 11:31 PM

Honestly, if it were possible, I would not try to trade Flips. I would get rid of Franzen, yeah, but Flip is just getting hot in my mind. Yeah, he's 28. The last few years he has been a 30-40 point guy. He has added to his ice time and taken on more responsibility. Last year he grabbed 66 points. He's heating up and he could potentially be one of our higher point getters. A little rough around the edges, but he's getting there. Franzen is 32 and added 56 points, but I would just rather have the younger kid who could heat up to be 70-80 points on a good year. Just my two cents.

#111 ogreslayer

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 03:02 AM

Honestly, if it were possible, I would not try to trade Flips. I would get rid of Franzen, yeah, but Flip is just getting hot in my mind. Yeah, he's 28. The last few years he has been a 30-40 point guy. He has added to his ice time and taken on more responsibility. Last year he grabbed 66 points. He's heating up and he could potentially be one of our higher point getters. A little rough around the edges, but he's getting there. Franzen is 32 and added 56 points, but I would just rather have the younger kid who could heat up to be 70-80 points on a good year. Just my two cents.

Seeing the rumors leaked from the Rangers & Canes discussions with Howson & the players he was asking for, I still get the feeling that the 2 NHL proven forwards he would demand from Kenny in a trade for Nash would be Flip & Helm, not Franzen.

#112 IrishWing19

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 04:23 AM

Seeing the rumors leaked from the Rangers & Canes discussions with Howson & the players he was asking for, I still get the feeling that the 2 NHL proven forwards he would demand from Kenny in a trade for Nash would be Flip & Helm, not Franzen.


The offer was Filppula, Nyquist and 2013's first round pick. And they wouldn't even negotiate.

#113 stevkrause

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 07:09 AM

Holland made offers to the two big free agents and the biggest guy on the trade market, now that he's really up against the wall with no other choices, so he gets a pass? Oh, and he didn't get any deals done, but to me, that's never been the issue. Nash was always a huge longshot and if people really get upset about that, then it's just unfortunate.

But again, where was this thinking the last 4 years? You seem to deem it okay that Holland went after Nash as you're using it to defend him. Okay, well, we can only assume that his offer included Franzen and Flip, and we couldn't pass on or trade just one of those guys in 2009 to make keeping Hossa, a better all-around player than Nash, for far less money?

I said it then and I'll say it again now: when you have the chance to bring in genuine superstar talent, you do what it takes to make it happen.

Holland didn't do that, and now he's left having to beg to give up more to get back less from people who don't even care to listen.

And the last 4 years, the same types of stories keep repeating. You would think that losing Rafalski would have lit a fire under him to start looking for a Lidstrom replacement via any means necessary, but again, based on what he's said, not I, he wasn't interested in trading away so and so and such and such to make any sort of big move. But now that we're up against the wall, it's okay? Again, it would've been nice if he had approached these things in a realistic, business-like manner the last 4 years instead of waiting until we were left with a defense that didn't include Lidstrom, Rafalski, and Stuart and an offense that struggles to score goals when it counts.

But even when we had the defense, we couldn't get past the 2nd round, and last years 1st round exit was just embarrassing. Some draw we are now…

Some call it parity, but I think Holland's struggled to make decisions that could rock the boat when it's been obvious for some time that the boat was going to get rocked no matter what when Lidstrom left. He's consistently settled on trying to keep all the pieces he already has instead of swapping some out to get bigger pieces or pieces that simply better complement some of our current pieces. One of his strengths is in finding low-end or cheap talent that can contribute like Bert, Eaves and Miller, but instead of chasing those guys because he has no cap space after signing game-changers like Hossa, he's forced to chase them when they're the only option left at all and then expect what's likely too much out of them. And again, at this point, all those guys he refused to part with are either gone or currently being shopped around in a futile desperation act.

So, I don't know, feel free to love him unconditionally, but despite past successes, I find little reason to defend his handling of this team the last 4 years. I'm not taking anything away from the past success, but this is 4 years in a row now of Holland coming up short in my book. I defended him as long as I could, hoping that perhaps in the last minute he'd pull a rabbit out of his hat and make it all okay like he's done before. That would've minimized my distaste with his management the last 3 years, but at this point, it's clear he never had a solid plan at any point in time to prepare for this off-season.

I'm not even mad at him about this off-season. He did what he could in a desperate moment and came up short for logical and easily understandable reasons. But the thing is, successful people tend to find a way to get "desperate" before life forces it on them, leaving them with a lot more control and subsequently far more options and time to consider them. Holland failed to get "desperate" until life forced it on him, and thus had very little control and few options. And any way you shake it, at this point, he's failed to address the biggest hole that's ever been left by a player leaving this team.

He hasn't even come close to replacing Stuart (Quincey still has a lot to prove this otherwise) let alone Rafalski.

But Lidstrom?

To allow it to come to the point where it still hasn't been addressed in any way, shape or form this summer or in the last 3 offseasons is simply unacceptable. Holland didn't get serious about this until he absolutely had to; he procrastinated, and he came up with nothing. And now he has less bargaining power than he ever had as well.

He may be one of the best GM's in sports when history is taken into account, but he's now well into year four of a stretch where he has been anything but one of the best GM's. It may not kill his reputation, and it shouldn't, but it doesn't negate the fact that he's failed to address too many issues since our last serious Cup run. Maybe the management version of a Stanley Cup hangover lasts four years and looks like a guy clinging to past success too much instead of evolving. That's the closest I can come to a logical explanation for three seasons and four offseasons of doing next to nothing to tweak a team with balance issues let alone prepare for the post-Lidstrom/Rafalski/Stuart era.

