351 replies to this topic

[Carman]

I think Bouwmeester is an incredible athlete who is lacking in hockey sense and too soft to ever be a top NHL defenseman

He's soft, but hockey sense I disagree with. He's very rarely out of posistion, has a good stick with size, good decision making, great passes, and probably one of the best skating defenseman in the league. He made Team Canada for a reason, Sutter(s) don't have a great track record of flourishing defenseman either.

There's no doubt he's soft, and overpaid. But he's still an above average stay at home, 10 goal, 20+ minute defenseman. The concern I have with bouwmeester is going to be what we'd have to give up, and frankly he's not worth anything close to what's being reported.

[Hey man nice shot!]

He's soft, but hockey sense I disagree with. He's very rarely out of posistion, has a good stick with size, good decision making, great passes, and probably one of the best skating defenseman in the league. He made Team Canada for a reason, Sutter(s) don't have a great track record of flourishing defenseman either.

There's no doubt he's soft, and overpaid. But he's still an above average stay at home, 10 goal, 20+ minute defenseman. The concern I have with bouwmeester is going to be what we'd have to give up, and frankly he's not worth anything close to what's being reported.

I think JBo would be great on our team...but only if JF will trade him for something we can afford to lose.

[stevkrause]

I think JBo would be great on our team...but only if JF will trade him for something we can afford to lose.

Dead on.

[Dabura]

I think JBo would be great on our team...but only if JF will trade him for something we can afford to lose.

This goes for pretty much any potential trade in the history or forever. It's basically a truism.

That said, I agree.

[RyanBarnes!]

I think JBo would be great on our team...but only if JF will trade him for something we can afford to lose.

But can we afford not to add Bouwmeester? I think a defenseman that can log 20+ minutes is worth more to Detroit right now than any realistic package going the other way.

[Crymson]

But can we afford not to add Bouwmeester? I think a defenseman that can log 20+ minutes is worth more to Detroit right now than any realistic package going the other way.

Bouwmeester is not an elite defenseman. He can eat minutes and he's durable. Those are his main strengths. He's below-average offensively and average defensively. The team can absolutely afford to be without him, especially given that the current market will vastly inflate his price.

I think JBo would be great on our team...but only if JF will trade him for something we can afford to lose.

... and he won't. He'll trade Bouwmeester for a forward and another quality defenseman. Bouwmeester is NOT worth that.

[dobbles]

Bouwmeester is not an elite defenseman. He can eat minutes and he's durable. Those are his main strengths. He's below-average offensively and average defensively. The team can absolutely afford to be without him, especially given that the current market will vastly inflate his price.

... and he won't. He'll trade Bouwmeester for a forward and another quality defenseman. Bouwmeester is NOT worth that.

im sorry but you are just wrong.

in the first 4 seasons after the lockout with florida, he was 23rd, 24th, 24th, and 21st in defenseman scoring. consistently being in the top 25 in the league in scoring is NOT below average.

sure he has had lower totals with calgary, but who doesnt? just for transparencies sake, he dropped to 55, 69, and 45 with them.

in his 7 seasons since the lockout, he was in the top 6 in scoring for his team 5 of those years. another year he was 8th. the only year he wasnt one of his teams top scorers was 10-11.


i am not saying he will be our savior, replace lidstrom, or even get traded. but people are undervaluing him. 3 summers ago he was the ryan suter of his free agent class before calgary dealt for his rights just before july 1st.

[Crymson]

im sorry but you are just wrong.

in the first 4 seasons after the lockout with florida, he was 23rd, 24th, 24th, and 21st in defenseman scoring. consistently being in the top 25 in the league in scoring is NOT below average.

sure he has had lower totals with calgary, but who doesnt? just for transparencies sake, he dropped to 55, 69, and 45 with them.

in his 7 seasons since the lockout, he was in the top 6 in scoring for his team 5 of those years. another year he was 8th. the only year he wasnt one of his teams top scorers was 10-11.


i am not saying he will be our savior, replace lidstrom, or even get traded. but people are undervaluing him. 3 summers ago he was the ryan suter of his free agent class before calgary dealt for his rights just before july 1st.

Oh, you don't like how I put that? OK, I'll put it this way: he's far below what his production should be for his salary and for what the Wings would need to put out in order to receive him. His numbers in Florida are irrelevant. How sought-after he was when his previous contract ended is irrelevant. What is important is the present stage of his career, and in this present stage of his career he has been unable to put up the offensive numbers expected of him in Calgary. He has, as such, been considered a dud there. His acquisition was meant to make Phaneuf expendable, and in this he has thus far been a failed project.

