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Holland losing his moxie? Is Detroit slipping as UFA destination?

ken holland

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#41 Vladifan

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 06:59 PM

The way I see it, we have two options:

1. save money for next yer and see what our young-guns are worth
2. settle for non toptier players, clinge somehow into the playoffs and getting our asses handed to us by Vancouver, LosAngeles, Chicago or Nashville

To me options 1 seems like the better one here.


The big question here is (and another one WE have no control over) is how soon and how much the young'ns will be played. The hierarchy has to be willing to to throw 'em in there and hope they do more than float.

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#42 Carman

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 07:04 PM

We have skill. With the puck. When we have the puck. Beyond that, we're vanilla. We're not big. We're not physical. We're not nasty. We're not fast. We're not young. We can't punish on the forecheck. We can't play lockdown D. Our goalie is good, but we can't expect him to win games for us. Our special teams aren't spectacular.

It is. Take away our time and space. Rush us. Take the body to us, hitting a man at every opportunity. Crash, bang, punish, wear down. Block shots. Box us out to the tops of the circles when we're on the forecheck. Shut down Datsyuk (he'll be battling an injury that has him at 75%, at best), shut down Zetterberg (ditto. Moreover, he's got a bad back; he can only take so much punishment.)

We've seen it done before. We saw it done again just a few months ago.


I have to disagree there, after rewatching the Predator series, if anything they gave us time with the puck in the offensive zone. They kept us to the outside, and force us to take a bad angle shot, clear the rebound, and take advantage of our defenseman pinching. We gave up 20 more odd man rushes than Nashville in only 5 games. I believe it was more of a system issue, than a personnel issue. Defenseman were way to aggressive and it cost us.

Nashville was aggressive in the offensive zone, but surprisingly passive in the defensive zone, they let us take shot after shot(outshot them by 10). And took advantage when we overextended in the offensive zone.

Edited by Carman, 23 July 2012 - 07:04 PM.


#43 Doc Holliday

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 07:24 PM

I like how Cougar is hiding behind the words of other posters instead of saying something himself.

As far as the thread goes, this is the first time since 2008 that Detroit has actually been able to sign high-tier players from free agency. It didn't work out. Suter seemed to be set on coming here until Parise got a hold of him, Nash was cockblocked by Howson from coming here, Weber was signed to a ridiculous offer sheet by a team he appeared to be only interested in, and of all that is left there is still left to be seen.

It will be interesting to see how contract talks work out now that these crazy long term deals are getting removed after this CBA. I don't like this team now, but we can rebuild it. We have the technology.

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#44 frankgrimes

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 07:56 PM

The big question here is (and another one WE have no control over) is how soon and how much the young'ns will be played. The hierarchy has to be willing to to throw 'em in there and hope they do more than float.


this is Babcock's and to a lesser extent Renney's job.

]It will be interesting to see how contract talks work out now that these crazy long term deals are getting removed after this CBA. I don't like this team now, but we can rebuild it. We have the technology.


Fehr will not rollover and therefore security-contracts are here to stay. Imagine you are a player, wouldn't you like some sort of longtime safety? Of course you would. Some owners just have to stop being greedy POS or sell the team to guys, who want to win and spend instead of being cheap.

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#45 IllinoisRedWingsFan

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 08:32 PM

Okay here's my spin. I don't think that were really losing our luster. Yes we've had a few bumps along the road but in the case of Suter it was the fact that he wanted to be closer to home that led him to signing with the Wild. I really think if the Wild weren't interested he'd be a Wing. Parise is overrated IMO.

There's no way in hell that Nashville would have traded Weber to us without at least Smith, Nyquist, Flip and a couple of draft picks.

Helm will be back, Conklin is gone, Hudler is gone.

Do I like this ""even if we do nothing, we're fine" attitude?" NO! I don't we still have some things to work on and it is Holland's duty to look at everything possible including a Yandle or Bobby Ryan trade.

I think were good for a #5 or #6 in the West. Chicago hasn't done much, Nashville is getting worse, Minnesota will continue to be so-so.

#46 frankgrimes

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 06:33 AM

Good posting, I guess hardly anyone likes the "we're fine attitude", at least to me it is better, than the option of overspending for players, that don't help us much. Chicago is in on to the Luongo rumours, Nashville even if the lose Weber has Rinne and as we saw and Vancouver, Los Angeles are still the powerhouses of the western conference.

Realistically I see us behind the pack, somwhere in the 6+ range.

I am having a hard time to understand, on how exactly Parise can be overrated? Young captain, superb work ethic, leading by example and can play north and south of the rink? He wanted to play at home and with Suter, there was nothing we or even the Penguins mind you the chance of playing on a line with Crosby or Malkin could have done. Suter if this wasn't a package deal would have been a Wing I am sure of that.

