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Holland losing his moxie? Is Detroit slipping as UFA destination?

ken holland

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#221 esteef

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 04:56 PM

Sammy is a 10-30 point upgrade to Holmstrom, Brunner/Nyquist are question marks, but Nyuist's .97 PPG vastly outperformed Hudler's .76 PPG in the AHL, so it's not a huge leap of faith to assume Nyquist can fill in. Tootoo is an upgrade to anyone on the 4th line for us last season. Cleary should improve his 12 goals are far below his average. Helm can stay healthy and play 70+ games and help you. Datsyuk doesn't miss 12+ games, and gets back to scoring 80+ points along with Zetterberg.

I don't see why you have to be negative about the forwards, it's only a game, why you have to be mad? Did any of those teams have the depth we did? Pittsburgh's defense is not much better than ours if at all, even without Lidstrom/Stuart. If anything we have the younger and more potential defense.
Kronwall, White, Quincey, Ericsson, Smith and Kindl is about the same if not better than Letang, Martin(absolute disaster), Orpik, Michalek, Niskanen(very iff), Engelland/Lovejoy


Face it Ken Holland is the best, and always has our team in the best position. There hasn't been a player outside of Suter that was a Stanley Cup caliber player.

EDIT: Gcom, I never said Howard was elite, we both agree there, I was just saying I feel he's better than "solid".


Oh yes, I forgot, Sammy's gonna save us. And you think Kenny has this team in the "best position" right now? Good grief.

esteef

Edited by esteef, 31 July 2012 - 04:57 PM.

"The Wings haven't won a Cup without Darren McCarty since 1955."

#222 Carman

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 05:11 PM

Oh yes, I forgot, Sammy's gonna save us. And you think Kenny has this team in the "best position" right now? Good grief.

esteef


Best position that was possible? Yes. I thoroughly believe he did all he could to sign the only players that would have helped us win a Stanley Cup. I like the position we are in, we don't have to face the possibility of losing Horton/Seguin/Marchand/Lucic/Rask like Boston, they are right up on the cap and will probably lose someone. That's going on with a lot of the teams New York(7 forwards need to be re-signed in 14).
There is only so much you can do, Holland can't just make a good player appear in free agency, or trades. If Ryan, or Yandle gets traded for scraps then blame Holland, but these players haven't even moved yet. Semin is not going to fix any long term issues, Doan is going to be overpaid a lot which would be fine if the contract wasn't going to be long(4 years).

The future looks fine for Detroit even if you don't want to believe it's true.

#223 The Axe

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 05:21 PM

Good points, Carman. Im just not sold on Howard being quality. I think he's a product of good team play. Thats why I think Holland needed to land the biggies this offseason.

#224 number9

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 06:22 PM

This garbage about Howard is ridiculous....Cougar makes one negative comment about him and now everyone is second guessing him. Come on now, you've all watched him play and all know how good he is. Easily one of the top 10 starters in the league....And his price is even better to look at than his numbers! Howard is not suddenly going to tank because Lidstrom is gone and our D is weaker than normal (right now), if anything Howard has been getting better with each season. He'll be great between the pipes this year, as always.

#225 beachwing

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 06:47 PM

a lot of you are forgetting that Howard was easily the best player on the ice last year in a good number of games for us....pre injury decimation included.

#226 esteef

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 07:05 PM

Best position that was possible? Yes. I thoroughly believe he did all he could to sign the only players that would have helped us win a Stanley Cup. I like the position we are in, we don't have to face the possibility of losing Horton/Seguin/Marchand/Lucic/Rask like Boston, they are right up on the cap and will probably lose someone. That's going on with a lot of the teams New York(7 forwards need to be re-signed in 14).
There is only so much you can do, Holland can't just make a good player appear in free agency, or trades. If Ryan, or Yandle gets traded for scraps then blame Holland, but these players haven't even moved yet. Semin is not going to fix any long term issues, Doan is going to be overpaid a lot which would be fine if the contract wasn't going to be long(4 years).

The future looks fine for Detroit even if you don't want to believe it's true.


If you're ONLY counting this offseason, then yes, he "tried". Way to go Kenny!

esteef
"The Wings haven't won a Cup without Darren McCarty since 1955."

#227 Carman

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 07:09 PM

If you're ONLY counting this offseason, then yes, he "tried". Way to go Kenny!

esteef


He did get Ian White who was the among if not the best defenseman out of his free agent class. Did you want Erhoff? That sure would help defensively especially with that delicious 10 year deal.

Who did you want? Can you name someone?

#228 esteef

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 07:18 PM

He did get Ian White who was the among if not the best defenseman out of his free agent class. Did you want Erhoff? That sure would help defensively especially with that delicious 10 year deal.

Who did you want? Can you name someone?


Here we go again! :lol: I want him to address the team's needs as they arise, not wait until all of them have to be addressed in one offseason. Do the best GMs in the league do that? Wait til the last minute to address a buttload of needs when some of them have been obvious for years? Come now. Your relentless defense of everything Holland does (or does not do) is pathetic. He's a good GM but he has not put this team in the best position possible as you say.

esteef
"The Wings haven't won a Cup without Darren McCarty since 1955."