Read all the posts in my sig if you actually want a response to this, I'm getting sick of repeating myself... although I'm sure it would fall on deaf ears anyway...

All I have to say about Holland and our off-season:

Here in this thread

Here in this one as well

Here in this one too

and finally

Here


Holland is a damn good GM. period.


#114 ogreslayer

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 08:15 AM

The offer was Filppula, Nyquist and 2013's first round pick. And they wouldn't even negotiate.

Source?

#115 Dabura

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Posted 20 July 2012 - 01:05 PM

Holland made offers to the two big free agents and the biggest guy on the trade market, now that he's really up against the wall with no other choices, so he gets a pass? Oh, and he didn't get any deals done, but to me, that's never been the issue. Nash was always a huge longshot and if people really get upset about that, then it's just unfortunate.

But again, where was this thinking the last 4 years? You seem to deem it okay that Holland went after Nash as you're using it to defend him. Okay, well, we can only assume that his offer included Franzen and Flip, and we couldn't pass on or trade just one of those guys in 2009 to make keeping Hossa, a better all-around player than Nash, for far less money?

I said it then and I'll say it again now: when you have the chance to bring in genuine superstar talent, you do what it takes to make it happen.

Holland didn't do that, and now he's left having to beg to give up more to get back less from people who don't even care to listen.

And the last 4 years, the same types of stories keep repeating. You would think that losing Rafalski would have lit a fire under him to start looking for a Lidstrom replacement via any means necessary, but again, based on what he's said, not I, he wasn't interested in trading away so and so and such and such to make any sort of big move. But now that we're up against the wall, it's okay? Again, it would've been nice if he had approached these things in a realistic, business-like manner the last 4 years instead of waiting until we were left with a defense that didn't include Lidstrom, Rafalski, and Stuart and an offense that struggles to score goals when it counts.

But even when we had the defense, we couldn't get past the 2nd round, and last years 1st round exit was just embarrassing. Some draw we are now…

Some call it parity, but I think Holland's struggled to make decisions that could rock the boat when it's been obvious for some time that the boat was going to get rocked no matter what when Lidstrom left. He's consistently settled on trying to keep all the pieces he already has instead of swapping some out to get bigger pieces or pieces that simply better complement some of our current pieces. One of his strengths is in finding low-end or cheap talent that can contribute like Bert, Eaves and Miller, but instead of chasing those guys because he has no cap space after signing game-changers like Hossa, he's forced to chase them when they're the only option left at all and then expect what's likely too much out of them. And again, at this point, all those guys he refused to part with are either gone or currently being shopped around in a futile desperation act.

So, I don't know, feel free to love him unconditionally, but despite past successes, I find little reason to defend his handling of this team the last 4 years. I'm not taking anything away from the past success, but this is 4 years in a row now of Holland coming up short in my book. I defended him as long as I could, hoping that perhaps in the last minute he'd pull a rabbit out of his hat and make it all okay like he's done before. That would've minimized my distaste with his management the last 3 years, but at this point, it's clear he never had a solid plan at any point in time to prepare for this off-season.

I'm not even mad at him about this off-season. He did what he could in a desperate moment and came up short for logical and easily understandable reasons. But the thing is, successful people tend to find a way to get "desperate" before life forces it on them, leaving them with a lot more control and subsequently far more options and time to consider them. Holland failed to get "desperate" until life forced it on him, and thus had very little control and few options. And any way you shake it, at this point, he's failed to address the biggest hole that's ever been left by a player leaving this team.

He hasn't even come close to replacing Stuart (Quincey still has a lot to prove this otherwise) let alone Rafalski.

But Lidstrom?

To allow it to come to the point where it still hasn't been addressed in any way, shape or form this summer or in the last 3 offseasons is simply unacceptable. Holland didn't get serious about this until he absolutely had to; he procrastinated, and he came up with nothing. And now he has less bargaining power than he ever had as well.

He may be one of the best GM's in sports when history is taken into account, but he's now well into year four of a stretch where he has been anything but one of the best GM's. It may not kill his reputation, and it shouldn't, but it doesn't negate the fact that he's failed to address too many issues since our last serious Cup run. Maybe the management version of a Stanley Cup hangover lasts four years and looks like a guy clinging to past success too much instead of evolving. That's the closest I can come to a logical explanation for three seasons and four offseasons of doing next to nothing to tweak a team with balance issues let alone prepare for the post-Lidstrom/Rafalski/Stuart era.


:thumbup:

Don't Toews me, bro!


#116 b.shanafan14

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Posted 20 July 2012 - 01:32 PM

Agree with gcom007: Don't blame Holland for this off-season, blame him for letting a winning team stagnate to mediocrity. Too many years "re-tooling" with old throw-away players like Bertuzzi and Williams. Too many 'alumni' who weren't great here in the first place brought back after their game had fallen off elsewhere, given the "but Cleary" stamp, and thought to be good enough (although, now bringing in a player like Semin is apparently not interesting?).

The last 3 years of Lidstrom's career not taken advantage of, and 3 years of Datsyuk and Zetterberg's prime wasted by refusing to give them the wingers they need to maximize production and/or minimize wear-and-tear: scorers and workers. This team was going to be worse after losing Lidstrom and Stuart, period. However, the team should have been preparing in advance, instead of 'tweeking' the formula.

I really believe Holland has been doing what he can and working his ass off this summer trying to fill gaps (except for waiting like every other GM on a long-shot in Doan instead of pursuing Semin), but its too little, too late at this point. As is, the Wings will be competitive next year like they were last year: get a low playoff seed, and then lose their first playoff series (and another year of D and Z's shelf-life).

#117 Manny>Ozzie(by a long shot)

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Posted 20 July 2012 - 03:59 PM

Source?


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