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Holland losing his moxie? Is Detroit slipping as UFA destination?

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#301 number9

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Posted 12 August 2012 - 05:43 PM

And when it comes down to it.....anyone who watches hockey knows how good Niklas Kronwall is. Forget stats, as good as they are you don't even need them to show that Kronwall is a #1 guy lol. Just watch a wings game. He's just as good, if not better, than most of the other #1 guys out there in the league.

Again, if the D falters it will be due to lack of depth....not lack of Kronwall

We should probably get back on topic though....Are we still a top UFA destination? Well in the players poll just this last season the players voted and said the team that they'd most like to play for, in the entire league, is the Detroit Red Wings. We weren't just in the top 5 or top 10, we were the number freaking 1. Question answered?

#302 vladdy16

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 07:23 AM

And let's reel it back in to discuss what the actual topic is, please.
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#303 Z Winged Dangler

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 07:57 AM

And let's reel it back in to discuss what the actual topic is, please.

My last 2 posts were on topic and somehow they disappeared while cougar's posts are on here that are much less constructive and just bash the Wings completely and all our guys one at a time.

Here's something on topic....Detroit is the best place in the NHL to play cause you have a chance to WIN every year, even the last 3 which ended in busts. It's not Kenny's fault that other GM's in the NHL are so jealous of the success the Wings have had for over 2 decades and none of them want to be known as the guy that added to it and kept the Wings at the top. That is the reason that Kenny couldn't plan for Nicks retirement properly, cause no one would deal him anything. Hence the 3 way trades involving Tampa cause Stevie Y is there. Maybe guys should cut Kenny some slack cause of those reasons. At least we got some good prospects and Brunner wanted to come over to the NHL specifically to the Wings. Let's give these guys a shot before we hang Kenny for his actions over the past 3 years. Esteef....don't bash me on this one bud :nono: :lol:

This offseason will determine whether Ken Holland should still be employed with the Wings organization.

 

Please put Smith on the Power Play!


#304 The Axe

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 07:59 AM

Holland HAS lost his moxie. Most fans are disappointed in our summer.

#305 Doc Holliday

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 10:27 AM

Kronwall will be hard pressed this year


Hard pressed to do what?

You just seem to be making a bunch of random statements in this thread that are slightly related to the topic.

Holland is still working to help lower the impact of not getting the free agents he was looking for this offseason. While I am not a fan of Bouwmeester, I think it wouldn't hurt to help our defensive talent and ship off a bit of offensive talent in the process. If Holland is able to get him for decent value, I think that will be a good sign.

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#306 The Axe

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 10:31 AM

Hard pressed to do what?

You just seem to be making a bunch of random statements in this thread that are slightly related to the topic.

Holland is still working to help lower the impact of not getting the free agents he was looking for this offseason. While I am not a fan of Bouwmeester, I think it wouldn't hurt to help our defensive talent and ship off a bit of offensive talent in the process. If Holland is able to get him for decent value, I think that will be a good sign.


Just following the convo. After 14 pages, going off topic a bit should be expected. I mean, we all agreed that Holland missed out already.

#307 Z Winged Dangler

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 12:24 PM

Just following the convo. After 14 pages, going off topic a bit should be expected. I mean, we all agreed that Holland missed out already.

Like Number9 stated berore, you're making another general statement on behalf of everyone on LGW. I for one am not unhappy with this offseason.
1. Let Hudler and his $4mil walk
2. Got Brunner
3. Nyquist and Smith should get the playing time they should have had last year
4. Sammy will adequately replace Hudler with comparable points and way better 2-way hockey
5. Gustavsson is a good back up
6. This years draft was awesome...not 1 guy under 6 feet
7. Signed Frk and Jurco to entry-level contracts. They're officially in the system.

If any true Wings fan looks at this and thinks that Kenny did jack this summer with no willing trade partners, then they need to take a step back. There's only so much a GM can do when the only guy willing to trade with the Wings is the former captain of the team. Until he overpays in a trade for JBo (Flip,Nyquist or Smith involved) or signs a terrible contract like 4 years, 30 mil for Doan then I for one will give him credit for at least trying.

This offseason will determine whether Ken Holland should still be employed with the Wings organization.

 

Please put Smith on the Power Play!