#229 Carman

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 07:27 PM

Here we go again! :lol: I want him to address the team's needs as they arise, not wait until all of them have to be addressed in one offseason. Do the best GMs in the league do that? Wait til the last minute to address a buttload of needs when some of them have been obvious for years? Come now. Your relentless defense of everything Holland does (or does not do) is pathetic. He's a good GM but he has not put this team in the best position possible as you say.

esteef


It's so easy to be pessimistic, put yourself in his shoes. Search for what moves would have made sense, Instead of giving up, putting your head in the sand and saying he sucks seek out what he should have done. How was this situation avoidable? With little cap space last year would have sacrificed the last season of Lidstrom to try and get Luke Schenn? Do you think he would have been the answer for the long term? How about Brent Burns? Would the trades have put us in a better position. I'm not going to shoot any move down, I'm looking myself, I want to explore what his options were.

Are you not sold on 26 year old Quincey who has a .70 PPG season under his belt ever becoming good? Why does the situation have to be dire, why can't Datsyuk and Zetterberg have a 80+ point season? Why does Cleary have to underachieve again this year, why can't Howard take a step and become elite.

What reason is there that Smith can't become a very good rookie defenseman(He's proven just as much in AHL as any past rookie d man), Why was Samuelsson a bad signing? He's been productive and is proven over the course of his career to provide 40+ points.

Edited by Carman, 31 July 2012 - 07:28 PM.


#230 esteef

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 07:44 PM

It's so easy to be pessimistic, put yourself in his shoes. Search for what moves would have made sense, Instead of giving up, putting your head in the sand and saying he sucks seek out what he should have done. How was this situation avoidable? With little cap space last year would have sacrificed the last season of Lidstrom to try and get Luke Schenn? Do you think he would have been the answer for the long term? How about Brent Burns? Would the trades have put us in a better position. I'm not going to shoot any move down, I'm looking myself, I want to explore what his options were.

Are you not sold on 26 year old Quincey who has a .70 PPG season under his belt ever becoming good? Why does the situation have to be dire, why can't Datsyuk and Zetterberg have a 80+ point season? Why does Cleary have to underachieve again this year, why can't Howard take a step and become elite.

What reason is there that Smith can't become a very good rookie defenseman(He's proven just as much in AHL as any past rookie d man), Why was Samuelsson a bad signing? He's been productive and is proven over the course of his career to provide 40+ points.


So that's it? Wait til the last minute and when you get nothing you want, simply claim everyone will overachieve? Whatever dood. The situation ain't "dire" but it damn sure ain't the best possible position either.

esteef
"The Wings haven't won a Cup without Darren McCarty since 1955."

#231 kylee

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 08:09 PM

a lot of you are forgetting that Howard was easily the best player on the ice last year in a good number of games for us....pre injury decimation included.


yet he had a sub .90 save %. Our team collectively played great in the middle of the season and played sub par the last part of the season and the whole 5 playoff games.

#232 Z Winged Dangler

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 09:07 PM

My point exactly. I want to see how he does post Lidstrom and without a good defense in front of him. He's proven he can be steady when he's got the best defenseman in the game in front of him but lets be honest what goaltender wouldn't look better with Lidstrom on the team. Not to mention Stuart who is much better than Kronwall in my opinion. I don't expect Howard will be awful, but I'm guessing his numbers will drop.

Lidstrom plays 24-25 mins a night. The rest of the night there's other dmen in front of Howard not named Nick Lidstrom. Just sayin'

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#233 Buppy

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 11:50 PM

So that's it? Wait til the last minute and when you get nothing you want, simply claim everyone will overachieve? Whatever dood. The situation ain't "dire" but it damn sure ain't the best possible position either.

esteef

Maybe not "best possible" if you have the luxury of hindsight to base your decisions on, but we were in damn good position coming into this offseason. I doubt you or anyone else would be complaining about the "plan" had we landed Suter and Parise, or even just Suter.

Thing is, if you don't know beforeheand how everything will work out, you can't make a plan to account for every contingency. Any plan, or set of plans, can still fail. Especially when the rules are designed against you, and 29 other teams competing against you. Some things are just out of your control. Maybe if he'd known beforehand that none of Ehrhoff, Bieksa, Pitkanen, or Wisniewski would actually make it to free agency he would have been willing to trade for their rights. But on the other hand, maybe he'd have done that and not have been able to sign them anyway, wasting a pick. Or maybe had we signed one, we wouldn't have signed White or traded for Quincey, leaving us still in a very similar situation. Maybe we trade Flip, Smith, and a 1st for Burns...and don't sign White, and without Jurco and Ouellet in the system we don't give up a 1st for Quincey, then Burns doesn't re-sign and our defense now is Kronwall, Ericsson, and Kindl. Or maybe we do add one of them and everything works out great. Point is, having plans doesn't mean they will work.

