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Holland losing his moxie? Is Detroit slipping as UFA destination?

ken holland

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#201 F.Michael

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 12:45 PM

Howard? Overrated. Let's see how he does with a porous defense where he might actually face a few shots.
Kronwall? Second pairing defenseman on a good team.
Filppula? Third liner. Guess how many times he's scored over 40 points? Once, last year. He has one good year and suddenly he's top 6 material? I don't think so.
Hudler? He's another third liner. Top 6 if he's playing with a good center maybe. Doesn't matter though, he walked.
Quincey? He's never scored more than 38 points in a season and has been a plus player only one time. He's a second or third pairing guy.

I think you're reaching A LOT here. None of these players are elite. Howard is the closest thing to it and even he can be pretty suspect at times.

Pretty much agree with your opinions - however I disagree on Howard, and Hudler...

I personally don't think Howard is over rated as some would think, and I still feel Hudler is a glorified 3rd liner/pp specialist.

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#202 centcougar07

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 01:34 PM

Pretty much agree with your opinions - however I disagree on Howard, and Hudler...

I personally don't think Howard is over rated as some would think, and I still feel Hudler is a glorified 3rd liner/pp specialist.


I'm not saying Howard isn't a good goaltender... But he's not elite status like Lundqvist, Quick or anyone else in that upper echelon of tendys. His career goals against is around 2.5 I believe. Not bad but during a regular NHL season that's about average. He's a good, solid goalie but he's being revered as one of the best in the league when really his numbers show he isn't deserving. If he has a season this year where he lowers his GAA and raises his S% a little bit, with 30+ wins.. Then we can start talking about putting him in the category of elite. As of right now, he's just above average for me. This year is going to be a tough test for him with a very suspect defense in front of him.

#203 frankgrimes

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 01:36 PM

Golden rule: don't feed the trolls (quote, reply, pm....) and they're gone as quick as possible.

Anyhow just wanted to mention something:

Ray Shero (Penguins GM) what has he done this offseason? despite the Staaltrade nothing
Chiarelli (Bruins GM) less than both
Poile (Predators GM) resigned his starplayer other than that?
Lombardi (stanleycup winning team GM) brought back the whole team again

So the top 5 GMs haven't done any ridiculous overspending on non-eliteplayers, did all these teams lose their motio or maybe just maybe, spending for the sake of spending with an uncertain CBA is not the best way to handle a franchise longterm?

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#204 centcougar07

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 01:43 PM

Nope, I have yet to hit the bong today, but I will heartily disagree with you , Howard's proved himself to be a top 10 goalie in this league, and that's supported by the last 3 years of his play. We have not been a strong defensive club in the last couple seasons, yet his career numbers are well within the realm of "very good?" just for example here are some goalies that have been commonly labeled as elite the past few seasons , .917 and 2.41 respectively for Howard. Miller .915, 2.57, Price .916 2.56, Kiprusoff .914 2.45, Backstrom .918, 2.42, Luongo .919, 2.52, Fleury .909, 2.68, Ward .910, 2.74.

Just because you do not want to believe facts and projections don't mean they don't exist. He may not be Lundqviust(Who in my opinion has separated himself over this current generation after Brodeur), or Quick(yet) doesn't mean he's going to hurt us as a goaltender, he's a strength for our team and continues to improve year in year out.

Maybe the Wing's will stop being so aggressive offensively and stop giving up odd man rushes? We were caught pinching, with no forward high in the zone so many times last season and Howard still had a Vezina nomination type season especially before his injury.


So you basically just showed via stats that Backstrom = Howard. Howard had the same numbers on a far superior team and Backstrom isn't even that good. What does that say about Howard supposedly being "elite".

Edited by haroldsnepsts, 31 July 2012 - 01:46 PM.
edited to remove deleted post.


#205 haroldsnepsts

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 01:48 PM

Last warning people.

Just because it's not directed right at the person doesn't mean it's not a personal attack.

No more discussions of trolling, who's a troll, who's acting like a troll. Talk hockey or expect suspensions/bans.

And as I've said ad nauseum, discuss the content of the post, not the person making it.

