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Holland losing his moxie? Is Detroit slipping as UFA destination?

ken holland

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#321 Z Winged Dangler

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 09:15 PM

Ok. I will trust ya.

Had to :lol:

meh...don't think the image is showing up. i'll try again tomorrow if it doesnt' work.

couldn't get the pic to go on here properly so i made it my new avatar pic.

Duh...Winning! Cartoon Charlie Sheen believes in the Wings.

Edited by Z Winged Dangler, 15 August 2012 - 08:01 AM.

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"I play hockey, but I am not very good.  Can someone please tell me what it would take to sign with the Wings ? I can use a million or two."  ~ arag


#322 Dabura

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 09:31 PM

The "Youth Movement" is lol on many levels. For starters: there is no youth movement, just a couple younger guys in the top-6 (Brunner, Nyquist) and Smith on the third-pairing. I guess you could say that's a youth movement by our standards. And hey, who knows, maybe Tatar, Sheahan et al. will see NHL ice. But we added Sammy and Tootoo, and Holland was hard for Doan, etc. That, to me, doesn't scream "Youth Movement!" Then there's Kenny's comments about the importance of building from within. Drafting well, cultivating your young talent - that's how we've got to do it these days. To which I say: 1) that's always been the case (not with us, but generally for everyone else), and 2) you're saying this while nearly matching Minnesota's bid for Suter and chasing after Nash and Doan and a thousand other free-agents and giving up a first-round pick for Quincey? (Not that I object to his having pursued free agents. And, turns out we need Quincey now.) I could go on.

Don't Toews me, bro!


#323 The Axe

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 09:35 PM

The "Youth Movement" is lol on many levels. For starters: there is no youth movement, just a couple younger guys in the top-6 (Brunner, Nyquist) and Smith on the third-pairing. I guess you could say that's a youth movement by our standards. And hey, who knows, maybe Tatar, Sheahan et al. will see NHL ice. But we added Sammy and Tootoo, and Holland was hard for Doan, etc. That, to me, doesn't scream "Youth Movement!" Then there's Kenny's comments about the importance of building from within. Drafting well, cultivating your young talent - that's how we've got to do it these days. To which I say: 1) that's always been the case (not with us, but generally for everyone else), and 2) you're saying this while nearly matching Minnesota's bid for Suter and chasing after Nash and Doan and a thousand other free-agents and giving up a first-round pick for Quincey? (Not that I object to his having pursued free agents. And, turns out we need Quincey now.) I could go on.


While I agree, sooner or later you just have to get fired up for Red Wings hockey no matter what form it comes in. I said my peace, and now im gonna cheer for what we got.

#324 Z Winged Dangler

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 09:41 PM

The "Youth Movement" is lol on many levels. For starters: there is no youth movement, just a couple younger guys in the top-6 (Brunner, Nyquist) and Smith on the third-pairing. I guess you could say that's a youth movement by our standards. And hey, who knows, maybe Tatar, Sheahan et al. will see NHL ice. But we added Sammy and Tootoo, and Holland was hard for Doan, etc. That, to me, doesn't scream "Youth Movement!" Then there's Kenny's comments about the importance of building from within. Drafting well, cultivating your young talent - that's how we've got to do it these days. To which I say: 1) that's always been the case (not with us, but generally for everyone else), and 2) you're saying this while nearly matching Minnesota's bid for Suter and chasing after Nash and Doan and a thousand other free-agents and giving up a first-round pick for Quincey? (Not that I object to his having pursued free agents. And, turns out we need Quincey now.) I could go on.

You're just bummed cause we didn't get Dan Girardi. :lol:

Free darkmanx!