Furthermore, you're ignoring what he has done, acting like his failure to make a move to your satisfaction is the same as not doing anything at all. He re-signed Kronwall and Ericsson. Added White and Quincey. Held on to Smith when he might easily have traded him. Avoided "just because" cap spending so we'd be in position to go after Suter, and would have been even without the big cap increase and/or if Nick had decided to play another season. Suter was a good plan. Unfortunately, it didn't work. Life goes on. Off-season isn't even over yet, nor do we know yet how the team will come together or how the younger guys will perform. For that matter, I still don't see what's so catastrophic about maybe having a down year or two. Philly went from 95-100+ point seasons to a league worst 56 (worst record since the lockout), right back to 95-100+ and playing in the finals a few years later.

#234 The Axe

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 12:24 AM

Lidstrom plays 24-25 mins a night. The rest of the night there's other dmen in front of Howard not named Nick Lidstrom. Just sayin'


Lidstrom takes care of the Getzlafs and Perrys. The other guys take care of the 3rd and 4th line scrubs. Howard will get lit up this year. And thats ok, as long as Smith, Kindl, and Ericsson learn how to come together and improve as a unit.

#235 number9

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 02:02 AM

Lidstrom takes care of the Getzlafs and Perrys. The other guys take care of the 3rd and 4th line scrubs. Howard will get lit up this year. And thats ok, as long as Smith, Kindl, and Ericsson learn how to come together and improve as a unit.


No, I've played and watched hockey all my life and yes matchups matter, but Lidstrom was never responsible for taking one or two players out of the game. It doesn't work like how your suggesting.

#236 Crymson

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 03:01 AM

yet he had a sub .90 save %. Our team collectively played great in the middle of the season and played sub par the last part of the season and the whole 5 playoff games.


We've been over how little substance his save percentage in that series has as an indicator of how well he played. And the fellow was likely mostly referring to the first half of the season, in which Howard kept the team out of the basement.

#237 Hatethedrake!

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 09:40 AM

It could be worse. We could be the Minnesota Wild.
Jordan Tootoo will wreck shop.

We need someone like Parise that can penetrate the box.-blueadams

#238 hillbillywingsfan

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 09:47 AM

Oh yes, I forgot, Sammy's gonna save us. And you think Kenny has this team in the "best position" right now? Good grief.

esteef

If you don't think Sammy if going to help YOU sir are the crazy one. The opposing team's goalie can only take so many shots to the chest it has to start hurting at some point. He will wear a hole in the goalies chest pads then what?...we win.=) hehe
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#239 pondrocket

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 10:25 AM

Maybe not "best possible" if you have the luxury of hindsight to base your decisions on, but we were in damn good position coming into this offseason. I doubt you or anyone else would be complaining about the "plan" had we landed Suter and Parise, or even just Suter.

Thing is, if you don't know beforeheand how everything will work out, you can't make a plan to account for every contingency. Any plan, or set of plans, can still fail. Especially when the rules are designed against you, and 29 other teams competing against you. Some things are just out of your control. Maybe if he'd known beforehand that none of Ehrhoff, Bieksa, Pitkanen, or Wisniewski would actually make it to free agency he would have been willing to trade for their rights. But on the other hand, maybe he'd have done that and not have been able to sign them anyway, wasting a pick. Or maybe had we signed one, we wouldn't have signed White or traded for Quincey, leaving us still in a very similar situation. Maybe we trade Flip, Smith, and a 1st for Burns...and don't sign White, and without Jurco and Ouellet in the system we don't give up a 1st for Quincey, then Burns doesn't re-sign and our defense now is Kronwall, Ericsson, and Kindl. Or maybe we do add one of them and everything works out great. Point is, having plans doesn't mean they will work.

Furthermore, you're ignoring what he has done, acting like his failure to make a move to your satisfaction is the same as not doing anything at all. He re-signed Kronwall and Ericsson. Added White and Quincey. Held on to Smith when he might easily have traded him. Avoided "just because" cap spending so we'd be in position to go after Suter, and would have been even without the big cap increase and/or if Nick had decided to play another season. Suter was a good plan. Unfortunately, it didn't work. Life goes on. Off-season isn't even over yet, nor do we know yet how the team will come together or how the younger guys will perform. For that matter, I still don't see what's so catastrophic about maybe having a down year or two. Philly went from 95-100+ point seasons to a league worst 56 (worst record since the lockout), right back to 95-100+ and playing in the finals a few years later.


I thinkk less people would be complaining if Holland had attempted to address team needs for the last three years. He thought Nick was coming back & was caught with his pants down. Who's head is in the sand? Howard will be lit up this year. We are not uniquely strong on D & we don't have the O to hang onto the puck like we used to. We don't suck. We are on par with Calgary. Are they good?

#240 Hatethedrake!

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 10:33 AM

The Logo Hunter Lives!
Jordan Tootoo will wreck shop.

We need someone like Parise that can penetrate the box.-blueadams





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