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Holland losing his moxie? Is Detroit slipping as UFA destination?

ken holland

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#21 Rick

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 07:45 AM

Dobberhockey perspective:

Puck Daddy – Red Wings GM criticized for lack of offseason splash, but is it premature? First of all, any criticism is stupid. Secondly, it’s not premature because even if nothing is done by the Red Wings this summer, they’re fine. So they were runner up in the Ryan Suter sweepstakes. You can’t win every free agent. So now what, they’re supposed to settle for the next best guy? Dumb. They need another defenseman, but there is certainly no rush. If they don’t get one until January or February, will that hurt? Not one bit. They don’t need to make a big splash. I love the forward group:

Valtteri Filppula Henrik Zetterberg Johan Franzen
Gustav Nyquist Pavel Datsyuk Mikael Samuelsson
Dan Cleary Darren Helm Todd Bertuzzi
Drew Miller Justin Abdelkader Jordin Tootoo
Patrick Eaves Cory Emmerton Jan Mursak

With Damien Brunner, Joakim Andersson and Tomas Tatar as the first three call-ups. I like it because I’m high on Nyquist making a splash right away. And on defense, Kronwall is a fine No.1 guy and White and Quincey are fine as No.3 and No.4.Brendan Smith can certainly slide in as a No.5. So the only hole is a No.2 defenseman. And until January or February, just give more responsibility to the rest of them. The Wings are fine, no need to make a splash. Suter would have been nice, but if I’m a Wings fan I don’t want them to settle or rush


Edited by Rick, 23 July 2012 - 07:45 AM.


#22 Dabura

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 09:58 AM

I love this "even if we do nothing, we're fine" attitude. Stupid, arrogant.

Don't Toews me, bro!


#23 Dabura

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 10:21 AM

Our scorers couldn't score to save their lives. Our bottom-6 was, by Babcock's own admission, a hugely weak link. Our blue line blew, our team defense sucked.

Our top-6 remains extremely one-dimensional. It's six kinda-sorty-gritty Euros who play a mostly non-physical, skill-centric, playmaker's game. They're going to get boxed out to the perimeter in the o-zone. They're going to pass about 300 more times than they should, then ultimately settle for a shot into the goalie's chest. And Sammy will push someone from behind after the whistle, and O Sweet Lord, is this not the most dynamic, dangerous scoring unit you have ever seen? So many looks they can throw you. So many ways they can hurt you.

Bottom-6 - I like the Tootoo signing. I like Helm as the third pivot, Bert and Cleary as his wingers. I don't think we've really imporved all that much. Are we significantly bigger? Stronger? Faster? Nastier? Do we boast more legitimate secondary scoring threats? Are we stronger defensively?

D - We lost Stuart and Lidstrom. Even with them in the lineup, our D was terrible.

So far, Helm is our biggest acquisition.

Edited by Dabura, 23 July 2012 - 10:22 AM.

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#24 SwedeLundin77

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 10:32 AM

How many of these nonsense threads are people going to start until we get it through their thick skulls that the simple answer to these silly, panicky questions is NO!

#25 Dabura

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 10:41 AM

This isn't a panic thread. Why does anything critical or objective or just non-"Holland can do no wrong" have to be panicking or "hating"?

Don't Toews me, bro!


#26 Barrie

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 10:41 AM

All the above and plus, the city isn't much of an attraction.

Actually a lot of athletes like Detroit. The staduims/arenas are always packed, and it's one of the best sport cities in North America. Athletes live in big houses in the suburbs anyway, and Detroit has nice 'burbs. Add to that, their money goes farther.

Most big cities are unsafe, so the inner city and crime rates don't concern athletes.
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#27 Barrie

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 10:54 AM

Our scorers couldn't score to save their lives. Our bottom-6 was, by Babcock's own admission, a hugely weak link. Our blue line blew, our team defense sucked.

Our top-6 remains extremely one-dimensional. It's six kinda-sorty-gritty Euros who play a mostly non-physical, skill-centric, playmaker's game. They're going to get boxed out to the perimeter in the o-zone. They're going to pass about 300 more times than they should, then ultimately settle for a shot into the goalie's chest. And Sammy will push someone from behind after the whistle, and O Sweet Lord, is this not the most dynamic, dangerous scoring unit you have ever seen? So many looks they can throw you. So many ways they can hurt you.

Bottom-6 - I like the Tootoo signing. I like Helm as the third pivot, Bert and Cleary as his wingers. I don't think we've really imporved all that much. Are we significantly bigger? Stronger? Faster? Nastier? Do we boast more legitimate secondary scoring threats? Are we stronger defensively?

