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Holland losing his moxie? Is Detroit slipping as UFA destination?

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#161 Xraymind7781

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 01:25 AM

I see where your coming from but I completely disagree. Players come here to win....not to play with one man....Nick is gone yes but this is not a gutter team, we still have a very competitive roster and I'm willing to bet there will be more additions before February is over.

Also Hollands philosophy does not revolve around the comings and goings of Nick Lidstrom....If everything is "different now" then why did we sign Samuelsson? It's cause none of our prospects are ready in Hollands eyes yet so he signed a band-aid player.....We only have 1 prospect guaranteed to be trickling in and thats Smith....There are no holes our prospects MUST fill...they will continue to over-ripen as they've always done.


I agree with this in parts. Players did come here to win. As this team sits, it is not a contender. As of right now, players are not coming here to win. I realize this is just one off season. But the fact remains, this is not a cup contending team. Again anything can happen but you heard Babcocks complaints at the end of last year. Scoring hasnt improved and to boot the defense is allot weaker. This is not an atrractive scenario to anyhone who wants to win.

As for Hollands philosophy not revolving around the coming and going of Lidstrom; I don't know how this comment could be further from reality. Everything he does from here on out will revolve around suring up the void left by Lidstroms unworldly talent. Ken Holland is a great GM, but nobody could have prepaired for life after possibly the greatest defenseman to ever play the game. Ken Hollands philosophy just left the building. He's working hard now on building a new one.

#162 number9

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 01:26 AM

Based on that list, you'll have a lot of overrated, average and bottom six NHL'ers in a few years! I'm not sure that's the plan you wanna have.


Howard? premier #1 goaltender
Kronwall? top 2 D-man
Filppula? top 6 forward
Hudler? top 6 forward
Quincey? top 4 D-man

plz keep ur crack smoking in Minnesota

#163 number9

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 01:34 AM

I agree with this in parts. Players did come here to win. As this team sits, it is not a contender. As of right now, players are not coming here to win. I realize this is just one off season. But the fact remains, this is not a cup contending team. Again anything can happen but you heard Babcocks complaints at the end of last year. Scoring hasnt improved and to boot the defense is allot weaker. This is not an atrractive scenario to anyhone who wants to win.

As for Hollands philosophy not revolving around the coming and going of Lidstrom; I don't know how this comment could be further from reality. Everything he does from here on out will revolve around suring up the void left by Lidstroms unworldly talent. Ken Holland is a great GM, but nobody could have prepaired for life after possibly the greatest defenseman to ever play the game. Ken Hollands philosophy just left the building. He's working hard now on building a new one.


I forgot you can tell the future.....for all you know Brunner is the real deal and Smith is the next coming.

And as for Lidstrom comments....yeah we lost Lidstrom....we dont have a Lidstrom anymore, BUT NIETHER DOES ANY OTHER TEAM. We have just as much of a chance to win the cup as any other premier team. for pete sake LA was an 8 seed and NJ was a 6. get real anything can happen int he playoffs.

#164 The Axe

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 01:44 AM

Exactly. We need some of these "prospects" that are "over-ripening" to actually turn out to be GOAL SCORERS.

#165 The Axe

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 01:53 AM

Number9, youre dreaming. I want to have your optimism, but we are 3 moves away from cup contention and everyone knows it. We need 1 really good defenseman (Yandle). We need one really good goal scorer (Ryan). And we need one really tough big guy (??). Problem is we have to make holes to fill holes with these players. With Parise and Suter it was just a matter of money. Holland wasnt willing to spend it.

#166 number9

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 02:05 AM

Number9, youre dreaming. I want to have your optimism, but we are 3 moves away from cup contention and everyone knows it. We need 1 really good defenseman (Yandle). We need one really good goal scorer (Ryan). And we need one really tough big guy (??). Problem is we have to make holes to fill holes with these players. With Parise and Suter it was just a matter of money. Holland wasnt willing to spend it.


so sorry, im done feeding the troll

#167 The Axe

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 09:14 AM

Your argument has failed with others, as well. So you resort to name calling? Tell me why a lot of us our nervous that these Griffins and new comers arent the answer and that trades are necessary now to ice a competitive team. Why do you feel different? Brunner has never played NHL hockey. Nyquist can count his NHL goals on one hand. Tootoo and Samuelsson were let go by other teams. And we didnt replace a 7 time Norris winner with anyone substantial. How do you feel good about all of this?

#168 chuckdee

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 11:26 AM

Unlike the NBA, where a handful of teams are starting to dominate the FA market for numerous reasons, I don't think the Wings organization is slipping. Bottom line is money talks. Other's are spending it this off season and the Wings aren't. With that said, it's been a disappointing off season for me.