#206 Carman

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 01:53 PM

So you basically just showed via stats that Backstrom = Howard. Howard had the same numbers on a far superior team and Backstrom isn't even that good. What does that say about Howard supposedly being "elite".


Yep sure did not sure why you want to rag on your vezina runner up goaltender just to fit your argument, but I enjoy the 4 million difference in salary and 6 years in age between the two. Backstrom also played in the Jacques Lemaire system(You know that neutral zone trap) for his first 3 or 4 seasons. Howard's "eliteness", never came from me the career statistics just show even with a terrible second year that he's in the conversation of top the top tier behind Lundqvist/Quick, do I think he's in with those two yet? No, but I think he's on the brink of it . He's had elite streches, and his first, and second season he was pretty solidly in the top 6 statistically with other goalies playing 50+ games.

Edited by Carman, 31 July 2012 - 01:54 PM.


#207 haroldsnepsts

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 01:56 PM

I wouldn't call Howard elite but like Osgood I think he is a great value goaltender. He provides solid goaltending at a decent contract so the Wings can spend money elsewhere.

Without Lidstrom and the blueline in its current state, it'll be interesting to see if that strategy is as effective.

#208 Carman

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 02:05 PM

I wouldn't call Howard elite but like Osgood I think he is a great value goaltender. He provides solid goaltending at a decent contract so the Wings can spend money elsewhere.

Without Lidstrom and the blueline in its current state, it'll be interesting to see if that strategy is as effective.


Now I'm a little young to remember Osgood's years, but how often was he well within the top 6 for GAA/SV%. I agree about not calling Howard elite, but he provides more than solid goaltending I would say, he was 3rd in GAA and 7th in SV% last season. He's the 28th highest paid goalie, and well within the top 10 for performance. Sure it's great value, but are Vezina candidates the only goalies that provide more than solid?

#209 predmonkee

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 02:05 PM

Golden rule: don't feed the trolls (quote, reply, pm....) and they're gone as quick as possible.


So the top 5 GMs haven't done any ridiculous overspending on non-eliteplayers, did all these teams lose their motio or maybe just maybe, spending for the sake of spending with an uncertain CBA is not the best way to handle a franchise longterm?


Best post I've read. This offseason lacks in quality free agents and with the uncertainty of the CbA, there is no reason to overspend just for the sake of spending money. The risk outweighs the reward.

#210 haroldsnepsts

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 02:12 PM

Now I'm a little young to remember Osgood's years, but how often was he well within the top 6 for GAA/SV%. I agree about not calling Howard elite, but he provides more than solid goaltending I would say, he was 3rd in GAA and 7th in SV% last season. He's the 28th highest paid goalie, and well within the top 10 for performance. Sure it's great value, but are Vezina candidates the only goalies that provide more than solid?

Howard was tied for 10th in SV% last season. I don't think GAA is a a very good stat for goaltenders.

I guess it's semantics really. I think he's very good, just not elite. And being a frontrunner for the Vezina early in the season isn't the same as being a Vezina candidate. By the end of the season Jimmy wasn't in the conversation at all.

#211 Carman

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 02:18 PM

Howard was tied for 10th in SV% last season. I don't think GAA is a a very good stat for goaltenders.

I guess it's semantics really. I think he's very good, just not elite. And being a frontrunner for the Vezina early in the season isn't the same as being a Vezina candidate. By the end of the season Jimmy wasn't in the conversation at all.


Not for goalies that played more than 50 games, that's usually what is needed to be in the award discussions is why I used it as evidenced by Elliot not being in the conversation with other worldly numbers.

EDIT: Nevermind I'm an idiot that was a fan poll.

Edited by Carman, 31 July 2012 - 02:20 PM.


#212 haroldsnepsts

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 02:28 PM

Not for goalies that played more than 50 games, that's usually what is needed to be in the award discussions is why I used it as evidenced by Elliot not being in the conversation with other worldly numbers.

Also Jimmy Howard did receive a vote, so I guess he was in the conversation along with Smith, Quick, and Rinne.
http://www.sbnation....a-trophy-winner

That looks like the vote totals for the bloggers on that site voting for the Vezina.

This source doesn't have him getting a vote at all.
http://sports.yahoo....04507--nhl.html

Either way are you saying that getting one vote is being in the conversation for the Vezina?