And whose numbers should improve when they go to Calgary, you ask? Certainly the numbers of someone going from a bottom feeder to a quasi-contender should at least remain consistent even if they don't rise.

[Johnz96]

im sorry but you are just wrong.

in the first 4 seasons after the lockout with florida, he was 23rd, 24th, 24th, and 21st in defenseman scoring. consistently being in the top 25 in the league in scoring is NOT below average.

sure he has had lower totals with calgary, but who doesnt? just for transparencies sake, he dropped to 55, 69, and 45 with them.

in his 7 seasons since the lockout, he was in the top 6 in scoring for his team 5 of those years. another year he was 8th. the only year he wasnt one of his teams top scorers was 10-11.


i am not saying he will be our savior, replace lidstrom, or even get traded. but people are undervaluing him. 3 summers ago he was the ryan suter of his free agent class before calgary dealt for his rights just before july 1st.

He always played over 26 mins a game on the top PP unit and on the ice in all scoring situations in Florida, he's been getting a little less ice-time with the Flames and about a minute less PP time.
He is very skilled, one of the best skaters in the NHL and has great reach an amazing physical specimen but he is soft,doesn't hit and doesn't like getting hit and makes mistakes to avoid getting hit, not much of a compete level, not very good positionally, is error prone and worth less than half of his cap hit

Edited by Johnz96, 05 August 2012 - 05:35 PM.

[dobbles]

Oh, you don't like how I put that? OK, I'll put it this way: he's far below what his production should be for his salary and for what the Wings would need to put out in order to receive him. His numbers in Florida are irrelevant. How sought-after he was when his previous contract ended is irrelevant. What is important is the present stage of his career, and in this present stage of his career he has been unable to put up the offensive numbers expected of him in Calgary. He has, as such, been considered a dud there. His acquisition was meant to make Phaneuf expendable, and in this he has thus far been a failed project.

And whose numbers should improve when they go to Calgary, you ask? Certainly the numbers of someone going from a bottom feeder to a quasi-contender should at least remain consistent even if they don't rise.

sure he is overpaid. sure he has not lived up to the hype in calgary. but answer me these:

what defenders on our roster are better than bouwmeester?
what other top pairing defenders are realistically available?

to me the answers to those question are kronwall and probably no one.

bouwmeester to me is a top pairing guy. sure everyone likes to complain that all he does is eat minutes. but when he is on the ice, so is the opponents top line. aside from this past year, he has had a decent plus minus, which means when he is on against those top lines, its an even matchup. to me thats saying something considering the bad teams he has played on. and while calgary is a quasi contender, do you have any idea who he has played with? this past year it was chris butler. i would imagine most have never really heard of him. he played a year with regehr who is at least decent, and his first year in calgary was with giordano who at the time was a nobody. it was the good year they had together that catapulted him into top 4 status.

and if you really think what happened in florida is irrelevant, this conversation has zero value. those years provide context into what he is capable of. and if you can't recognize that, you have no interest in hearing anyones opinion but your own. everyone loves to talk about how players benefited over the years from playing with lidstrom; that fact gave context to the numbers players put up. its the same situation here.

bottom line is that jay bouwmeester has spent the last 7 years playing top pairing minutes, usually putting up top end offensive numbers, and playing well enough defensively that he has had solid plus/minus numbers when he is normally without top quality linemates.

[Johnz96]

sure he is overpaid. sure he has not lived up to the hype in calgary. but answer me these:

what defenders on our roster are better than bouwmeester?
what other top pairing defenders are realistically available?

to me the answers to those question are kronwall and probably no one.

bouwmeester to me is a top pairing guy. sure everyone likes to complain that all he does is eat minutes. but when he is on the ice, so is the opponents top line. aside from this past year, he has had a decent plus minus, which means when he is on against those top lines, its an even matchup. to me thats saying something considering the bad teams he has played on. and while calgary is a quasi contender, do you have any idea who he has played with? this past year it was chris butler. i would imagine most have never really heard of him. he played a year with regehr who is at least decent, and his first year in calgary was with giordano who at the time was a nobody. it was the good year they had together that catapulted him into top 4 status.

and if you really think what happened in florida is irrelevant, this conversation has zero value. those years provide context into what he is capable of. and if you can't recognize that, you have no interest in hearing anyones opinion but your own. everyone loves to talk about how players benefited over the years from playing with lidstrom; that fact gave context to the numbers players put up. its the same situation here.

bottom line is that jay bouwmeester has spent the last 7 years playing top pairing minutes, usually putting up top end offensive numbers, and playing well enough defensively that he has had solid plus/minus numbers when he is normally without top quality linemates.