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#169 Hatethedrake!

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 11:35 AM

This summer has been disappointing for Wings fans. However what would you guys have had Holland do? He tried for Parise and Suter and they both chose Minny. He made an offer for Rick Nash and Howson didn't even make a counter offer. He had interest in Weber but had had no chance to give him an Offer Sheet. He was not going to give Semin 7 mil a year. Pay Semin more than Dats and Z? He made an offer for Doan but he wants too much term and money. He is 35 years old not 30. So is he supposed to sign average players to ridiculous contracts just to get to the Cap? Would you guys like him to sign Kubina for 4 mil? Colaiacovo for 4 mil? Huselius for 5 mil? Does this really improve the team? I agree that Kenny does need to s*** or get off the pot. But I believe him when he says "it has to make sense." We don't know what other teams are offering. Maybe every trade discussion begins and ends with WE WANT BRENDAN SMITH. I just don't see what Kenny can do right now other than going with what we have and hoping guys can step up their play. Guys like Flip, Kron, Jimmy, Pavs, Z, Mule, Helm, Abs, Quincey, Ericsson, etc. Wouldn't it be nice to have all this Cap space during the season or at the deadline when other teams are capped out and a guy like Iginla suddenly becomes available? I'd take that over "we should trade for JBO."

Edited by Hatethedrake!, 30 July 2012 - 11:36 AM.

Jordan Tootoo will wreck shop.

We need someone like Parise that can penetrate the box.-blueadams

#170 Dabura

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 12:49 PM

However what would you guys have had Holland do?


It should never have gotten to this point.

Don't Toews me, bro!


#171 St. Michael (the Red Wing)

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 12:52 PM

Not Holland's fault for no "big names" coming to Detroit since Hossa. People are smoking crack or something damn. This thread bugs me too. lol

#172 Z Winged Dangler

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 12:59 PM

I forgot you can tell the future.....for all you know Brunner is the real deal and Smith is the next coming.

And as for Lidstrom comments....yeah we lost Lidstrom....we dont have a Lidstrom anymore, BUT NIETHER DOES ANY OTHER TEAM. We have just as much of a chance to win the cup as any other premier team. for pete sake LA was an 8 seed and NJ was a 6. get real anything can happen int he playoffs.

that's exactly what i said when Lids retired, but we've been agreeing on things all summer while most people are discounting everyone in the Wings org from Holland to Brunner saying people need to be hanged and ALL of our prospects and signings aren't gonna measure up and will be busts. what a pathetic offseason...and not by Holland.

This offseason will determine whether Ken Holland should still be employed with the Wings organization.

 

Please put Smith on the Power Play!


#173 The Axe

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 01:18 PM

Holland struck out with Suter and Parise. We will see what kind of a genius he is now.

#174 Dabura

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 01:41 PM

Not Holland's fault for no "big names" coming to Detroit since Hossa. People are smoking crack or something damn. This thread bugs me too. lol


You know what bugs me? This mentality that Holland is, essentially, infallible, and that anyone who criticizes him and/or the Wings at large is smoking crack, or spoiled, or insane, etc. I like Holland as much as the next guy. No, really, I do. But, objectively? We're in a hole. A big one. And if there's anyone to blame, it's Holland. Now, in saying that, am I calling for Holland's head? No. Am I saying the sky is falling? No. Am I "hating" this team and being a "fairweather fan"? No. Am I disregarding his career accomplishments? No. Am I saying he's anything less than the best GM in the league? No. I'm saying he has s*** the bed, and it bothers me. One of the main reasons why it bothers me is that I do like Holland as much as the next guy, and I do respect and appreciate him and the work he has done (and does on a mostly daily basis). So, for me to look at where things are now and try to reconcile that with "Best GM Ever, Man With The Plan"...it's troubling. I'm all for cutting him slack, and believing in a Master Plan which subsumes all of these smaller "failures." But at the same time - GMing 101, man! We've had trouble scoring in the postseason for how long? Our bottom-6 has been too small and short on secondary scoring threats for how long? Our D - everyone knew Stuart would be leaving and that Nick would be gone any offseason now, very possibly even this offseason. So where are the moves? Where are the steps taken to rectify, or at least seriously address, (or hell, even just acknowledge), these problems? Why is Kyle Quincey our one new-blood on the back end? Why is Ian White our #2 defenseman? Why is our top-6 literally all "skilled" Euros, when our whole problem with scoring in the postseason is we're easily pushed out to the perimeter in the offensive zone (as we've seen happen in the postseason about 90 times)? The top-6 is a real sore point for me. We need new ingredients in the top-6, new dimensions, new looks we can throw, new ways we can hurt. What we've added this offseason is a retread who may not even be a regular in the top-6, a guy who's never played a single game in the NHL, and Nyquist. And we're calling it a Youth Movement - when, in fact, it's really more of a "s***, what else can we do?" indirect admission of failure. Holland is great largely because he's always found a way to keep us from falling into exactly this sort of black hole of "necessary mediocrity" (i.e. having only 2-3 trade assets, losing luster as a FA destination, etc.) What do we do if we lose three key players to injury and they're out all at the same time? We realize this forward "depth" people keep bragging about is really more a matter of quantity than one of quality.