#308 The Axe

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 12:43 PM

Like Number9 stated berore, you're making another general statement on behalf of everyone on LGW. I for one am not unhappy with this offseason.
1. Let Hudler and his $4mil walk
2. Got Brunner
3. Nyquist and Smith should get the playing time they should have had last year
4. Sammy will adequately replace Hudler with comparable points and way better 2-way hockey
5. Gustavsson is a good back up
6. This years draft was awesome...not 1 guy under 6 feet
7. Signed Frk and Jurco to entry-level contracts. They're officially in the system.

If any true Wings fan looks at this and thinks that Kenny did jack this summer with no willing trade partners, then they need to take a step back. There's only so much a GM can do when the only guy willing to trade with the Wings is the former captain of the team. Until he overpays in a trade for JBo (Flip,Nyquist or Smith involved) or signs a terrible contract like 4 years, 30 mil for Doan then I for one will give him credit for at least trying.


We missed out on Parise and Suter. That could have really given us a booster shot we desperately need with Lidstrom departing. These other moves are all non factors.

#309 number9

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 01:08 PM

We missed out on Parise and Suter. That could have really given us a booster shot we desperately need with Lidstrom departing. These other moves are all non factors.


...........what?

Z Wing I'll let you argue this one lolllll

#310 Z Winged Dangler

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 01:13 PM

We missed out on Parise and Suter. That could have really given us a booster shot we desperately need with Lidstrom departing. These other moves are all non factors.

15 million per year for these 2 until they're in rocking chairs on a front porch? The contracts they were given are handcuffs to Minnesota, who in all likelyhood with their great depth will miss the playoffs yet again or creep into 8th. And that's far from "Holland losing his moxie", that's Suter's wife wearing the pants and dragging Parise along in the side car cause they want to play together for the rest of their natural lives.

And the other moves are factors. They added grit and depth to the bottom 6 and opened up a chance for Brunner and Nyquist to play in the top 6 and Smith to play top 4 mins. Sammy for the 3rd line and Tootoo to play on the 4th with Abby. There will be a lot more line chemistry this year than last. Remember Nyquist getting stuck on the 4th line with Emmerton and Homer, cause I do.

...........what?

Z Wing I'll let you argue this one lolllll

Already ranting as you were posting this one. :lol:

This offseason will determine whether Ken Holland should still be employed with the Wings organization.

 

Please put Smith on the Power Play!


#311 The Axe

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 04:29 PM

15 million per year for these 2 until they're in rocking chairs on a front porch? The contracts they were given are handcuffs to Minnesota, who in all likelyhood with their great depth will miss the playoffs yet again or creep into 8th. And that's far from "Holland losing his moxie", that's Suter's wife wearing the pants and dragging Parise along in the side car cause they want to play together for the rest of their natural lives.

And the other moves are factors. They added grit and depth to the bottom 6 and opened up a chance for Brunner and Nyquist to play in the top 6 and Smith to play top 4 mins. Sammy for the 3rd line and Tootoo to play on the 4th with Abby. There will be a lot more line chemistry this year than last. Remember Nyquist getting stuck on the 4th line with Emmerton and Homer, cause I do.


Already ranting as you were posting this one. :lol:


Not one opponent in the NHL is concerned about any of these things. There isnt a team in the league that has taken as big a loss and has had as little addition as the Red Wings. Minus Lidstrom, Plus Scrub bottom 6 castaways = no bueno.

#312 gcom007

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 05:54 PM

And when it comes down to it.....anyone who watches hockey knows how good Niklas Kronwall is. Forget stats, as good as they are you don't even need them to show that Kronwall is a #1 guy lol. Just watch a wings game. He's just as good, if not better, than most of the other #1 guys out there in the league.

Again, if the D falters it will be due to lack of depth....not lack of Kronwall

We should probably get back on topic though....Are we still a top UFA destination? Well in the players poll just this last season the players voted and said the team that they'd most like to play for, in the entire league, is the Detroit Red Wings. We weren't just in the top 5 or top 10, we were the number freaking 1. Question answered?


I agree about Kronwall; he's a great defensemen that has been integral to our success over the years. However, he's also proven to be a bit fragile in the past. And we didn't just lose Lidstrom. In the last year and change, we also lost Rafalski and Stuart. Rafalski was a star and a big name guy long before coming to Detroit and could've been most teams top defenseman and Stuart could easily be many teams #2; at worst, Stuart's among the best 2nd pairing defensemen out there.