One vote or not, Jimmy was in no way a part of the Vezina conversation at the end of the season with names like Lunqvist, Quick, Smith, Rinne, and Halak.

#213 Carman

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 02:37 PM

That looks like the vote totals for the bloggers on that site voting for the Vezina.

This source doesn't have him getting a vote at all.
http://sports.yahoo....04507--nhl.html

Either way are you saying that getting one vote is being in the conversation for the Vezina?

One vote or not, Jimmy was in no way a part of the Vezina conversation at the end of the season with names like Lunqvist, Quick, Smith, Rinne, and Halak.


Man I fixed that right after I posted haha. And that wasn't being serious with one vote anyways, just thought it would be funny without really checking it out.

But my point was you don't need to be a Vezina candidate to provide better than solid goaltending, pretty much looks like semantics on what constitutes solid.

#214 haroldsnepsts

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 02:45 PM

Man I fixed that right after I posted haha. And that wasn't being serious with one vote anyways, just thought it would be funny without really checking it out.

But my point was you don't need to be a Vezina candidate to provide better than solid goaltending, pretty much looks like semantics on what constitutes solid.

Solid is probably understating it. I didn't mean he was middle of the pack.

Like I said in another post, he's very good. He just hasn't been elite (yet).

#215 Crymson

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 02:53 PM

Howard was tied for 10th in SV% last season. I don't think GAA is a a very good stat for goaltenders.

I guess it's semantics really. I think he's very good, just not elite. And being a frontrunner for the Vezina early in the season isn't the same as being a Vezina candidate. By the end of the season Jimmy wasn't in the conversation at all.


Jimmy was absolutely in the Vezina picture in the first half of the season. He kept the Wings afloat for the first 30 games, and was generally playing excellent hockey. His play took a downturn after his string of strange injuries began. I think he just wasn't able to find his stride again with the constant stop/go.

He's an excellent goalie.

#216 esteef

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 03:30 PM

Ray Shero (Penguins GM) what has he done this offseason? despite the Staaltrade nothing
Chiarelli (Bruins GM) less than both
Poile (Predators GM) resigned his starplayer other than that?
Lombardi (stanleycup winning team GM) brought back the whole team again

So the top 5 GMs haven't done any ridiculous overspending on non-eliteplayers, did all these teams lose their motio or maybe just maybe, spending for the sake of spending with an uncertain CBA is not the best way to handle a franchise longterm?


Do any of those teams have glaring holes like the Wings? Did any of them lose half of their top 4 D this offseason? Do those teams lack scoring wingers? Has any of them sat on their ass the last couple of years knowing glaring holes were coming or already apparent? Who cares about what other GMs are doing?

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#217 gcom007

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 03:47 PM

Now I'm a little young to remember Osgood's years, but how often was he well within the top 6 for GAA/SV%. I agree about not calling Howard elite, but he provides more than solid goaltending I would say, he was 3rd in GAA and 7th in SV% last season. He's the 28th highest paid goalie, and well within the top 10 for performance. Sure it's great value, but are Vezina candidates the only goalies that provide more than solid?


Not to bag on Howard as I like the guy and think he's very good, but he's yet to fully prove himself in the post-season, whereas Osgood has, including in an outstanding 2009 run where he in many ways carried a crippled team to game 7 of the Finals before succumbing by 1 goal. Howard hasn't gotten much help though in his time, though again, in 2009, Osgood didn't either when you consider how many major injuries this team was dealing with, including to Lidstrom who actually missed games in the Playoffs.

I think Howard has what it takes to win on a team that can get the job done, but he's yet to prove he's an elite goalie when it counts most. And considering the ups and downs of many goalies careers, I still think it's a little tough to accurately judge Howard. He was great for most of the season last year before injury, but never returned to previous form once he was back in the lineup. He wasn't bad in the playoffs but he wasn't any better than the rest of the team, and the team thoroughly lost that series.

In any event, any way you shake it at this point, we're going to learn a lot about Jimmy Howard this season. Even if Holland makes some moves to strengthen the D, they're not going to be as strong as they've been the last few years. If Howard can make up for it and keep us in the playoff hunt and be a lights out post-season goalie, he'll deserve to be named among the elite. Until then, despite flashes of brilliance, it's tough to say he's among the best. The potential is obviously there, but the consistency and post-season success has yet to really surface.