D - We lost Stuart and Lidstrom. Even with them in the lineup, our D was terrible.

So far, Helm is our biggest acquisition.


Ok, so what would you have done? Keep in mind, Suter and Parise wanted to play together, and Parise is from Minnesota, and Columbus and Nashville don't want to trade with us. Would you really overpay for Doan or Semin when we have some young forwards ready to step in and play? Why not just see what we have this season, then add to it.

I agree we need to add someone on the blueline, but if Suter would rather join Parise in Minnesota and Nashille didn't want to trade us Weber, you would you add? And how would you add?

I think it's clear that drafting and developing players is the way to go now. The way the FA market is under the current CBA, it's really not worth getting locked into 13 year deals, and making players that may not even be the best guys on your team your highest paid.
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#28 FireCaptain

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 11:13 AM

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#29 Z Winged Dangler

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 11:47 AM

One's gotta think Holland has had a hard time selling the program in recent years.

I mean, yes we're an original six team with a previous winning tradition. However, we're also a team with an old, dilapidated arena, a team who just lost their franchise player, full of aging veterans and unproven youth....a team, playoff wise, has been going the wrong direction for the last 4 years.....

Yeah, doesn't really scream "attractive" does it?

Jesus Christ....of course Cougar likes your 100% negative post toward the Wings. Aren't they in the works of making a new arena? And when you lose your franchise player and you still have guys like Dats, Z, Kronner and young guys like Smith, Nyquist and Brunner around to insert some youth and energy into the lineup, you're not doing too bad.

The media is playing s*** up so hard about the Wings saying their dynasty is over and they're no longer a preferred destination... then why do guys want to come back after they lose for a couple years with a crap team and why do guys that lead other leagues in points want to come here...more than once and why does DeKeyser apparently want to sign with the Wings after he finishes school next year?

Call yourself a real Wings fan and post garbage that Wild fans are gonna like....come on dude. Have at least a little faith in a team that has the longest playoff streak in sports history and who between 1997 and 2008 gave us 4 Stanley Cups.

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#30 number9

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 12:41 PM

Last years holes: Grit, back up goalie, sniper and defensive depth.

This years holes: Grit, back up goalie, sniper, defensive depth, a #1 D-man, top 6 depth.

Seems the team has more holes this year.

Grit? Tootoo adds some, but, I would say its a wash with what was lost with Stuart, and even if the Wings are marginally more gritty, its not enough to say its been addressed. Back up goaltending? Are you kidding me? Conklin may have been s*** the last two seasons but Gustavsson's been worse, hopefully the change of scenery will help, but right now his GAA and Save % are both worse than Conklin's. Also this year the Wings are less deep on defense and on top 6 forwards, so they have regressed there. And finally they have no #1 D-man, and arguably no #2 d-man. Kronwall will hopefully continue his good play, but, hes in no way a #1.


Lidstrom - White
Kronwall - Stuart
Quincey - Ericsson
Kindl, Smith

^ We lacked defensive depth last year???? I disagree

Kronwall - White
Quincey - Smith
Ericsson - Kindl

^ This years defensive lines are not awful, Kronwall has been groomed for Lidstrom's spot for years, now is his time in the spot light. Smith is ready for the big show and Kindl can hold down a #6 spot, though I think he will develop into more than a #6er. Still though we definitely lack defensive depth this year.

We gained the agitator in Tootoo that we didn't have before. You only need 1 of those kind of guys.

Abdelkader - Helm - Cleary--------- Bertuzzi - Helm - Cleary
Miller - Emmerton - Eaves----------- Tootoo - Abdelkader - Eaves

Clearly this years bottom 6 is already much grittier, and has much more scoring potential. Our bottom 6 was a huge problem last year and I think it may have just become one of our biggest assets.

top 6 depth? we lost one top 6er....yeah Huds had a good wrist shot but he was not a great skater, not a physical presence, and was a defensive liability. Not sad to see him go from the top 6....This year we have Goose ready to step up and earn a top 6 spot, Brunner who has apparently already earned a spot (hopefully he'll keep it), and Samuelsson who is not the best top 6 forward but he's way better defensively than Hudler and has known chemistry with our other top 6 guys.....Then you have Cleary and Bertuzzi who can always step up if needed....were adding top 6 depth, not losing it.

Ok and last year WE DID NOT HAVE A BACK UP GOALIE lol and now we have one, so hole filled. Monster was forced to play #1 goalie minutes last year because of the goalie problems in Toronto....he's not a #1 guy, but he is a reliable back up. Howard is a work horse, all Monster has to do is be decent when howie needs a day off. Conks and Mac won't have NHL jobs for a reason.

so yeah I disagree with all the holes you think we have this year....I can see an argument for not having #2 defenseman, but I'm going to reserve judgement on that one until I see White play with Kronners, not Lids, next to him.

