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jroc86

Bouwmeester opinions? Potential trades? *merged*

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I'm pretty sure even the people that like Bouwmeester don't want to give up these assets. I would only do it for players not on the roster, or non top six guys.

Even with his enormous cap hit, he's still a top pairing guy, and it's not like we would use the whole 13 million anyways. Bouwmeester is overpaid, and overrated, no one is denying that, but that doesn't make him a bad defenseman, it just makes him a bad #1 guy.

He's finished + only ONCE in his career, and last year finished -21. How can anybody with those kind of stats be considered "a top defenseman".

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Just want to correct this notion on Quincey. He's more than a third pairing, he led his team in ice-team on the top pairing at 23:36 a night in 09-10, and 20+ each and every night since, he played more than Stuart last season, and just a minute behind Kronwall, and 4 minutes more than Ericsson. Quincey is also a productive offensive guy, even with how he struggled with us last season he still was well within top 60 defenseman in the league points-wise, so at the very least you are getting top 4 offensive numbers, and a decent size/skating ability player.

Quincey was bad with us, but the potential is there for him to be a top pairing guy, don't forget he's still only 26, and has had a top .54 ppg(top 30) season in 70 games which was 08-09 with similar numbers to Letang, Burns, Edler and Pitkanen.

I definitely see your point with Quincey, but he has to establish himself as a top-four player in Detroit and his performance in his return didn't leave me with much confidence going forward. I think a full season with the team will likely benefit Quincey, but I honestly don't see his ceiling being a top-pairing defenseman. He's certainly capable offensively of putting up numbers, though I haven't seen a whole lot from him in his own end that supports playing big minutes against an opponent's top line.

I thought Quincey and White especially were both brutal in the Nashville series. I have a lot more faith in Ericsson to be reliable this season than either of those two. The problem right now is the Red Wings don't have enough Ericsson's on defense, as much dismay as that may cause certain people. Bouwmeester doesn't really fit the category of defensive d-man either, but he at least has experience in a top-paring role. If Quincey is indeed going to take on more minutes (which seems like a foregone conclusion) he also needs to sharply cut down on taking bad penalties.

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Guest Crymson

He's finished + only ONCE in his career, and last year finished -21. How can anybody with those kind of stats be considered "a top defenseman".

He's not an elite defenseman. Flames fans protest otherwise these days; it's funny, given that they usually spend time whining about him instead.

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I don't think this whole debate is as irrelivant or stupid as some have said. Of all the hair brained, half cocked ideas thrown around here I finally think this one may make sense. If your not going to land a dominant #1, what's wrong with stacking your team with #2 through 6's ? His salary is high, not nearly as much after the last month has played out. Were not eating all the cap room, especially depending on what you may subtract. For what he has produced compaired to what his potential on our team could be, I'll be optimistic and predict slightly higher than his average #'s with relative dependablity thrown in. Two years is perfect to see what you've got, his age and the point he is in his career are plusses. The bigger issue than his price now is what it could go to. Let's say between camp and Oct./Nov. one of our top 6 D goes down for part/most/all of the season (or any other team's). His trade value gets REALLY stupid then. Right now brings the most sane market value, if you want to call it that. I'd be more comfortable with better depth on defence than all of our depth up front.

Which brings me to the price we'd have to pay. I won't advocate selling the farm, especially for Bouwmeester, but I honestly belive it's about time for this organization to roll the dice a bit. To pull from another thread, managment has gotten too comfortable. When was the last time we've done something thats raised any eyebrows? It seems like we are the place where you come, play, grow old and retire. Players are just as human as anyone, it's about time this team got a wake up call. Nothing stupid here, but it take's something to get something and the right move could benefit this club. With managment as calculated and stoic as ours it wouldn't take a blockbuster trade to open some eyes. The departures of some of the players on the D opens things up for other guys to bring their game up, giving them a chance to set their place in the lineup, can you say incentive.

A calculated risk is still a risk, but it's seems like forever since this team has taken one.

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Guest The Axe

Pass on this one. Not worth the scratch. If we all felt like the team would go from. 500 to. 600, im sure we'd be saying different things.

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Bouwmeester is not an elite defenseman. He can eat minutes and he's durable. Those are his main strengths. He's below-average offensively and average defensively. The team can absolutely afford to be without him, especially given that the current market will vastly inflate his price.

You are not going to find a replacement for Lidstrom anywhere you look, you need to find the right bits and pieces here and there, and try to put something together that will be better than the individuals. I think the qualities you listed is a perfect fit paired with Kronwall for example. I think a deal could be made that will benefit both teams.