But generally speaking, I think we're far too quick to throw out the term "elite goalie" in general these days. So many so-called "elite goalies" haven't had post-season success and if anything, have bombed in the post-season. Unless you're Hasek level great, I think it's tough to say a goalie is elite that hasn't taken his team deep into the playoffs. It's just too important of a part of the game to ignore. Hasek was able to give a lousy team a chance every night in his prime. He was elite despite not winning a Cup. I don't think you can say that about that many guys today.

But people didn't say that about Osgood either, and he has 3 Cup rings, 2 as a starter, was on the brink of a 3rd as well as a Conn Smythe trophy, and in his last Cup winning series, started the series by shutting out the powerhouse Penguins twice in a row.

So Luongo is elite, they say, but what is he best known for in the post-season?
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#218 Carman

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 03:58 PM

Do any of those teams have glaring holes like the Wings? Did any of them lose half of their top 4 D this offseason? Do those teams lack scoring wingers? Has any of them sat on their ass the last couple of years knowing glaring holes were coming or already apparent? Who cares about what other GMs are doing?

esteef

Do any of those teams have glaring holes like the Wings? Did any of them lose half of their top 4 D this offseason? Do those teams lack scoring wingers? Has any of them sat on their ass the last couple of years knowing glaring holes were coming or already apparent? Who cares about what other GMs are doing?

esteef


Sammy is a 10-30 point upgrade to Holmstrom, Brunner/Nyquist are question marks, but Nyuist's .97 PPG vastly outperformed Hudler's .76 PPG in the AHL, so it's not a huge leap of faith to assume Nyquist can fill in. Tootoo is an upgrade to anyone on the 4th line for us last season. Cleary should improve his 12 goals are far below his average. Helm can stay healthy and play 70+ games and help you. Datsyuk doesn't miss 12+ games, and gets back to scoring 80+ points along with Zetterberg.

I don't see why you have to be negative about the forwards, it's only a game, why you have to be mad? Did any of those teams have the depth we did? Pittsburgh's defense is not much better than ours if at all, even without Lidstrom/Stuart. If anything we have the younger and more potential defense.
Kronwall, White, Quincey, Ericsson, Smith and Kindl is about the same if not better than Letang, Martin(absolute disaster), Orpik, Michalek, Niskanen(very iff), Engelland/Lovejoy


Face it Ken Holland is the best, and always has our team in the best position. There hasn't been a player outside of Suter that was a Stanley Cup caliber player.

EDIT: Gcom, I never said Howard was elite, we both agree there, I was just saying I feel he's better than "solid".

Edited by Carman, 31 July 2012 - 04:00 PM.


#219 F.Michael

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 04:07 PM

I'm not saying Howard isn't a good goaltender... But he's not elite status like Lundqvist, Quick or anyone else in that upper echelon of tendys. His career goals against is around 2.5 I believe. Not bad but during a regular NHL season that's about average. He's a good, solid goalie but he's being revered as one of the best in the league when really his numbers show he isn't deserving. If he has a season this year where he lowers his GAA and raises his S% a little bit, with 30+ wins.. Then we can start talking about putting him in the category of elite. As of right now, he's just above average for me. This year is going to be a tough test for him with a very suspect defense in front of him.

Personally I feel that Howard's getting better year after year, and as Crymson pointed out the 1st half of the season he was stellar...With that said - I do agree that he's not in the "elite" status, and chances are he may never be - especially with the current team in front of him.

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#220 centcougar07

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 04:36 PM

I wouldn't call Howard elite but like Osgood I think he is a great value goaltender. He provides solid goaltending at a decent contract so the Wings can spend money elsewhere.

Without Lidstrom and the blueline in its current state, it'll be interesting to see if that strategy is as effective.


My point exactly. I want to see how he does post Lidstrom and without a good defense in front of him. He's proven he can be steady when he's got the best defenseman in the game in front of him but lets be honest what goaltender wouldn't look better with Lidstrom on the team. Not to mention Stuart who is much better than Kronwall in my opinion. I don't expect Howard will be awful, but I'm guessing his numbers will drop.





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