 

"I play hockey, but I am not very good.  Can someone please tell me what it would take to sign with the Wings ? I can use a million or two."  ~ arag


#325 Dabura

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 09:41 PM

And lastly off the top of my head, we had 1 right handed player. ONE! now we have on top of White 5. Brunner, Sammy, Tootoo, possibly Eaves back. That completely changes the way the Wings can attack the opposition being able to more efficiently use both sides of the ice and one-time from both sides and actually get the other teams goalie moving instead of tossing s*** at the net from the outside. Just wait dude. adding a mix of righty's to the Wings is gonna be just what the doctor ordered.


Fair point, but I don't really see it drastically changing the complexion of our forecheck and cycle in the postseason. Some new shot options, new angles - but the majority of the shots would probably still be taken from far out. Left-shot, right-shot - doesn't really matter if the whole reason you're being boxed out in the first place is that you're physically outclassed and lacking in drive and hunger and dirty, hard-nosed demolition men.

Edited by Dabura, 15 August 2012 - 01:46 PM.

Don't Toews me, bro!


#326 The Axe

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 09:43 PM

Fair point, but I don't really see it drastically changing the complexion of our forechecker and cycle in the postseason. Some new shot options, new angles - but the majority of the shots would probably still be taken from far out. Left-shot, right-shot - doesn't really matter if the whole reason you're being boxed out in the first place is that you're physically outclassed and lacking in drive and hunger and dirty, hard-nosed demolition men.


Yup. Sammy and Bertuzzi cruising along the boards and firing 50 footers into Giguere's stomach. How exciting.

#327 Buppy

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 10:05 PM

stuff

I think you're trying to divine a philosophy to fit what happened, as if it's all just part of the master plan.

I'd say the reality is far, far simpler. You can't always get what you want. And despite Jagger's claims to the contrary, trying won't necessarily get you what you need either. Given a mulligan for the last couple years, Kenny would likely take a different approach.

The better defense, in my opinion, is, "So what?". He made some decisions, passed on some options hoping for better, but it didn't work out. So what? There's nothing particularly bad about maybe not being one of the top contenders for a few years. Much of his job relies on making educated guesses about the future. Sometimes, the guesses will be wrong, or someone else will guess right quicker. So what? It isn't Holland's philosophy that put us in the spot we are now. It's that the rest of the league isn't required to follow it.

Some of his critics want to say they still support him: 'not saying he sucks, just that he could do better'... And they've been saying it at every opportunity for the past month and a half. I think if that's really all they wanted to say, they'd be satisfied at having said it innumerable times already, but whatever. There may be a big difference between "sucks" and "could have done better", but there's also a big difference between "could have" and "should have".

#328 number9

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 11:18 PM

I think you're trying to divine a philosophy to fit what happened, as if it's all just part of the master plan.

I'd say the reality is far, far simpler. You can't always get what you want. And despite Jagger's claims to the contrary, trying won't necessarily get you what you need either. Given a mulligan for the last couple years, Kenny would likely take a different approach.

The better defense, in my opinion, is, "So what?". He made some decisions, passed on some options hoping for better, but it didn't work out. So what? There's nothing particularly bad about maybe not being one of the top contenders for a few years. Much of his job relies on making educated guesses about the future. Sometimes, the guesses will be wrong, or someone else will guess right quicker. So what? It isn't Holland's philosophy that put us in the spot we are now. It's that the rest of the league isn't required to follow it.

Some of his critics want to say they still support him: 'not saying he sucks, just that he could do better'... And they've been saying it at every opportunity for the past month and a half. I think if that's really all they wanted to say, they'd be satisfied at having said it innumerable times already, but whatever. There may be a big difference between "sucks" and "could have done better", but there's also a big difference between "could have" and "should have".


Sure but you can't deny Holland operates in a different way then most other GM's. Holland is an extreme on the spectrum. Plays extremely close to the vest, conservative, long-term game. On the other end of the spectrum you have Holmgren. Plays balls to the wall, high-risk high-reward, blow up the team to get that cup now game. Everyone else falls somewhere in between.