Edited by number9, 23 July 2012 - 12:45 PM.


#31 Dabura

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 12:43 PM

Ok, so what would you have done? Keep in mind, Suter and Parise wanted to play together, and Parise is from Minnesota, and Columbus and Nashville don't want to trade with us. Would you really overpay for Doan or Semin when we have some young forwards ready to step in and play? Why not just see what we have this season, then add to it.

I agree we need to add someone on the blueline, but if Suter would rather join Parise in Minnesota and Nashille didn't want to trade us Weber, you would you add? And how would you add?

I think it's clear that drafting and developing players is the way to go now. The way the FA market is under the current CBA, it's really not worth getting locked into 13 year deals, and making players that may not even be the best guys on your team your highest paid.


Instead of what I would've done, how about what I'd like to see? And that is: a more balanced, well-rounded, "dynamic" team - one that can, of course, play the puck-possession game, but can also change things up if that system falters.

We have skill. With the puck. When we have the puck. Beyond that, we're vanilla. We're not big. We're not physical. We're not nasty. We're not fast. We're not young. We can't punish on the forecheck. We can't play lockdown D. Our goalie is good, but we can't expect him to win games for us. Our special teams aren't spectacular.

All of which is to say: disrupt our system, and we fall apart. We have no fallback plan, no other looks we can throw the opposition. No other hats to wear.

"You say it like it's so simple, disrupting our system."

It is. Take away our time and space. Rush us. Take the body to us, hitting a man at every opportunity. Crash, bang, punish, wear down. Block shots. Box us out to the tops of the circles when we're on the forecheck. Shut down Datsyuk (he'll be battling an injury that has him at 75%, at best), shut down Zetterberg (ditto. Moreover, he's got a bad back; he can only take so much punishment.)

We've seen it done before. We saw it done again just a few months ago.

"We lost because of some unlucky bounces. Sometimes the puck luck just isn't there."

Look at the final scores of each game. It was a low-scoring, grinding, D-centric series. That's not us, that's not the game we like to play. We were forced to play the Predators' game. Defeat was, in retrospect, pretty much guaranteed - because, again: throw a wrench in our system and everything goes to s***.

We need new dimensions, new ingredients, new possibilities. Take our top-6, for example - it's basically six different versions of the same player. How about a power-forward, a guy who will crash and bang and drive to the net, a guy who won't be boxed out to the perimeter? (Nash, Ryan, Doan, Hartnell, Lucic, et al.)

We need a shot in the arm, new bood. Something to be excited about.

We need to sign big UFAs and/or trade.

Drafting? Unless we plan on tanking (or trading), we're not drafting high. And while, yes, we've found some gems in later rounds, that was when we were ahead of the curve. Now every team looks at Europe, digs for diamonds.

blahhhh

Don't Toews me, bro!


#32 hooon

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 01:16 PM

Our scorers couldn't score to save their lives. Our bottom-6 was, by Babcock's own admission, a hugely weak link. Our blue line blew, our team defense sucked.

Our top-6 remains extremely one-dimensional. It's six kinda-sorty-gritty Euros who play a mostly non-physical, skill-centric, playmaker's game. They're going to get boxed out to the perimeter in the o-zone. They're going to pass about 300 more times than they should, then ultimately settle for a shot into the goalie's chest. And Sammy will push someone from behind after the whistle, and O Sweet Lord, is this not the most dynamic, dangerous scoring unit you have ever seen? So many looks they can throw you. So many ways they can hurt you.

Bottom-6 - I like the Tootoo signing. I like Helm as the third pivot, Bert and Cleary as his wingers. I don't think we've really imporved all that much. Are we significantly bigger? Stronger? Faster? Nastier? Do we boast more legitimate secondary scoring threats? Are we stronger defensively?

D - We lost Stuart and Lidstrom. Even with them in the lineup, our D was terrible.

So far, Helm is our biggest acquisition.


We were one of the top scoring teams in the entire league last year, but ok...

Our bottom 6 was weak in the playoffs because our best bottom 6 player was injured.

Not sure how you can judge how 1 dimensional the top 6 is considering you've never once seen them play together. With Hudler gone and Bertuzzi likely out of the top 6, there are players like Sammy, Nyquist and Brunner who could all potentially have a spot.

Yes the defense needs work, but I fail to see how Holland is at fault for what happened at D.

