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We can still win it all THIS season, but...


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#21 Barrie

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 07:18 AM

It's funny how everyone on this board whines about getting younger... But when there's an opportunity of inserting Brunner and/or Nyquist into the top-6, everyone screams that Holland's an idiot and should sign Semin and Doan. Doan wants term... four years... He wants this to be his last contract. That means one less spot for the likes of Brunner, Nyquist, Tatar, Pulkkinen, Jarnkrok, Jurco... And a couple more years of whining about how the wings have to get younger. The same goes for Semin... If we sign him and he works out, and the wings sign him long-term next year, that means zero top-6 openings for a number of years... Unless of course you see Datsyuk, Doan and Franzen as the third line in 3 years.


Yea, let the kids play. Looking at the roster we have more than enough forwards, and more on the way. Semin and Doan will just take up space.

All we need is another defenceman, that is all.
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#22 Nightfall

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 07:20 AM

Oh, please. So by that logic, we should let these GM's off the hook if they can't get good, young guys because it's "hard". I'm sorry, but as a GM who's paid 6 million dollars a year, your JOB is to find a way to get-it-done.

Haha, so a GM that can't get good proven young talent from other clubs for our scraps is a bad GM? Let me give you a hint here....no GM can work that magic, especially in the new NHL. I don't care if you pay your GM 6 million or 60 million a year. No GM is going to perform the NHL version of the Louisiana Purchase. :D

Yea, let the kids play. Looking at the roster we have more than enough forwards, and more on the way. Semin and Doan will just take up space.

All we need is another defenceman, that is all.

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#23 TheXym

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 07:25 AM

Haha, so a GM that can't get good proven young talent from other clubs for our scraps is a bad GM? Let me give you a hint here....no GM can work that magic, especially in the new NHL. I don't care if you pay your GM 6 million or 60 million a year. No GM is going to perform the NHL version of the Louisiana Purchase. :D


That is one ridiculous amount of wampum. ;) I got a chuckle out of that. Plus, with Detroit being the "gold standard" the last 15-20 years, I would guess that most, if not all, of the others GM's are hoping to see the Wings take a fall in the near future and want at least a bit more from them in trade than another team to try to precipitate that fall, rather than help them.

Edited by TheXym, 19 July 2012 - 07:26 AM.

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#24 Dave

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 07:34 AM

Oh, please. So by that logic, we should let these GM's off the hook if they can't get good, young guys because it's "hard". I'm sorry, but as a GM who's paid 6 million dollars a year, your JOB is to find a way to get-it-done.


Seriously, how is this suppose to happen when pending FAs are almost always signing extensions with their teams? Should we have offer sheeted 150million to Weber? Should we have thrown the bank at Suter for 120 million? That's how basketball teams are built but it doesn't work so well in the NHL. You can't have 3 great players and a bunch of AHLers.

#25 ShanahanMan

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 07:38 AM

Haha, so a GM that can't get good proven young talent from other clubs for our scraps is a bad GM? Let me give you a hint here....no GM can work that magic, especially in the new NHL. I don't care if you pay your GM 6 million or 60 million a year. No GM is going to perform the NHL version of the Louisiana Purchase. :D


At the end of the day, regardless of what your excuse is..... if the decisions you make/don't make as a GM are gradually leading your team to become weaker and weaker, than you're simply not doing a good job as GM. Simple.


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#26 Danielsm

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 08:41 AM

I hate how these ridiculous trade threads keep popping up. You're not a GM, you do not know what's going on behind the scenes. You expect Holland to do backflips with a broken spine.

#27 RedWingsDad

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 08:42 AM

We wont get doan for 6 mill one year if he already was offered a longer term at 7.5...