Sure Holland chased Nash, and Suter, and blah blah blah.....price wasnt right though and so he didnt pull triggers on things. Thats him. He's not the kind of guy who gives up Zetterberg for *insert Dman here*.....Holmgren is that guy. Mike Richards and Jeff Carter is all I gotta say.

So yes this off season is due to his decisions....bad or good....but those decisions were made by him and his philosophy of hockey business

#329 gcom007

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Posted 15 August 2012 - 01:30 AM

The "Youth Movement" is lol on many levels. For starters: there is no youth movement, just a couple younger guys in the top-6 (Brunner, Nyquist) and Smith on the third-pairing. I guess you could say that's a youth movement by our standards. And hey, who knows, maybe Tatar, Sheahan et al. will see NHL ice. But we added Sammy and Tootoo, and Holland was hard for Doan, etc. That, to me, doesn't scream "Youth Movement!" Then there's Kenny's comments about the importance of building from within. Drafting well, cultivating your young talent - that's how we've got to do it these days. To which I say: 1) that's always been the case (not with us, but generally for everyone else), and 2) you're saying this while nearly matching Minnesota's bid for Suter and chasing after Nash and Doan and a thousand other free-agents and giving up a first-round pick for Quincey? (Not that I object to his having pursued free agents. And, turns out we need Quincey now.) I could go on.

Sure but you can't deny Holland operates in a different way then most other GM's. Holland is an extreme on the spectrum. Plays extremely close to the vest, conservative, long-term game. On the other end of the spectrum you have Holmgren. Plays balls to the wall, high-risk high-reward, blow up the team to get that cup now game. Everyone else falls somewhere in between.

Sure Holland chased Nash, and Suter, and blah blah blah.....price wasnt right though and so he didnt pull triggers on things. Thats him. He's not the kind of guy who gives up Zetterberg for *insert Dman here*.....Holmgren is that guy. Mike Richards and Jeff Carter is all I gotta say.

So yes this off season is due to his decisions....bad or good....but those decisions were made by him and his philosophy of hockey business


Others have said much of what I am thinking about "building from within" sounding like a bit of a crock in light of his pursuit of countless big names, so I won't go over it again. But, "the price wasn't right"? Where do you get that? He's thrown everything and the kitchen sink at many guys and they signed elsewhere or were traded elsewhere. "The price wasn't right" makes it sound like Holland backed out of these deals when that simply isn't the case at all. He's even said as much himself. The "build from within" amounts to nothing but damage control in light of Ken Holland's actions this summer. And what is it they say about actions and words?

(P.S. I like White and Quincey, a lot in fact, but to bill them as replacements for the holes left by Raffie and Stuart is a lot to put on them and quite a stretch if you ask me. Again, I like the guys and the signings a lot, but given the holes that have been left, that that's the best that can seemingly be done is worrisome.)

Edited by gcom007, 15 August 2012 - 01:33 AM.

-Elliot...does not panic.

#330 number9

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Posted 15 August 2012 - 02:18 AM

Others have said much of what I am thinking about "building from within" sounding like a bit of a crock in light of his pursuit of countless big names, so I won't go over it again. But, "the price wasn't right"? Where do you get that? He's thrown everything and the kitchen sink at many guys and they signed elsewhere or were traded elsewhere. "The price wasn't right" makes it sound like Holland backed out of these deals when that simply isn't the case at all. He's even said as much himself. The "build from within" amounts to nothing but damage control in light of Ken Holland's actions this summer. And what is it they say about actions and words?

(P.S. I like White and Quincey, a lot in fact, but to bill them as replacements for the holes left by Raffie and Stuart is a lot to put on them and quite a stretch if you ask me. Again, I like the guys and the signings a lot, but given the holes that have been left, that that's the best that can seemingly be done is worrisome.)