Does Kenny have some work to do? For sure but I trust the best GM in the league to bring in some shortterm solutions and trying to reload next year.

Could we have offersheeted Weber? but throwing 14 Million ! at a guy who had two concussions in a row is a big risk one, I am glad we didn't take.

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#47 IllinoisRedWingsFan

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 09:12 AM

Frank,

What I meant by him overrated is he's not worth the money he is being paid. I should have phrased that post a little better while he is a good player I don't think he's worth the money he is getting. I do think Parise is an excellent player but not worth the $12+ Million a year he is getting paid. No one is worth that much IMO including Crybaby Crosby.

Even if Chicago gets a better Goalie in Luongo IMO they still have a few holes, with Nashville when you have Hal Gill as your #1 D-Man you have a hole or two (Then again we shouldn't be talking.)

I do agree about Weber's concussion issues and I think it will come back to bite Philadelphia in the ***.

Good posting, I guess hardly anyone likes the "we're fine attitude", at least to me it is better, than the option of overspending for players, that don't help us much. Chicago is in on to the Luongo rumours, Nashville even if the lose Weber has Rinne and as we saw and Vancouver, Los Angeles are still the powerhouses of the western conference.

Realistically I see us behind the pack, somwhere in the 6+ range.

I am having a hard time to understand, on how exactly Parise can be overrated? Young captain, superb work ethic, leading by example and can play north and south of the rink? He wanted to play at home and with Suter, there was nothing we or even the Penguins mind you the chance of playing on a line with Crosby or Malkin could have done. Suter if this wasn't a package deal would have been a Wing I am sure of that.

Does Kenny have some work to do? For sure but I trust the best GM in the league to bring in some shortterm solutions and trying to reload next year.

Could we have offersheeted Weber? but throwing 14 Million ! at a guy who had two concussions in a row is a big risk one, I am glad we didn't take.



#48 Z Winged Dangler

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 01:01 PM

I like how Cougar is hiding behind the words of other posters instead of saying something himself.

As far as the thread goes, this is the first time since 2008 that Detroit has actually been able to sign high-tier players from free agency. It didn't work out. Suter seemed to be set on coming here until Parise got a hold of him, Nash was cockblocked by Howson from coming here, Weber was signed to a ridiculous offer sheet by a team he appeared to be only interested in, and of all that is left there is still left to be seen.

It will be interesting to see how contract talks work out now that these crazy long term deals are getting removed after this CBA. I don't like this team now, but we can rebuild it. We have the technology.

Posted Image

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#49 EastonWings

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 03:48 PM

IF we couldn't get passed the first rd with lidstrom,Stuart and hurdler. Babcock insist with the current roster were headed backwards.. How does tootoo , Samuelson, Gustafson make us better? We've went backwards. Low balling these free agents assuming cause they would wear the wing wheel doesn't bring these free agents in anymore. We no longer have yzerman,shanhan,chelios,lidstrom to lure in big fish kids. It will stay that way until holland decides to outbid his opponent in free agency. Something he has never done.

#50 FlashyG

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 04:27 PM

IF we couldn't get passed the first rd with lidstrom,Stuart and hurdler. Babcock insist with the current roster were headed backwards.. How does tootoo , Samuelson, Gustafson make us better? We've went backwards. Low balling these free agents assuming cause they would wear the wing wheel doesn't bring these free agents in anymore. We no longer have yzerman,shanhan,chelios,lidstrom to lure in big fish kids. It will stay that way until holland decides to outbid his opponent in free agency. Something he has never done.


Other than possibly Parise, (who I think the Wings only approached because they needed to, to have a shot at Suter) who have the Wings lowballed?

Yes losing Lidstrom is a huge hit to the team but our forward group has gotten better and we now have a back-up goalie able to give Howard a rest ,something we sorely missed last year. We have more grit in the bottom 6 and we are MUCH MUCH faster, which was one of the biggest problems the team had.

I think we've taken a step backwards defensively, but if Howard continues to improve, and Smith steps in and has a good rookie season I don't think the step back will be that noticeable, especially if we sign another defensive guy to fill Stuarts role. If we do that, we could, if all goes well be an even better team next year.

#51 number9

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 04:32 PM

IF we couldn't get passed the first rd with lidstrom,Stuart and hurdler. Babcock insist with the current roster were headed backwards.. How does tootoo , Samuelson, Gustafson make us better? We've went backwards. Low balling these free agents assuming cause they would wear the wing wheel doesn't bring these free agents in anymore. We no longer have yzerman,shanhan,chelios,lidstrom to lure in big fish kids. It will stay that way until holland decides to outbid his opponent in free agency. Something he has never done.