Ugh.

Don't Toews me, bro!


#175 Carman

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 02:23 PM

You know what bugs me? This mentality that Holland is, essentially, infallible, and that anyone who criticizes him and/or the Wings at large is smoking crack, or spoiled, or insane, etc. I like Holland as much as the next guy. No, really, I do. But, objectively? We're in a hole. A big one. And if there's anyone to blame, it's Holland. Now, in saying that, am I calling for Holland's head? No. Am I saying the sky is falling? No. Am I "hating" this team and being a "fairweather fan"? No. Am I disregarding his career accomplishments? No. Am I saying he's anything less than the best GM in the league? No. I'm saying he has s*** the bed, and it bothers me. One of the main reasons why it bothers me is that I do like Holland as much as the next guy, and I do respect and appreciate him and the work he has done (and does on a mostly daily basis). So, for me to look at where things are now and try to reconcile that with "Best GM Ever, Man With The Plan"...it's troubling. I'm all for cutting him slack, and believing in a Master Plan which subsumes all of these smaller "failures." But at the same time - GMing 101, man! We've had trouble scoring in the postseason for how long? Our bottom-6 has been too small and short on secondary scoring threats for how long? Our D - everyone knew Stuart would be leaving and that Nick would be gone any offseason now, very possibly even this offseason. So where are the moves? Where are the steps taken to rectify, or at least seriously address, (or hell, even just acknowledge), these problems? Why is Kyle Quincey our one new-blood on the back end? Why is Ian White our #2 defenseman? Why is our top-6 literally all "skilled" Euros, when our whole problem with scoring in the postseason is we're easily pushed out to the perimeter in the offensive zone (as we've seen happen in the postseason about 90 times)? The top-6 is a real sore point for me. We need new ingredients in the top-6, new dimensions, new looks we can throw, new ways we can hurt. What we've added this offseason is a retread who may not even be a regular in the top-6, a guy who's never played a single game in the NHL, and Nyquist. And we're calling it a Youth Movement - when, in fact, it's really more of a "s***, what else can we do?" indirect admission of failure. Holland is great largely because he's always found a way to keep us from falling into exactly this sort of black hole of "necessary mediocrity" (i.e. having only 2-3 trade assets, losing luster as a FA destination, etc.) What do we do if we lose three key players to injury and they're out all at the same time? We realize this forward "depth" people keep bragging about is really more a matter of quantity than one of quality.

Ugh.


It's a very difficult thing to keep a team a Stanley Cup contender for your entire time as a General Manager. Maybe this current situation was just unavoidable? Why does it have to be Holland failed to make the right moves, when it could very well be there was no moves to be made? Why do people have to attribute blame to someone for a situation they couldn't even begin to understand?

If you want to blame Holland for going after Quincey, that's understandable. It was a move that was documented and can be looked back on. Quincey was had for a non-roster player, and has shown glimpses of being a very good top 4 dman in the past. He's got size, speed, and puck skills just a matter of him understanding and getting comfortable in the system.

What moves did you want him to do to replace Lidstrom? There hasn't been a defenseman moved the past 5 years that can even be considered a top 10 defenseman? What ass do you want Holland to place his hand up to find one? Ian White was great signing this past year

Hard to change your top 6 through trade. Especially a top 6 that is intact of being Stanley Cup champions and helping the team make the playoff year in year out. Sure it would be nice to change it up, they've struggled the past few playoffs. But Nash wasn't an option, and personally I'm not sold on him. Semin would be a rental and I don't believe would ever help you win a Stanley Cup, and I'd rather give Nyquist/Brunner and shot at the top 6 than Semin. Just so we can see what we have and if we need to move on or what.

A game hasn't even been played, all of this is based on paper. On paper what if Datsyuk/Zetterberg go back to 90+ points, Filpulla reproduces 60, Quincey goes back to 09 and gets .7 ppg, Kronwall has a 50 point season, Howard continues to prove to be a top 10 goalie, Smith/Nyquist has a Calder caliber season, Sammy gives you 50 points, Bertuzzi, gives you 40. Things don't have to be all negative, these are all possibilities as each player has proved to do this(Smith/Nyquist may be a leap of faith, but they've proved to be very very good AHLers at a young age and that trends positively to their production in the NHL),

Then maybe players that have yet to prove themselves will, Ericsson could finally learn to block a shot, Kindl may figure out the NHL and use his talent, Helm might learn how to hit a corner and stickhandle, Abdelkader/Tootoo can feed off of each other and really make that 4th line into a force that helps the entire team, Franzen may decide to play 80 games at full speed.