So what still bothers me isn't so much that we haven't replaced Lidstrom, it's that we haven't replaced 3 of our top 4 defensemen in any way shape or form in the last year. It'd be one thing if we had been able to zero in on even one guy that could sit in the middle of the talent pool of the pack we lost; I'm not even talking a Suter level guy here. The problem to me is that we haven't even come close to filling any of our defensive holes, again, left by the departure of 3 of our top 4 guys, including one who's among the best players to ever live, who at retirement was still a bona fide superstar capable of being the best player on the ice still nearly every night.

Everyone keeps focusing on Lidstrom because it is a huge a dramatic change we're being forced to accept, but what worries me far more is that we haven't even touched on the loss of Rafalski and Stuart. Now, I certainly didn't expect Holland to just pull another Rafalski out of his hat the day after he retired, but again, the writing has been on the wall for awhile, and it's been screaming at everyone since Rafalski retired. We knew Stuart almost certainly wouldn't be back for at least a year now if not more if you count most people's gut feeling. We just watched Rafalski retire. And Lidstrom was firmly in his 40's. Maybe we didn't know for sure if Lidstrom would be back, but the departure of both Rafalski and Stuart alone would warrant some meaningful replacement, even if Lidstrom was returning, and we haven't even gotten that.

And I know people hate it and love to dismiss it, but I just can't help but think that Holland could have done something prior to this summer to better prepare for this. Again, at least something to address the collective loss of Stuart and Rafalski. I'm not saying the guy should be tarred and feathered or that he's a terrible GM overall at all, but when a team like Detroit that prides itself on being competitive every year watches 3 of their 4 top defensemen leave and nothing is done to address it, you've got to admit at the very least that this is hardly Holland's finest hour.

And before we assume once again that we're just being ungrateful fans, don't forget the Babcock was "pissed" (direct quote: "I'm pissed off." -Mike Babcock, http://www.thehockey...tanley-Cup.html) last summer when Holland didn't make moves that could have been made, when Babcock said all along that they needed to add a guy to strengthen their defense. We still had Lidstrom and Stuart at that point. How do you think he feels about everything now? You think he's happy? Sure, you can't get upset about Suter given the circumstances, but Babcock obviously has felt for awhile that changes need to be made as well, and nothing happened. Again, how do you think he feels now? And when do we stop defending Ken Holland by suggesting that it's of benefit to us that he's been conservative?

And why is it so hard for people to admit that even the best can struggle, and even the best can drop the ball, and even the best need to change?

There's a tremendous difference between "I think you suck" and "I think you can do better."

You know what George Martin, primary record producer of The Beatles, said even to the obscenely successful band, The Beatles???

"I think you can do better."

Hey, Ken Holland, I think you can do better.
-Elliot...does not panic.

#313 gcom007

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 06:00 PM

I will say in defense of the Holland defenders that I have no idea why people keep bringing up Parise and Suter in this argument. I mean, sure, it's loosely relevant, but it's scratching the surface of a broader issue and ultimately, their decision to sign elsewhere was among the least of things you can blame Ken Holland for given the circumstances. It's a stupid argument and it's utterly non-sensical to continue to suggest that we didn't offer enough money or didn't push hard enough. Suter wanted to head home to Minnesota and avoid media attention (so we pretty much lost this one when we decided to start calling Detroit "Hockeytown") and Parise only left the Devils to play with his friend in his home state. If Suter signed in Detroit or anywhere else, he was staying with the Devils. How this incredibly obvious and simple conclusion isn't enough for some people is truly mind-blowing to me.
-Elliot...does not panic.

#314 number9

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 07:33 PM

I agree about Kronwall; he's a great defensemen that has been integral to our success over the years. However, he's also proven to be a bit fragile in the past. And we didn't just lose Lidstrom. In the last year and change, we also lost Rafalski and Stuart. Rafalski was a star and a big name guy long before coming to Detroit and could've been most teams top defenseman and Stuart could easily be many teams #2; at worst, Stuart's among the best 2nd pairing defensemen out there.

So what still bothers me isn't so much that we haven't replaced Lidstrom, it's that we haven't replaced 3 of our top 4 defensemen in any way shape or form in the last year. It'd be one thing if we had been able to zero in on even one guy that could sit in the middle of the talent pool of the pack we lost; I'm not even talking a Suter level guy here. The problem to me is that we haven't even come close to filling any of our defensive holes, again, left by the departure of 3 of our top 4 guys, including one who's among the best players to ever live, who at retirement was still a bona fide superstar capable of being the best player on the ice still nearly every night.