Your basing this on.... what? Your statement makes the assumption that contract length + $$$ is *all* that matters to Doan. Clearly it's not all the matters as he is contemplating leaving the Yotes due to the uncertain future of the franchise. He wants to know where he will live for the next 3-4 years and the chance to win a cup more than anything else i'd wager. I am not saying Doan will sign with the Wings, but we can offer a consistent cup contending team and a fair contract.
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#28 dustyrhoades9687

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 08:47 AM

Who is Trade ? Is he good. $3mil seems steep for a guy named Trade :cheesy:


Lmao that's epic

#29 RedWingsDad

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 08:47 AM

Uh, no. You're leaving out a critical point from that statement. We're actually whining about getting younger with proven talent. Brunner and Nyquist are not, as of now, proven NHL top-6 forwards and until then, yes, we will continue to whine about getting younger with proven NHL caliber players.


I get your point, but I think it's somewhat of a naive position. Yes, it's possible to trade / sign young proven talent, but they are difficult / expensive to obtain. It seems that if you have the position of wanting young talent, it is smart to take a shot on your own prospects. In other words, it seems you should be happy to give Brunner and Nyquist time and applaud Ken Holland for doing so, given your position.
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#30 dustyrhoades9687

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 08:57 AM

That was gospel yo(redwings dad). But drop franzen add miller to abbys line and move sammy t franzens position and it looks a hell of a lot better.

#31 Nightfall

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 09:11 AM

At the end of the day, regardless of what your excuse is..... if the decisions you make/don't make as a GM are gradually leading your team to become weaker and weaker, than you're simply not doing a good job as GM. Simple.

Decisions like throwing the bank at a couple players result in a couple years of harmony and years of mediocrity. I would rather the Wings have a good roster and make the playoffs every year than sign Parise and Suter for 10 years for huge money, and then not make the playoffs for the last 5-6 years of that deal.

So far, all I have heard from you is that "Holland isn't doing enough". What would you have done if you were in his spot? Trade away all your young talent to win now? Sign Weber to a $120 million dollar offer sheet? The way the Wings are built now, they will make the playoffs. After that, as evidenced by the Kings this season, anything can happen once the playoffs start and it doesn't matter where you place.
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#32 F.Michael

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 09:17 AM

Decisions like throwing the bank at a couple players result in a couple years of harmony and years of mediocrity.

I dunno about that...

Holland was forced to do so with Fedorov...The same could be said at the time about Datsyuk...It's a team by team thing - for some it'll work, and others it's blow up in their faces.

Although I agree with your example of Parise (and Suter) with Minnesota; no doubt they'll be a "better" team, but those 2 guys alone won't make them a legit contender for the Cup.

Weber in Philly I feel is a toss-up; we'll see if they have to make any more moves in order to stay under the cap if it were to drop with the new CBA.

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#33 haroldsnepsts

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 09:39 AM

Decisions like throwing the bank at a couple players result in a couple years of harmony and years of mediocrity. I would rather the Wings have a good roster and make the playoffs every year than sign Parise and Suter for 10 years for huge money, and then not make the playoffs for the last 5-6 years of that deal.

So far, all I have heard from you is that "Holland isn't doing enough". What would you have done if you were in his spot? Trade away all your young talent to win now? Sign Weber to a $120 million dollar offer sheet? The way the Wings are built now, they will make the playoffs. After that, as evidenced by the Kings this season, anything can happen once the playoffs start and it doesn't matter where you place.

I'm not sure the Kings are the best example for the point you're making.

I's overlooking that the Kings traded two promising young players and a pick to bring in Richards before the season started, fired their coach halfway through the season, and traded away a talented young defenseman they had signed long term to bring in Carter. They also called up two kids from the minors and gave them a lot of playing time in spite of their lack of experience.

Those are all very bold moves and un-Holland like. It's not like the Kings made minor tweaks, got into the playoffs then suddenly everything fell into place. They were a good team for a couple seasons, especially defensively, that made very bold moves to get them to the Cup.

#34 Nightfall

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 09:45 AM

I dunno about that...

Holland was forced to do so with Fedorov...The same could be said at the time about Datsyuk...It's a team by team thing - for some it'll work, and others it's blow up in their faces.