It doesn't have to be negative, this situation isn't all bad, and saying our prospect pool is not good just proves that you are trying to find disappointment, and if that's the case you don't have to look hard at any team's situation.

Edited by Carman, 30 July 2012 - 02:37 PM.


#176 number9

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 02:24 PM

You know what bugs me? This mentality that Holland is, essentially, infallible, and that anyone who criticizes him and/or the Wings at large is smoking crack, or spoiled, or insane, etc. I like Holland as much as the next guy. No, really, I do. But, objectively? We're in a hole. A big one. And if there's anyone to blame, it's Holland. Now, in saying that, am I calling for Holland's head? No. Am I saying the sky is falling? No. Am I "hating" this team and being a "fairweather fan"? No. Am I disregarding his career accomplishments? No. Am I saying he's anything less than the best GM in the league? No. I'm saying he has s*** the bed, and it bothers me. One of the main reasons why it bothers me is that I do like Holland as much as the next guy, and I do respect and appreciate him and the work he has done (and does on a mostly daily basis). So, for me to look at where things are now and try to reconcile that with "Best GM Ever, Man With The Plan"...it's troubling. I'm all for cutting him slack, and believing in a Master Plan which subsumes all of these smaller "failures." But at the same time - GMing 101, man! We've had trouble scoring in the postseason for how long? Our bottom-6 has been too small and short on secondary scoring threats for how long? Our D - everyone knew Stuart would be leaving and that Nick would be gone any offseason now, very possibly even this offseason. So where are the moves? Where are the steps taken to rectify, or at least seriously address, (or hell, even just acknowledge), these problems? Why is Kyle Quincey our one new-blood on the back end? Why is Ian White our #2 defenseman? Why is our top-6 literally all "skilled" Euros, when our whole problem with scoring in the postseason is we're easily pushed out to the perimeter in the offensive zone (as we've seen happen in the postseason about 90 times)? The top-6 is a real sore point for me. We need new ingredients in the top-6, new dimensions, new looks we can throw, new ways we can hurt. What we've added this offseason is a retread who may not even be a regular in the top-6, a guy who's never played a single game in the NHL, and Nyquist. And we're calling it a Youth Movement - when, in fact, it's really more of a "s***, what else can we do?" indirect admission of failure. Holland is great largely because he's always found a way to keep us from falling into exactly this sort of black hole of "necessary mediocrity" (i.e. having only 2-3 trade assets, losing luster as a FA destination, etc.) What do we do if we lose three key players to injury and they're out all at the same time? We realize this forward "depth" people keep bragging about is really more a matter of quantity than one of quality.

Ugh.


You know what bugs me? People who say we've s*** the bed and were in a "big hole" before they've even seen this team take the ice. Not saying Holland is infallible, just saying we should reserve judgement till Holland and this team have a chance to show what they're made of. I trust that Holland knows what he's doing better than you and I do....hence why he has an office in the best front office in all of hockey and we're in our armchairs.....I'll join the doom n gloomers like yourself when the ship ACTUALLY sinks....till then I'll wait and hope for the best come fall.

#177 The Axe

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 02:38 PM

Im fine with accepting not being able to get parise and suter if our offer was 10 mil per 12 years for both those guys and the Wild went to 10.5. Then I'd believe it wasnt a money thing and those guys just didnt want to play in Detroit. However, considering we dumped 10 mil plus into Bertuzzi, Samuelsson, Tootoo, Gustavson, and Quincey = 5 NON-impact players, instead of making that money available for impact players, I firmly believe Holland doesnt know what he's doing.

#178 Carman

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 02:40 PM

Im fine with accepting not being able to get parise and suter if our offer was 10 mil per 12 years for both those guys and the Wild went to 10.5. Then I'd believe it wasnt a money thing and those guys just didnt want to play in Detroit. However, considering we dumped 10 mil plus into Bertuzzi, Samuelsson, Tootoo, Gustavson, and Quincey = 5 NON-impact players, instead of making that money available for impact players, I firmly believe Holland doesnt know what he's doing.


Like who?

Edited by Carman, 30 July 2012 - 02:40 PM.


#179 The Axe

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 02:41 PM

Suter and Parise

#180 Carman

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 02:44 PM

Suter and Parise


I don't think money was the issue, they picked Minnesota. Not for money, but because they wanted to play at "home".





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