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Guest Crymson

A trade for Bouwmeester will necessitate a defenseman (one who is not Kindl) going the other way along with a good forward. Swapping one defenseman for a marginally better one and losing scoring in the process (plus probably a draft pick also) will not improve the team.

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A trade for Bouwmeester will necessitate a defenseman (one who is not Kindl) going the other way along with a good forward. Swapping one defenseman for a marginally better one and losing scoring in the process (plus probably a draft pick also) will not improve the team.

There are all sorts of possibilities. Holland could involve a third team if Calgary indeed insists to get a defensman in return. I stand by my belief that a deal can be made for Bouwmeester and still improve this team.

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I don't think this whole debate is as irrelivant or stupid as some have said. Of all the hair brained, half cocked ideas thrown around here I finally think this one may make sense. If your not going to land a dominant #1, what's wrong with stacking your team with #2 through 6's ? His salary is high, not nearly as much after the last month has played out. Were not eating all the cap room, especially depending on what you may subtract. For what he has produced compaired to what his potential on our team could be, I'll be optimistic and predict slightly higher than his average #'s with relative dependablity thrown in. Two years is perfect to see what you've got, his age and the point he is in his career are plusses. The bigger issue than his price now is what it could go to. Let's say between camp and Oct./Nov. one of our top 6 D goes down for part/most/all of the season (or any other team's). His trade value gets REALLY stupid then. Right now brings the most sane market value, if you want to call it that. I'd be more comfortable with better depth on defence than all of our depth up front.

Which brings me to the price we'd have to pay. I won't advocate selling the farm, especially for Bouwmeester, but I honestly belive it's about time for this organization to roll the dice a bit. To pull from another thread, managment has gotten too comfortable. When was the last time we've done something thats raised any eyebrows? It seems like we are the place where you come, play, grow old and retire. Players are just as human as anyone, it's about time this team got a wake up call. Nothing stupid here, but it take's something to get something and the right move could benefit this club. With managment as calculated and stoic as ours it wouldn't take a blockbuster trade to open some eyes. The departures of some of the players on the D opens things up for other guys to bring their game up, giving them a chance to set their place in the lineup, can you say incentive.

A calculated risk is still a risk, but it's seems like forever since this team has taken one.

And in hindsight, Robert Lang was not worth Tomas Fleischmann and whatever else was in our last risk/reward trade.

This year is a youth tryout and to see how far our depth can go.

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i think the flames could handle not getting a dman back if they got a top end forward. unfortunately the wings cant afford to send one of those anyways. and i dont think calgary would really be interested in forward prospects, even a guy thats close like nyquist. they have continually shown they aren't willing to rebuild, so i think they want some sort of roster ready guy back. they have always been weak up the middle so i would have to think they would want something like filppula straight up. personally i dont think anyone is interested in that from our end.

though i wonder if they would be interested in ericsson + picks/prospects? they at least would get them an nhl guy back. if they plan on wideman/giordano as their top pair, ericsson could slot in on the 2nd or 3rd pair. in that situation, i think calgary could stomach supplementing with prospects and picks. and for us, since they are getting a roster player, the additional assets might not have to be so top end.

what do you guys think about ericsson going? i know some already think ericsson is better than bouwmeester, but maybe you rational guys can keep the discussion going!

(personally, i think it would be about the best deal to make both teams happy, but not sure if i would like it. we would have a tough time on the pk without stuart and ericsson.)

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Guest Hatethedrake!

The more I think about it the more I don't want JBO here. The 6.68 mil a year salary is just not worth it. I know he only has 2 years left on his deal but I'd sooner sign a guy like Kubina or Roszival to a 1 year deal and keep the Cap space for next summer so we can take a run at Getzlaf, Perry or Edler.

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And in hindsight, Robert Lang was not worth Tomas Fleischmann and whatever else was in our last risk/reward trade.

This year is a youth tryout and to see how far our depth can go.

Agree about Lang. But there isn't any difference between doing nothing and being wrong and doing something and being wrong. Sometime Hollands moves don't work out, but rarely does he really blow it out his ass.

Agree 100% this year is about youth. I firmly belive the "over ripe" way bringing guys up needs to be scaled back.

"I'd be more comfortable with better depth on defence than all of our depth up front."

I just feel better depth on the blue line gives us a better shot of staying in the playoffs. Not for the sake of the streak but for the opportunity to make sure the youth gets playoff experince as well.

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Agree about Lang. But there isn't any difference between doing nothing and being wrong and doing something and being wrong. Sometime Hollands moves don't work out, but rarely does he really blow it out his ass.