You act as though the Wings are the only free agent destination and don't have competition from 29 other teams trying to sign players. This team is still better than the majority of other teams out there, still has the best coaching and management in the league, and isn't finished yet making moves this off-season.
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#33 Dabura

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 01:45 PM

The regular season means nothing. We always do well and have no problem scoring a ton of goals - then the postseason comes around and, whoa, suddenly we can't score to save our lives.

We're built for regular season dominance. We're not built for a deep postseason run. Right now, the team is basically the same as it was a few months ago. We know what we're getting with Sammy. Brunner has never played a shift in the NHL. This scoring unit will be neutralized by a bigger, stronger, younger, D-oriented team. It has no teeth.

Ian White is our #2 defenseman. There's no reason why that should be the case. Yes - Holland should've been better prepared for Nick's departure.

People keep saying the summer is still young and Holland still has a wealth of options. What are these options? Certainly most must be potential trades, and yet so many people seem opposed to trading any roster places. (Flip had zero goals against the Preds. Franzen had one, and it was a fluke.)

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#34 Vladifan

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 01:51 PM

Barring serious, long-term injuries, I think this team has a chance to look very good on the ice. Real, tangible priorities revolve around chemistry and how good the young'ns will get and how soon. So in my mind a lot of the above discussion and opinions are gonna be put on hold until I see how the team literally plays out. What's to hurt? What's not to gain? We nor Holland have any control over the cap; owners who won't even talk to us, and where potential players ultimately want to go. Cup's at least half full at this point.

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#35 Dabura

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 01:52 PM

Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Filppula, Franzen, Samuelsson, Brunner, Nyquist. Do you think we have enough European "skill players" in our top-6?

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#36 Vladifan

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 02:09 PM

This isn't a panic thread. Why does anything critical or objective or just non-"Holland can do no wrong" have to be panicking or "hating"?


I like the way you discuss things. You don't personally attack anyone and you keep it on topic. But when you say that any posters here are saying "Holland can do no wrong", that's just not true. Nobody here has said that. I think most of those who may not agree with you are just throwing in other factors that also affect the future of the Red Wings and their status. Peace out.

"He even ate with women who at that time were accorded the same status as the family donkey. Are we willing to break bread with, say, child sex slaves, transgender teens and undocumented workers? Because when Jesus comes back to Earth, that's where he'll be hanging."
You can easily judge the character of a man by how he treats those who can do nothing for him.

 
 
 


#37 Jesusberg

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 02:11 PM

I'll take losing your moxie over losing your damn mind *cough*ScottHowson*cough*

And yes, it's completely possible that Detroit's losing some of its allure. That's why Holland's stressed the importance of the draft the past number of years. I understand it's the off-season and there's no much to talk about, but nothing's going to be truly answered until the puck drops.

#38 Dabura

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 02:17 PM

I like the way you discuss things. You don't personally attack anyone and you keep it on topic. But when you say that any posters here are saying "Holland can do no wrong", that's just not true. Nobody here has said that. I think most of those who may not agree with you are just throwing in other factors that also affect the future of the Red Wings and their status. Peace out.


Sorry, wasn't necessarily saying anyone in this thread is saying "Holland can do no wrong." Also, I realize I'm really sounding like a broken record, pretty much saying the same thing in every post now, and it actually kind of annoys me, so I can't imagine it's a whole lot of fun for anyone else. I'm not angry or seething or calling for Holland's head or anything like that. (Well, maybe a little angry and seething.) Point being, it's all good.

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#39 GMRwings1983

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 05:16 PM

The regular season means nothing. We always do well and have no problem scoring a ton of goals - then the postseason comes around and, whoa, suddenly we can't score to save our lives.

We're built for regular season dominance. We're not built for a deep postseason run. Right now, the team is basically the same as it was a few months ago. We know what we're getting with Sammy. Brunner has never played a shift in the NHL. This scoring unit will be neutralized by a bigger, stronger, younger, D-oriented team. It has no teeth.

Ian White is our #2 defenseman. There's no reason why that should be the case. Yes - Holland should've been better prepared for Nick's departure.

People keep saying the summer is still young and Holland still has a wealth of options. What are these options? Certainly most must be potential trades, and yet so many people seem opposed to trading any roster places. (Flip had zero goals against the Preds. Franzen had one, and it was a fluke.)


You call finishing 5th, regular season dominance?

And that was last year with a better team. :)

Edited by GMRwings1983, 23 July 2012 - 05:16 PM.

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#40 frankgrimes

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 05:58 PM

The way I see it, we have two options:

1. save money for next yer and see what our young-guns are worth
2. settle for non toptier players, clinge somehow into the playoffs and getting our asses handed to us by Vancouver, LosAngeles, Chicago or Nashville

To me options 1 seems like the better one here.

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