Gap year. We're building from within, not with overpaid FA's. Our prospect wave will be rolling through in the next 3 to 4 years. We won't be able to pay them reasonable contracts then if we overpay for FA's now.

#52 pondrocket

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 04:40 PM

While Pav, Hank & Kronner are great, Detroit simply does not have the collection of skilled assets that other players drool over playing with. The cap has made it difficult, but Kenny's philosophy has made it tougher. He has waited three years too long to address his team's needs. Now we are almost the new Calgary Flames.

I hope Jimmy D & Mr. I don't take three years to address the GM issies.

#53 Dabura

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 07:51 PM

While Pav, Hank & Kronner are great, Detroit simply does not have the collection of skilled assets that other players drool over playing with. The cap has made it difficult, but Kenny's philosophy has made it tougher. He has waited three years too long to address his team's needs. Now we are almost the new Calgary Flames.


Y'know, I think you pretty much nailed it here.

Briere, Hartnell, Simmonds, Giroux, Couturier...if I'm Doan or Ryan, I'm dying to be a Flyer.

Don't Toews me, bro!


#54 Bring Back The Bruise Bros

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 07:56 PM

Y'know, I think you pretty much nailed it here.

Briere, Hartnell, Simmonds, Giroux, Couturier...if I'm Doan or Ryan, I'm dying to be a Flyer.

The sheer thought of Jody Shelley on your side is enough to draw most free agents to Philly.

Edited by Bring Back The Bruise Bros, 24 July 2012 - 07:56 PM.

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#55 Dabura

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 08:01 PM

The sheer thought of Jody Shelley on your side is enough to draw most free agents to Philly.


Truth!

Don't Toews me, bro!


#56 IllinoisRedWingsFan

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 08:54 PM

While Pav, Hank & Kronner are great, Detroit simply does not have the collection of skilled assets that other players drool over playing with. The cap has made it difficult, but Kenny's philosophy has made it tougher. He has waited three years too long to address his team's needs. Now we are almost the new Calgary Flames.

I hope Jimmy D & Mr. I don't take three years to address the GM issies.

At least we aren't stuck with too many boat anchor contracts YET!

#57 frankgrimes

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 09:06 PM

Frank,

What I meant by him overrated is he's not worth the money he is being paid. I should have phrased that post a little better while he is a good player I don't think he's worth the money he is getting. I do think Parise is an excellent player but not worth the $12+ Million a year he is getting paid. No one is worth that much IMO including Crybaby Crosby.

Even if Chicago gets a better Goalie in Luongo IMO they still have a few holes, with Nashville when you have Hal Gill as your #1 D-Man you have a hole or two (Then again we shouldn't be talking.)

I do agree about Weber's concussion issues and I think it will come back to bite Philadelphia in the ***.


Fair enough that is true but let us face it, come UFA day most players are getting overpaid. In terms of Parise and Suter a lot of it has to do with simple math, such guys usually don't make it to UFA ever if they do, you have to overpay to get them or have a nice "hometown bonus".

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The Offseason of truth ...

Welcome to hockeytown Jonas aka Lundquist 2 Gustavsson!

blank cheque for The Captain or Jim Star Nil please..


#58 IllinoisRedWingsFan

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 09:13 PM

Fair enough that is true but let us face it, come UFA day most players are getting overpaid. In terms of Parise and Suter a lot of it has to do with simple math, such guys usually don't make it to UFA ever if they do, you have to overpay to get them or have a nice "hometown bonus".

Bingo! You hit the nail on the head. IIRC we were the team that made the $100 Million + offer for Suter FWIW.

#59 Dabura

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 09:14 PM

I have to disagree there, after rewatching the Predator series, if anything they gave us time with the puck in the offensive zone. They kept us to the outside, and force us to take a bad angle shot, clear the rebound, and take advantage of our defenseman pinching. We gave up 20 more odd man rushes than Nashville in only 5 games. I believe it was more of a system issue, than a personnel issue. Defenseman were way to aggressive and it cost us.

Nashville was aggressive in the offensive zone, but surprisingly passive in the defensive zone, they let us take shot after shot(outshot them by 10). And took advantage when we overextended in the offensive zone.


Sorry, should've been clearer - re: the Preds successfully taking away our time and space, I was talking more about their forecheck than their d-zone work. I think.

Edited by Dabura, 24 July 2012 - 09:23 PM.

Don't Toews me, bro!


#60 Z Winged Dangler

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 12:57 PM

Sorry, should've been clearer - re: the Preds successfully taking away our time and space, I was talking more about their forecheck than their d-zone work. I think.

the offer to Suter was in the 90's, not over 100 mil.

"I play hockey, but I am not very good.  Can someone please tell me what it would take to sign with the Wings ? I can use a million or two."  ~ arag

 

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