475 replies to this topic

[Buppy]

I recall this quote by some dude named Gretzky that went "You'll always miss 100% of the shots you don't take", Mr. Holland needs to take that advice...

One might reasonably conclude that inquiring about Weber's interest in playing here would qualify as a "shot".

[WingsAlways]

One might reasonably conclude that inquiring about Weber's interest in playing here would qualify as a "shot".

I meant that Holland should have taken the "shot" and threw Weber an offer sheet. He could have either signed it or crumpled up and tossed it in the trash but at least we could say we tried. I'd like that better than "no use even trying, he wouldn't have signed it anyways" you know?

[Buppy]

I meant that Holland should have taken the "shot" and threw Weber an offer sheet. He could have either signed it or crumpled up and tossed it in the trash but at least we could say we tried. I'd like that better than "no use even trying, he wouldn't have signed it anyways" you know?

You're grasping at straws for something to criticize.

[Shaman464]

One might reasonably conclude that inquiring about Weber's interest in playing here would qualify as a "shot".

Seems like he was a day late and a dollar short, asking after Philly had already all but sealed it.

[WingsAlways]

You're grasping at straws for something to criticize.

Hardly, if that was the case I could close my eyes and grab a handful.

[Buppy]

Seems like he was a day late and a dollar short, asking after Philly had already all but sealed it.

From here.

The Tennessean reported that Weber visited Detroit, Philadelphia, San Jose and the New York Rangers after free agency began July 1.

[Shaman464]

From here.

The Wings seemed to do everything they could to engage Weber to try and find out what he was looking for in a deal, but never were able to entice his camp into negotiating.

This is worse than Holland just being late to the party.

[Buppy]

Hardly, if that was the case I could close my eyes and grab a handful.

You act like he was just speculating about Weber's lack of interest. But the reports all indicate that Weber's camp said they weren't interested. At that point submitting a formal offer is basically pointless.

I suppose you could assume they were just lying about not not being interested, because I'm sure that happens in negotiations all the time. Then after they reject the first offer, you should assume it was an accident and send another. Then you assume they were just kidding around, then spilled coffee on it, then were playing hard to get, then needed to burn one for warmth, then wanted to make paper airplanes, then experimenting to see if they can re-combine all that paper back into a living tree... Hell, just fax him an offer every minute of every day. Send af****** parade of Korean bike messengers with confetti guns to rain tiny pink, blue, and yellow formal offer sheets all over Nashville. Due dilligence, you know.

Or you could just assume that no means no. Not like you would really be satisfied if we had submitted a formal offer and were rejected.

[Shaman464]

You act like he was just speculating about Weber's lack of interest. But the reports all indicate that Weber's camp said they weren't interested. At that point submitting a formal offer is basically pointless.

I suppose you could assume they were just lying about not not being interested, because I'm sure that happens in negotiations all the time. Then after they reject the first offer, you should assume it was an accident and send another. Then you assume they were just kidding around, then spilled coffee on it, then were playing hard to get, then needed to burn one for warmth, then wanted to make paper airplanes, then experimenting to see if they can re-combine all that paper back into a living tree... Hell, just fax him an offer every minute of every day. Send af****** parade of Korean bike messengers with confetti guns to rain tiny pink, blue, and yellow formal offer sheets all over Nashville. Due dilligence, you know.

Or you could just assume that no means no. Not like you would really be satisfied if we had submitted a formal offer and were rejected.

Still haven't seen an answer to why players seem uninterested in competitive offers from Holland to play on the Wings? That seems to me at least to be a worse sign than Holland just sitting on his laurels. What do the players this offseason who are trying to cash in and be on competitive teams seeing of not seeing in this organization that makes them not want to sign here? Because Suter/Parise/Semin/Doan/Weber if they wanted to play here I am sure could have communicated the offers from other teams and probably gotten it.

[Buppy]

nm

Edited by Buppy, 22 July 2012 - 10:06 PM.

[Buppy]

Still haven't seen an answer to why players seem uninterested in competitive offers from Holland to play on the Wings? That seems to me at least to be a worse sign than Holland just sitting on his laurels. What do the players this offseason who are trying to cash in and be on competitive teams seeing of not seeing in this organization that makes them not want to sign here? Because Suter/Parise/Semin/Doan/Weber if they wanted to play here I am sure could have communicated the offers from other teams and probably gotten it.

There are a lot of players in the league, and a lot of teams. If you expect the Wings to be the top choice for every single one of them, you are expecting too much. Also, if you think a player signing with another team means they had no interest at all in playing here, you are not being rational.

The only players we know of that weren't interested in an offer are Weber and Schultz. I don't see how that is a big deal.

[Shaman464]

Getting harder and harder to discuss anything here without resorting to personal attacks. I guess our success is to blame for our embarassing lack of fortitude in the face of adversity.

Why would you need to use a personal attack? I am pointing out there seems to be something going on here affecting these players deciding that Detroit is not where they want to be. Its not the money this year, the money is there, no ifs and or buts, they have enough to sign the player they need to continue to both contend and compete. Once that X factor is found then we can argue whose fault it is, or if its something outside the control of the organization, but until then we are all speculating about whether it is Holland or not. I have a feeling hes not without blame, but I hold the right to withhold complete judgement until we have more information. That being said, unless you are deluded its hard not to see this team has regressed since last year, and some of us aren't in love with that fact. Granted there is Monday morning quarterbacking going here, but, its the offseason and if we can't do that, we have 3-4 months of 'how bout those Tigers?'

There are a lot of players in the league, and a lot of teams. If you expect the Wings to be the top choice for every single one of them, you are expecting too much. Also, if you think a player signing with another team means they had no interest at all in playing here, you are not being rational.

The only players we know of that weren't interested in an offer are Weber and Schultz. I don't see how that is a big deal.