Again, to me White and Q were just to stop the bleeding

It's Hollands job to pursue big names and be active. He wouldn't be doing his job if he didn't at least try. Otherwise he'd be playing golf when he should be working as many joke about lol. This isn't Florida....were a big name team with big time assets.....we'll always be involved in trade discussions and signing discussions as long as we remain that way, even with conservative Holland. Yet, IMO the reason these trades and signings are not getting done (except for the obvious few that wernt hollands fault) is because of the way Holland runs the organization...he doesnt pull triggers unless the price is exactly right or he absolutely needs too....Detroit is still a highly desirable FA destination and Holland has not fallen off his rocker....he just does not go balls to the wall....and he has his reasons for it. If we didn't draft so well he would have to go balls to the wall or we would have been in the gutter years ago!

I think triggers will get pulled for once though once the CBA is resolved

Edited by number9, 15 August 2012 - 02:20 AM.


#331 Z Winged Dangler

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Posted 15 August 2012 - 08:14 AM

Fair point, but I don't really see it drastically changing the complexion of our forechecker and cycle in the postseason. Some new shot options, new angles - but the majority of the shots would probably still be taken from far out. Left-shot, right-shot - doesn't really matter if the whole reason you're being boxed out in the first place is that you're physically outclassed and lacking in drive and hunger and dirty, hard-nosed demolition men.

Last year, forcheck sucked. Cycle was ok.
Lacking in drive could have been attributed to the injury rash and everyone playing hurt. Dats and Lids were out for portions so Z couldn't rest at all and Cleary was a medicine ball. Mule got hurt too, but we were better when he was out and Nyquist was at .7 ppg before he came back.

The hunger and dirty, hard-nosed demolition men....we got Tootoo and Eaves should be good to go. We'll have more speed in the top 6 hopefully with slow ass Hudler gone and Nyquist and Brunner possible top 6 guys that both have wheels. Sammy's not half bad for speed too.

The new angles and shot options completely changes the attack. The Wings will have something we haven't had in a number of years having almost no RH forwards for the better part of 5-6 years and that's the element of surprise. When you have a team with only 1 RH player, teams know you can't attack as good from the left side and they load up the D on the side that you can actually one-time the puck from and you can plug the opposing team with a small box defence. Look no further than Tampa. We don't have a guy who can shoot like Stamkos, but when you have him and St. Louis on the ice at the same time who can both pass great to the guy across the ice and blast one-timers, it makes the defence spread out more and gives the offence more opportunities to get the goalie moving side to side and get him out of position. We should see a lot more shots with the goalies less square than we're used to seeing.

Free darkmanx!

 

"I play hockey, but I am not very good.  Can someone please tell me what it would take to sign with the Wings ? I can use a million or two."  ~ arag


#332 Buppy

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Posted 15 August 2012 - 10:32 AM

Sure but you can't deny Holland operates in a different way then most other GM's. Holland is an extreme on the spectrum. Plays extremely close to the vest, conservative, long-term game. On the other end of the spectrum you have Holmgren. Plays balls to the wall, high-risk high-reward, blow up the team to get that cup now game. Everyone else falls somewhere in between.

Sure Holland chased Nash, and Suter, and blah blah blah.....price wasnt right though and so he didnt pull triggers on things. Thats him. He's not the kind of guy who gives up Zetterberg for *insert Dman here*.....Holmgren is that guy. Mike Richards and Jeff Carter is all I gotta say.

So yes this off season is due to his decisions....bad or good....but those decisions were made by him and his philosophy of hockey business

I don't think this is true. I think Holland has been conservative mostly because we haven't had the need to be otherwise. In the last few years, we were handcuffed for a couple by the cap, and once we did get some space the options were limited, and our trade assets have been limited. Most of our best/most-tradeable prospects have been picked in the last few drafts. We don't have a 23yo putting up 76 points to give us the option of trading our stars, nor have Pav and Hank been rumored to have off-ice issues.

Holland may not be as 'extreme' as Holmgren or Wilson in San Jose, but that doesn't mean he's the complete opposite either.