Kronwall, Quincey, and Ericsson are better
Smith and Kindl might be
Solid +/-??? He was a -21 last year and is -54 in his career

[F.Michael]

Kronwall, Quincey, and Ericsson are better
Smith and Kindl might be
Solid +/-??? He was a -21 last year and is -54 in his career

Kronwall I can agree with, but Quincey, and Ericsson - no way.

As Dobbles rightfully pointed out - JBo plays top pairing minutes; plays against the other teams top line; has had "so-so" defense partners in the past few years; he's on a rather "so-so" Flames.

The guy has a ton of skill, but isn't physical enough, nor generates enough offense to meet the critics high expectations courtesy of his bloated contract.

With all that said - his 2 years left isn't as big of a anchor on the shoulders of Holland as some would think, and he does have the athletic prowess to play the puck possession game that Detroit will most likely keep playing for some time.

EDIT - it's been beaten to death, but the whole +/- stat may not always indicate the true qualities a certain player could bring to any NHL franchise.

Edited by F.Michael, 06 August 2012 - 05:33 AM.

[Nightfall]

Bouwmeester is one of those defensemen who you wish you could get more out of. When he had his best season before he signed with Calgary, he got a great payday from the Flames. Now, the Flames are looking to unload him and with his salary, he is good trade bait. I still think that our young guns have more upside that Bouwmeester. Yes, they will make mistakes, but I don't think that Bouwmeester is the answer. He is good, but not a great or elite defenseman. IMHO, he isn't worth the trade.

[dobbles]

Kronwall, Quincey, and Ericsson are better
Smith and Kindl might be
Solid +/-??? He was a -21 last year and is -54 in his career

wow, i really shouldnt even respond to this as it is just ridiculous to imply that jonathon ericsson is better than jay bouwmeester... and kindl MIGHT be? i love kindl and hope he takes a huge step, but all he is right now is a first round dud with 17 career points. i am all about differing opinions. if someone wants to make an argument for white or quincey thats one thing. but jakub kindl? either you have very little grasp of hockey or are just trolling. either way, it serves no purpose to the discussion.

but i did want to clarify the plus/minus thing. in my first post, i noted that this past season it was terrible, and when i said it was decent i was talking about since the lockout. just about all the numbers i gave was since the lockout which i believe is representative of his game. in those 7 years, he is a combined -10. thats not too bad considering the teams he played on.

[dirtydangles]

This is one trade that we should most definitely not be overpaying on. JBo is solid but not elite and not worth overpayment. Id be happy to have him if it doesnt hurt the team bu acquiring him. Our top assets should only be used to acquire elite players as we dont exactly have a plethora of tradeable assets right now.

[Johnz96]

wow, i really shouldnt even respond to this as it is just ridiculous to imply that jonathon ericsson is better than jay bouwmeester... and kindl MIGHT be? i love kindl and hope he takes a huge step, but all he is right now is a first round dud with 17 career points. i am all about differing opinions. if someone wants to make an argument for white or quincey thats one thing. but jakub kindl? either you have very little grasp of hockey or are just trolling. either way, it serves no purpose to the discussion.

but i did want to clarify the plus/minus thing. in my first post, i noted that this past season it was terrible, and when i said it was decent i was talking about since the lockout. just about all the numbers i gave was since the lockout which i believe is representative of his game. in those 7 years, he is a combined -10. thats not too bad considering the teams he played on.

I don't think it's a coincidence that the Flames haven't made the playoffs since he's been there and that the Panthers have after he left

[dobbles]

I don't think it's a coincidence that the Flames haven't made the playoffs since he's been there and that the Panthers have after he left

i dont think its a coincidence you had to totally change the point...

its just luck. the reason the panthers didnt deal him at the deadline the year he left was because they were so close to making the playoffs. for several years they have been one of those young up and coming teams. but it really was tallon bringing in the variety of free agents the last year or two that allowed them to develop. so its not as if he was holding them back from making it while he was there. as i stated before, his numbers there were top notch in the 4 years after the lockout.

conversely, calgary has been a team on the decline since their cup run in 04. they have never really been a legit contender and havent won a playoff series since the lockout regardless of whether they had bouwmeester. i still readily admit that bouwmeester has been disappointing for them, but to imply its his fault the flames missed the playoffs and the panthers made it, well thats as silly as suggested jakub kindl is as good as jay bouwmeester...

keep going though, your absurdities are fun to read! i can't wait to see what your next totally unrelated counter point will be!