Everyone keeps focusing on Lidstrom because it is a huge a dramatic change we're being forced to accept, but what worries me far more is that we haven't even touched on the loss of Rafalski and Stuart. Now, I certainly didn't expect Holland to just pull another Rafalski out of his hat the day after he retired, but again, the writing has been on the wall for awhile, and it's been screaming at everyone since Rafalski retired. We knew Stuart almost certainly wouldn't be back for at least a year now if not more if you count most people's gut feeling. We just watched Rafalski retire. And Lidstrom was firmly in his 40's. Maybe we didn't know for sure if Lidstrom would be back, but the departure of both Rafalski and Stuart alone would warrant some meaningful replacement, even if Lidstrom was returning, and we haven't even gotten that.

And I know people hate it and love to dismiss it, but I just can't help but think that Holland could have done something prior to this summer to better prepare for this. Again, at least something to address the collective loss of Stuart and Rafalski. I'm not saying the guy should be tarred and feathered or that he's a terrible GM overall at all, but when a team like Detroit that prides itself on being competitive every year watches 3 of their 4 top defensemen leave and nothing is done to address it, you've got to admit at the very least that this is hardly Holland's finest hour.

And before we assume once again that we're just being ungrateful fans, don't forget the Babcock was "pissed" (direct quote: "I'm pissed off." -Mike Babcock, http://www.thehockey...tanley-Cup.html) last summer when Holland didn't make moves that could have been made, when Babcock said all along that they needed to add a guy to strengthen their defense. We still had Lidstrom and Stuart at that point. How do you think he feels about everything now? You think he's happy? Sure, you can't get upset about Suter given the circumstances, but Babcock obviously has felt for awhile that changes need to be made as well, and nothing happened. Again, how do you think he feels now? And when do we stop defending Ken Holland by suggesting that it's of benefit to us that he's been conservative?

And why is it so hard for people to admit that even the best can struggle, and even the best can drop the ball, and even the best need to change?

There's a tremendous difference between "I think you suck" and "I think you can do better."

You know what George Martin, primary record producer of The Beatles, said even to the obscenely successful band, The Beatles???

"I think you can do better."

Hey, Ken Holland, I think you can do better.


Rafalski left, brought in White
Stuart left, brought in Quincey
Lidstrom left, brought in

He didn't do nothing about Raffi and Stewies departure. He replaced a DFD and an OFD with two gritty TWDs on good contracts. Could he have done better? Yeah definitely....but I'm a Holland supporter because I believe in his philosophy....that you build from within. Home grown talent is trained within your system, has chemistry on the ice and in the lockeroom with your players, and they tend to have the best bang for your buck in contracts. This philosophy results in very little trading (cant trade away your home grown talent in a home grown system), and it's just good business, no matter which philosophy you have, not to overpay on the FA market.

So in light of that conservative philosophy lets look at what Holland did....

Rafalski retires out of nowhere and surprises everyone....Holland doesn't have an NHL ready D-man in the prospect pool to make up for the freak retirement so he signs a RH D-man to a very good contract!

More bad luck for Holland, Stuart, another guy he planned on having for a few more years, confirms he won't be resigning.....Even though he has Smith ready to come in and fill Stuarts spot he knows theres a good chance that Lids could retire too so he orchestrates an evil genius trade plot with Yzerman and gets Q at the deadline (home grown talent baby)

More bad news....Lids does indeed retire. Well Smith is ready, so at the least we know we have him ready to come up and fill shoes. But with all this bad luck with the defense we have had the past few seasons this would probably be a good time to break philosophy and take some drastic action.....but alas! We need a new CBA and super conservative Holland is not going to make any major moves until that is resolved.

I believe he did a decent job considering all the curve balls he had to deal with. I do agree with you that he COULD have done better, but that would have meant breaking philosophy. He dealt with it the way his business model demands he does....fill the holes and stop the bleeding with players on good contracts, even if that means not landing a big fish and being a bit weaker than normal for a few years....then sit back and wait for our prospects to develop and bring us back to glory in a few years

We are one of very few teams (arguably the only team) that can operate with this philosophy because our drafting and scouting is so good. It is our advantage and Holland, being the smart business man that he is, plays to his advantages.