Add Parise to that list as well. Since it was no secret that Suter was going wherever Parise went, you can add him to that list as well. So we have 4 players there, it seems the Wings have offers on the table for Doan and Semin and until the cards fall I will not say why they did or did not choose Detroit, but it seems Detroit as their destination is not a scale tipper for them anymore.

[Buppy]

Why would you need to use a personal attack?

Add Parise to that list as well. Since it was no secret that Suter was going wherever Parise went, you can add him to that list as well. So we have 4 players there, it seems the Wings have offers on the table for Doan and Semin and until the cards fall I will not say why they did or did not choose Detroit, but it seems Detroit as their destination is not a scale tipper for them anymore.

I find it difficult to avoid personal attacks because I get frustrated by people who I believe are unreasonable. I want to respond with rational debate, but I feel like it would be pointless.

Case in point: You say Suter and Parise did not want to play in Detroit. The truth is only that Detroit did not end up being their top choice. There's a big difference there. A player may want to play for multiple teams, but they can only choose one. Expecting everyone to want to play here more than they want to play anywhere else, and concluding that if they don't it means they didn't want to play here at all is irrational and unreasonable. I said as much in my previous reply and you still failed to grasp the concept. Hence why I feel rational debate is pointless.

There isn't any great organizational malfunction that needs to be addressed. No dereliction of duty. No flawed schemata. s*** does happen. We missed out on a couple free agents, s*** happens. It could be just a speed bump, or it could send us right off the track into a catastrophic crash. This is what is supposed to happen. This is how the system is designed. What goes up must come down. Since when is maintaining a top contender in perpetuity the new standard for adequacy in sports? What franchise, ever, in the history of any sport, has remained among the elite for nearly two decades without a single blemish?

Maybe it all isn't as easy as some think. Maybe things don't happen just because you want them to or because you can write them out on a message board and make them sound reasonable. Maybe when decisions are made, even those based on impeccable reasoning, they don't always work out. Maybe you give a solid effort but still fall short. Maybe sometimes those failures compound into situations that have no ready solution. Maybe speculating in hindsight on what might have been done better isn't the best way to evaluate performance. Maybe "consistently exceeding all reasonable expectations" shouldn't be what we expect from our management. Maybe a guy with such a sterling record deserves a little more respect. Maybe we can give a guy af****** break.

But I guess it makes us feel better to rant and finger-point. Have fun with it I guess. I'll continue trying to resist my more choleric urges.

[Crymson]

Add Parise to that list as well. Since it was no secret that Suter was going wherever Parise went, you can add him to that list as well. So we have 4 players there, it seems the Wings have offers on the table for Doan and Semin and until the cards fall I will not say why they did or did not choose Detroit, but it seems Detroit as their destination is not a scale tipper for them anymore.

You are really reaching for the moon in your efforts to push that argument. Parise was NOT guaranteed to go wherever Suter went. That is absolutely incorrect. It was made known after the signings that had Suter signed anywhere but in Minnesota, Parise would have re-signed with the Devils. Suter ended up choosing Minnesota because it was close to home and because it was the sole team with which Parise would sign alongside him.

At least do your due research.

But I guess it makes us feel better to rant and finger-point.

Pretty much.

Still haven't seen an answer to why players seem uninterested in competitive offers from Holland to play on the Wings? That seems to me at least to be a worse sign than Holland just sitting on his laurels. What do the players this offseason who are trying to cash in and be on competitive teams seeing of not seeing in this organization that makes them not want to sign here? Because Suter/Parise/Semin/Doan/Weber if they wanted to play here I am sure could have communicated the offers from other teams and probably gotten it.

Here's a really viable and extremely obvious answer: MONEY. Some players want to get paid, and if they receive much better offers from other teams than they from the Wings, then, well, that'll be a factor in them possibly not choosing to sign here.

As for Semin and Doan, you have precisely no idea of the offers that have been served to them by the league's teams.

Edited by Crymson, 23 July 2012 - 02:09 AM.

[Shaman464]

You are really reaching for the moon in your efforts to push that argument. Parise was NOT guaranteed to go wherever Suter went. That is absolutely incorrect. It was made known after the signings that had Suter signed anywhere but in Minnesota, Parise would have re-signed with the Devils. Suter ended up choosing Minnesota because it was close to home and because it was the sole team with which Parise would sign alongside him.

At least do your due research.



Pretty much.



Here's a really viable and extremely obvious answer: MONEY. Some players want to get paid, and if they receive much better offers from other teams than they from the Wings, then, well, that'll be a factor in them possibly not choosing to sign here.

As for Semin and Doan, you have precisely no idea of the offers that have been served to them by the league's teams.

Ahem, I said Suter was going where Parise went, not vice versa and as that's exactly what happened, it seems the evidence supports my claim. So Parise is added to the list because at least everything I have seen says that he never realistically considered Detroit as an option for his landing point. And as it seems you agree, that add credence to my point. As for the money, this year the Red Wings have it, more than most, and they had less roster spaces to fill and real easily identifiable holes on that roster, Crymson we both know if Suter/Weber/Parise/etc came to Holland and said 'Hey, I want to play for Detroit, Minny/Philly offered me x amount, if you match ill wear the Winged Wheel' I am sure Holland would have matched. Money is not an excuse this offseason. Finally as for Semin and Doan, I have and idea what they have been offered, do I know all the finite details? No, but, seeing as nothing is secret these days, with a little bit of work, its not hard to at least get a decent idea of whats going on. So long as their are smart phones, idiots with thumbs, and the internet, there will never be that may surprises.

[vladdy16]

This thread has jumped the rails. Maybe everyone should continue the discussion in the "Has Detroit Lost Its Luster" thread, or one of the several others that cover the 4 different topics being discussed here.