Edited by dobbles, 06 August 2012 - 12:10 PM.

[Johnz96]

i dont think its a coincidence you had to totally change the point...

its just luck. the reason the panthers didnt deal him at the deadline the year he left was because they were so close to making the playoffs. for several years they have been one of those young up and coming teams. but it really was tallon bringing in the variety of free agents the last year or two that allowed them to develop. so its not as if he was holding them back from making it while he was there. as i stated before, his numbers there were top notch in the 4 years after the lockout.

conversely, calgary has been a team on the decline since their cup run in 04. they have never really been a legit contender and havent won a playoff series since the lockout regardless of whether they had bouwmeester. i still readily admit that bouwmeester has been disappointing for them, but to imply its his fault the flames missed the playoffs and the panthers made it, well thats as silly as suggested jakub kindl is as good as jay bouwmeester...

keep going though, your absurdities are fun to read! i can't wait to see what your next totally unrelated counter point will be!

That wasn't changing the point.
I notice that you are a Calgary Flame. Trying to convince us we should trade for him?
A defenseman who screws up a lot because he avoids contact is a liability no matter how fast, big and skilled he is and would be even more of a liability in the playoffs. I think the Flames would have made the playoffs with Phaneuf instead of Bouwmeester.

Just in case you missed this earlier in the thread

Edited by Johnz96, 06 August 2012 - 01:21 PM.

[dobbles]

That wasn't changing the point.
I notice that you are a Calgary Flame. Trying to convince us we should trade for him?
A defenseman who screws up a lot because he avoids contact is a liability no matter how fast, big and skilled he is and would be even more of a liability in the playoffs. I think the Flames would have made the playoffs with Phaneuf instead of Bouwmeester.

Just in case you missed this earlier in the thread

once again changing the point! now its about what team i am a fan of!!! just so you know, thats a quad cities flames logo, a now defunct ahl team that i happened to be a season ticket holder for because i lived in illinois. thats actually one of the only reasons i have a strong opinion about bouwmeester because calgary is a team i had an interest in previously. i was never a fan per say, but i followed guys like eric nystrom, brandon prust, dustin boyd, adam pardy, and warren peters as they worked their way into the league. its also a reason i have strong opinions on guys like ericsson, howard, quincey, leino, helm, abdelkader, etc. because i got to see them live from the front row 8-10 times a year for 2 seasons. not that it matters, but i have been a fan of the wings since learning about hockey in the early 90's. (the last couple years of the norris division)

and peca is a blowhard. i value him as an analyst as much as i value eklund for personnel moves... sure he played the game so he has some credibility, but he comes off more like a guy thats butt-hurt than anything else.

its no secret that bouwmeester isnt physical. but neither was lidstrom. and while he certainly isnt as skilled as nick was, he would be a pretty decent fill in. and as i have stated before, he is probably the only one close to being available as a top pairing guy.

and i doubt the flames would have made the playoffs either way. its not like phaneuf has exactly been a success in toronto either. thankfully for the leafs, they only gave up spare parts for dion, or else i am sure he would be resented just as much as bouwmeester is in calgary.

[GoWings1905]

Kronwall, Quincey, and Ericsson are better
Smith and Kindl might be
Solid +/-??? He was a -21 last year and is -54 in his career

I get the arguments for not wanting Bouwmeester, but this is just silly. He's overpaid, hasn't been productive offensively and will likely cost a lot, but he's way better than everyone on that list with the exception of Kronwall. I have a lot of hope and confidence in Smith turning out to be very good, but Bouwmeester has already established a pretty solid NHL career. Kindl has hardly shown any development, Quincey/Ericsson have been mostly third pairing guys that are going to get tested especially this season in a much larger role. Bouwmeester has played top-pairing minutes for a long time.

The Red Wings defense would be much better having Bouwmeester around next season. It's just a matter of whether the asking price is at all reasonable, which I highly doubt to be the case.

Edited by GoWings1905, 06 August 2012 - 05:07 PM.