What sucks about it is that it is not a very exciting philosophy....We sit here pulling our hair out going "OMG MAKE A TRADE! DO SOMETHING! ANYTHING!" but the business model says he shouldn't (though I believe he will do something more once the CBA is resolved)

Whats awesome about the philosophy it is it works! Other teams have to build, boom, and rebuild over and over again and only end up wining a cup every 40 years. We do the same thing on a smaller scale and end up winning a cup every 10 -15 years! We win a cup....go through some gap years while we wait for more prospects....and then win another cup! And even in gap years (like this one) our team is still competitive enough to win a cup. It truly astonishes me how good our front office is.

Every bone in my body wishes we would have landed some bigger names this year and filled the holes better....but deep down I know what Holland is doing. The same thing he always does... winning by playing the long term game. Its stressful for fans but it puts banners in the rafters. We just got be REALLY patient lol

And Babcock being mad means diddly.....theres a reason hes a coach and not a GM....and of course hes mad, he wishes he would fill the holes better right now too....makes his job harder working with gap players. He wishes he had a guy like Holmgren to bring in big names for him to play with every month lol

#315 The Axe

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 07:53 PM

What part of first round ass kicking did you miss last year, number9? You act like we've taken the last 6 stanley cups. We have been getting our asses handed 2 us lately. Wake up, already.

#316 Marty Barry

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 07:54 PM

I think that maybe the impending cba has something to do with this offseason. A possible lower cap and maybe a last chance for players to receive these bloated, front loaded contracts and detroits unwillingness to offer them may be a factor. I still have faith in Kenny and co. and think we are better for not signing Parise and Suter. It just kills flexibility in the future.

#317 Z Winged Dangler

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 07:58 PM

What part of first round ass kicking did you miss last year, number9? You act like we've taken the last 6 stanley cups. We have been getting our asses handed 2 us lately. Wake up, already.

The team lost Lids and Stuart, but we'll be watching a team that's way younger than usual and will have way more jump cause of finally getting the youth injection at least most of us have been waiting for. I guess i'll stop trying to convince you things will be ok next year cause it's August and you're already counting the Wings out. Later bud.

This offseason will determine whether Ken Holland should still be employed with the Wings organization.

 

Please put Smith on the Power Play!


#318 The Axe

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 08:10 PM

The team lost Lids and Stuart, but we'll be watching a team that's way younger than usual and will have way more jump cause of finally getting the youth injection at least most of us have been waiting for. I guess i'll stop trying to convince you things will be ok next year cause it's August and you're already counting the Wings out. Later bud.


I like the youth injection too. But did u not notice what happened to us last year after lidstrom went down? Bad news, my friend.

#319 Z Winged Dangler

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 08:30 PM

I like the youth injection too. But did u not notice what happened to us last year after lidstrom went down? Bad news, my friend.

we saw Nyquist get a handful of games in the top 6 and then get relegated to the 4th line with Homer and Emmerton so Mule could float around. Also, Cleary was providing jack skating around on 1 leg. As good as Stuart's been, he wasn't all there last year and was terrible in the playoffs. Homer needs to just retire already and not take up a roster spot. Conklin provided no support as a back up and then Joey Mac got injured. Smith should have been in the lineup. And lastly off the top of my head, we had 1 right handed player. ONE! now we have on top of White 5. Brunner, Sammy, Tootoo, possibly Eaves back. That completely changes the way the Wings can attack the opposition being able to more efficiently use both sides of the ice and one-time from both sides and actually get the other teams goalie moving instead of tossing s*** at the net from the outside. Just wait dude. adding a mix of righty's to the Wings is gonna be just what the doctor ordered.

This offseason will determine whether Ken Holland should still be employed with the Wings organization.

 

Please put Smith on the Power Play!


#320 The Axe

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 08:33 PM

we saw Nyquist get a handful of games in the top 6 and then get relegated to the 4th line with Homer and Emmerton so Mule could float around. Also, Cleary was providing jack skating around on 1 leg. As good as Stuart's been, he wasn't all there last year and was terrible in the playoffs. Homer needs to just retire already and not take up a roster spot. Conklin provided no support as a back up and then Joey Mac got injured. Smith should have been in the lineup. And lastly off the top of my head, we had 1 right handed player. ONE! now we have on top of White 5. Brunner, Sammy, Tootoo, possibly Eaves back. That completely changes the way the Wings can attack the opposition being able to more efficiently use both sides of the ice and one-time from both sides and actually get the other teams goalie moving instead of tossing s*** at the net from the outside. Just wait dude. adding a mix of righty's to the Wings is gonna be just what the doctor ordered.


Ok. I will trust ya.





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