Although I agree with your example of Parise (and Suter) with Minnesota; no doubt they'll be a "better" team, but those 2 guys alone won't make them a legit contender for the Cup.

Weber in Philly I feel is a toss-up; we'll see if they have to make any more moves in order to stay under the cap if it were to drop with the new CBA.

Can't really compare the Fedorov situation with today. There was no salary cap back then. Dats' salary is representative of a top line player.

Otherwise, we are in total agreement.

I'm not sure the Kings are the best example for the point you're making.

I's overlooking that the Kings traded two promising young players and a pick to bring in Richards before the season started, fired their coach halfway through the season, and traded away a talented young defenseman they had signed long term to bring in Carter. They also called up two kids from the minors and gave them a lot of playing time in spite of their lack of experience.

Those are all very bold moves and un-Holland like. It's not like the Kings made minor tweaks, got into the playoffs then suddenly everything fell into place. They were a good team for a couple seasons, especially defensively, that made very bold moves to get them to the Cup.

Very true, but my point of just getting into the playoffs still stands.

Holland will have to make some bold moves this year in order to excel in the playoffs. Giving kids top line minutes and hoping they shine. He may even have to go after players that are floundering on teams and get them to come here, which means more bold moves. Right now, the only thing we know is that Holland is going to give kids the ice time they need to either sink or swim. Very un-Holland like? Yes. Bold moves? Yes. Give him a little credit for at least making the bold decision to do that.
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#35 haroldsnepsts

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 10:01 AM

Can't really compare the Fedorov situation with today. There was no salary cap back then. Dats' salary is representative of a top line player.

Otherwise, we are in total agreement.


Very true, but my point of just getting into the playoffs still stands.

Holland will have to make some bold moves this year in order to excel in the playoffs. Giving kids top line minutes and hoping they shine. He may even have to go after players that are floundering on teams and get them to come here, which means more bold moves. Right now, the only thing we know is that Holland is going to give kids the ice time they need to either sink or swim. Very un-Holland like? Yes. Bold moves? Yes. Give him a little credit for at least making the bold decision to do that.

Honestly I don't consider that a very bold move, as right now he doesn't really have a choice. Unless he makes some big free agent splash or trade, the kids are gonna get plenty of ice time.

A bolder move would've been giving Smith ice time last year to get him some time with Lidstrom. Even with his mistakes, Smith clearly had more to offer than Kindl, but was his contract status determined his fate not his performance on the ice.

#36 Nightfall

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 12:53 PM

Honestly I don't consider that a very bold move, as right now he doesn't really have a choice. Unless he makes some big free agent splash or trade, the kids are gonna get plenty of ice time.

A bolder move would've been giving Smith ice time last year to get him some time with Lidstrom. Even with his mistakes, Smith clearly had more to offer than Kindl, but was his contract status determined his fate not his performance on the ice.

After thinking about what you said, I agree. At first, I thought your line of reasoning was a line of horse crap. Then, what I got to think about it, I realized how correct you were. Bold moves are made when you have choices. Holland has no choice at this point. Playing Smith last year with Lids would have been a bold move, but instead, they put him on the 3rd line. I know I was clamoring for Smith to be paired with Lids on the top line for the entire season. That would have really helped with his maturity and defensive skills. Instead, Ian White got to play with Lids and do well. I bet Smith would have gotten more out of it though.
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#37 LeftWinger

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 04:29 PM

We can still win it all THIS season, but...the team still has Franzine on it...

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#38 brett

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 04:55 PM

I for one am not excited about this season. nothing to look forward to, basically same team that failed last season but our defense got worse

#39 Nightfall

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 07:03 PM

I for one am not excited about this season. nothing to look forward to, basically same team that failed last season but our defense got worse

I hear the Flyers forum is accepting registrations. :D

Maybe they will be more of a contender for you.
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#40 Dabura

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 07:04 PM

Yes, all we need is a defenseman. Doesn't even have to be top-4 material, just some "depth" is all.

Right.

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