#333 number9

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Posted 15 August 2012 - 01:22 PM

I don't think this is true. I think Holland has been conservative mostly because we haven't had the need to be otherwise. In the last few years, we were handcuffed for a couple by the cap, and once we did get some space the options were limited, and our trade assets have been limited. Most of our best/most-tradeable prospects have been picked in the last few drafts. We don't have a 23yo putting up 76 points to give us the option of trading our stars, nor have Pav and Hank been rumored to have off-ice issues.

Holland may not be as 'extreme' as Holmgren or Wilson in San Jose, but that doesn't mean he's the complete opposite either.


Of course those things were factors too

Agree to disagree

#334 hillbillywingsfan

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Posted 15 August 2012 - 01:46 PM

I don't know. I still think Holland should of thrown 150mil per at both Parise and Suter to try and change their minds of playing at home and together. I mean really.

Edited by hillbillywingsfan, 15 August 2012 - 01:48 PM.

msg-10491-1258682020.jpg


I LIVE IN TEXAS SO I DON'T DESERVE HOCKEY

#335 Dabura

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Posted 15 August 2012 - 03:14 PM

Having more righties should help. I don't deny that, and I understand the mechanics of it (e.g. more one-timer opportunities). However, this current roster probably loses against the Preds in the first round, same as the one that actually did lose.

Don't Toews me, bro!


#336 Z Winged Dangler

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Posted 15 August 2012 - 03:30 PM

Having more righties should help. I don't deny that, and I understand the mechanics of it (e.g. more one-timer opportunities). However, this current roster probably loses against the Preds in the first round, same as the one that actually did lose.

You are full of fear. Fear leads to the dark side.

Side note...No Suter, No Tootoo, No Radulov, pretty sure there's a few more gone...Preds are not good. Least of all better than we are with improved goaltending and forwards. And our offence was the part that let us down against the Preds last year. Not D or goaltending.

Free darkmanx!

 

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#337 TheXym

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Posted 15 August 2012 - 05:02 PM

The presence of multiple RH shots creating one-timer opportunities should do wonders for the offense, particularly on the PP. Z Winged Dangler hit it on the head.

How many times last season during GDT threads were people complaining about not going for a one timer on the PP. I recall mentioning the lack of one-timer setups quite a few times myself. I think we will be pleasantly surprised by the PP improvement this season.

Edit: Does anyone remember if we've had a legit one-timer threat up front since Hull and Shanny left?

Edited by TheXym, 15 August 2012 - 05:04 PM.

It's pronounced "Zim" not "Exim". Aw heck with it, just call me Scott.

#338 The Axe

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Posted 15 August 2012 - 07:57 PM

The presence of multiple RH shots creating one-timer opportunities should do wonders for the offense, particularly on the PP. Z Winged Dangler hit it on the head.

How many times last season during GDT threads were people complaining about not going for a one timer on the PP. I recall mentioning the lack of one-timer setups quite a few times myself. I think we will be pleasantly surprised by the PP improvement this season.

Edit: Does anyone remember if we've had a legit one-timer threat up front since Hull and Shanny left?


We still dont.

#339 TheXym

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Posted 15 August 2012 - 08:28 PM

We still dont.


With RH shots we can at least put someone there for the option. I'm not trying to say one of these young guys or Brunner is the next Shanny or Hull. However, even having the option of the one timer presents a facet to the offense that has been lacking. It's one more thing that opposing defenses are going to have to worry about. Who knows, having RH on the off wing also can send it the other way for an LH one timer. Maybe Nyquist or Brunner will flourish there. In any case, it's a step up from the overall look the PP had last year.
It's pronounced "Zim" not "Exim". Aw heck with it, just call me Scott.

#340 Dabura

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Posted 15 August 2012 - 10:10 PM

...pass, pass, pass, pass, pass, pass, pass, shot one-timer from the perimeter blocked by sprawling defenseman, pass, pass, pass...

Edited by Dabura, 15 August 2012 - 10:11 PM.

Don't Toews me, bro!






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