I disagree. I'd rather have a active GM trying to improve than one keeping status quo on a team not winning.

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I disagree. I'd rather have a active GM trying to improve than one keeping status quo on a team not winning.

I agree, and maybe misspoke, but that was my point. I too want him to try to improve the team instead of standing pat, which in most cases is akin to going backwards.

Edited by whitewolf406

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Guest The Axe

I agree, and maybe misspoke, but that was my point. I too want him to try to improve the team instead of standing pat, which in most cases is akin to going backwards.

Yup. The Wings got worse this offseason. You can say "we had to lose lidstrom at some point", but did we have to keep Bertuzzi and Quincey & sign Samuelsson and Tootoo? I can think of better things to do for 10 mil per season. Suter being the first.

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Yup. The Wings got worse this offseason. You can say "we had to lose lidstrom at some point", but did we have to keep Bertuzzi and Quincey & sign Samuelsson and Tootoo? I can think of better things to do for 10 mil per season. Suter being the first.

You're griping over things that were out of their hands. Suter had us as #2 on his list and ultimately decided to go play closer to home and with his buddy. He was already overpaid, it would have been asinine for Holland to try and overbid for him (WASTE OF MONEY). He signed Samuelsson to essentially replace Hudler, which is fine by me. At least Sammy will shoot more often and not be scared to do so. Sammy=40-50 points. Quincey was a necessary move, considering we lost out on Suter and the pickings after him were slim. And no, giving 4.6 million to Garrison for six years was not the answer (he also went home). You cannot judge Quincey on his "handful" of games last season. He'll come out much better with a full season here (his play in LA/COL are proof that he is better than what we saw). Tootoo, while questionable, I think adds a dimension to this team that has been lacking since Drake. He'll add some snarl to the bottom six and will pair well with Abdelkader. Yes, he was benched toward the end of last season, but he also put up 30 points playing minimal time last season. Again, the choices for agitators that can still play decent hockey were slim. Bertuzzi has played well for this team since coming here. He adapted his style to be more defensively responsible and makes a solid 3rd line winger with size. Is he streaky? Yes, but he is also able to have hot streaks and play on the top two lines when needed. He did have decent chemistry with Datsyuk. And that backhand... you can't beat that backhand.

A lot of whiners still hanging around, trying to stir up some panic, when I just see some adversity and truly believe the team, as is, will compete and make the playoffs. Have a little pride in your team, and don't start crying the second things don't go "your" way.

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Guest The Axe

Would you rather have those guys at 10 mil per or Suter? Thats all i want to know.

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Would you rather have those guys at 10 mil per or Suter? Thats all i want to know.

what does that matter? you're setting up a straw man argument. it wasn't as if holland had to choose between the two. we have enough cap space we could have offered suter 10. the reason we didnt is because they made their top offer that they felt was fair and wouldnt handcuff them with the cap in the future. it unfortunately wasn't enough. maybe in a non-cap world we would have buckled and given suter as much as he wanted. heck maybe then we would have thrown just as much at parise and got him too.

bottom line is its not guys like tootoo and bertuzzi that caused us to lose out on suter

edit: also, one thing i have brought up a few times while talking about bouwmeester is that he was the most coveted FA of his class 3 years ago. and look where his stock is now. in 3 years, we may be patting ourselves on the back that we aren't saddled with a bad contract for someone that ended up under-performing. i think suter will look a lot different in minnesota without weber and rinne...

Edited by dobbles

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what does that matter? you're setting up a straw man argument. it wasn't as if holland had to choose between the two. we have enough cap space we could have offered suter 10. the reason we didnt is because they made their top offer that they felt was fair and wouldnt handcuff them with the cap in the future. it unfortunately wasn't enough. maybe in a non-cap world we would have buckled and given suter as much as he wanted. heck maybe then we would have thrown just as much at parise and got him too.

bottom line is its not guys like tootoo and bertuzzi that caused us to lose out on suter

edit: also, one thing i have brought up a few times while talking about bouwmeester is that he was the most coveted FA of his class 3 years ago. and look where his stock is now. in 3 years, we may be patting ourselves on the back that we aren't saddled with a bad contract for someone that ended up under-performing. i think suter will look a lot different in minnesota without weber and rinne...

Get back to work you damn slacker! :D

Honestly the thing the wings need to get and keep is some grit. Helm sparks the third line with his Jetaway speed and it hasn't helped that the 4th line has been a mishmash of spare parts and GR kids. We need to get some good chemistry and balance in the first 2 lines, a 3rd line of energy guys, and a 4th line of grit.

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