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Guest blueadams

Why is it Doan OR Semin? Why not both?

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Every informed opinion I've been reading about the remainder of our off-season has said this - #1) We're waiting for Doan to make his decision. If we can't get him, then we'll consider signing Semin. #2) We're still looking to add a top-six defenseman, most likely through trade.

My question is this. And I know it's probably been discussed several times over in other threads. But this is so perplexing to me that I think it deserves its own thread. I understand it so little, that I feel it needs to be discussed as a seperate issue.

...There is about 15mil left in cap space (once we send our extra forwards to gr). Is someone trying to tell me that 15 mil isn't enough to sign Doan, Semin and top-six defenseman. Even if Doan and Semin both reach the high-end, around 6 mil each, that still leaves 3 mil to sign a top six defenseman, and that should be more than enough. It's not like either Doan or Semin is going to command a contract much longer than two years anyways? It's not like signing either is going to hurt us long-term? And it's not like Pav and Hank have that many prime years left in them either? Where in the hell are we going to be once Pav can't carry this squad?

The time to try to win it all is now. Not next year. Not in two years. Pav is THIRTY-FOUR years old. Truth be told, when he's out of the lineup, we're one of the worst team's in hockey. How much longer is he going to be able to carry us? The time to win is now - - - and this lineup, below, could very well win it all. Look at that depth. Six legitimate top six forwards. More than enough skill, grit and defense. A third line of Helm, Nyquist and Brunner. Incredible speed. Great defense. Great energy. And serious scoring ability. A fourth line consisting of players the calliber of Samuelsson and Bertuzzi. A very, very solid goalie when healthy, just entering his prime. And our defense isn't going to be as good as it has been, but if we're able to add just a decent player, this could most definitely be a squad with the ability to win it all.

I guess I just don't get what in the hell Holland is waiting for!? Does he want to wait until Pav is 36 or 37 before he decides to take a real run at the cup?

CAPGEEK.COM USER GENERATED ROSTER

My Custom Lineup

FORWARDS

Johan Franzen ($3.955m) / Pavel Datsyuk ($6.700m) / Alexander Semin ($5.000m)

Valtteri Filppula ($3.000m) / Henrik Zetterberg ($6.083m) / Shane Doan ($5.000m)

Gustav Nyquist ($0.875m) / Darren Helm ($2.125m) / Damien Brunner ($1.350m)

Todd Bertuzzi ($2.075m) / Justin Abdelkader ($0.866m) / Mikael Samuelsson ($3.000m)

Danny Cleary ($2.800m) / Jordin Tootoo ($1.900m) /

DEFENSEMEN

Niklas Kronwall ($4.750m) / Ian White ($2.875m)

Kyle Quincey ($3.775m) / Jonathan Ericsson ($3.250m)

Brendan Smith ($0.875m) / Defenseman ? ($5.000m)

Jakub Kindl ($0.883m) /

GOALTENDERS

Jimmy Howard ($2.250m)

Jonas Gustavsson ($1.500m)

------

CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)

(these totals are compiled without the bonus cushion)

SALARY CAP: $70,200,000; CAP PAYROLL: $69,887,462; BONUSES: $462,500

CAP SPACE (23-man roster): $312,538

Edited by blueadams

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I'm sure Valtteri Filppula ($3.000m) & Jimmy Howard ($2.250m) will want to make more than that next year. If we spend right to the cap we wont be able to afford to have them return.

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Pav's age has no bearing on Hollands job. He isn't building the team to try and win for one player, his job is to keep the team competitve long term.

I have a bunch of questions about your line-up there,

1. Do you really think Nyquist and Brunner are going to get roster spots while Cleary and Tootoo sit?

2. What happened to Miller, Eaves, Emmerton, Mursak?

3. How do you suppose we get Doan or Semin to take a salary as low as 5 million when both are reportedly getting better offers already? Lifetime deals maybe?

4. Signing Doan or Semin to deals at that low of a cost will mean long term deals, what do we do next year when Flip, Howard, Brunner and White all need to be re-signed?

5. What do we do if we get into injury trouble, (Specifically a rash of short-term injuries), we won't have enough space to make a call up.

6. What do we do if the cap is lowered in CBA negotiations?

Those are enough reasons why its extremely unlikely we sign both. We should be ecstatic with 1 of them and a defenceman.

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Every informed opinion I've been reading about the remainder of our off-season has said this - #1) We're waiting for Doan to make his decision. If we can't get him, then we'll consider signing Semin. #2) We're still looking to add a top-six defenseman, most likely through trade.

My question is this. And I know it's probably been discussed several times over in other threads. But this is so perplexing to me that I think it deserves its own thread. I understand it so little, that I feel it needs to be discussed as a seperate issue.

...There is about 15mil left in cap space (once we send our extra forwards to gr). Is someone trying to tell me that 15 mil isn't enough to sign Doan, Semin and top-six defenseman. Even if Doan and Semin both reach the high-end, around 6 mil each, that still leaves 3 mil to sign a top six defenseman, and that should be more than enough. It's not like either Doan or Semin is going to command a contract much longer than two years anyways? It's not like signing either is going to hurt us long-term? And it's not like Pav and Hank have that many prime years left in them either? Where in the hell are we going to be once Pav can't carry this squad?

The time to try to win it all is now. Not next year. Not in two years. Pav is THIRTY-FOUR years old. Truth be told, when he's out of the lineup, we're one of the worst team's in hockey. How much longer is he going to be able to carry us? The time to win is now - - - and this lineup, below, could very well win it all. Look at that depth. Six legitimate top six forwards. More than enough skill, grit and defense. A third line of Helm, Nyquist and Brunner. Incredible speed. Great defense. Great energy. And serious scoring ability. A fourth line consisting of players the calliber of Samuelsson and Bertuzzi. A very, very solid goalie when healthy, just entering his prime. And our defense isn't going to be as good as it has been, but if we're able to add just a decent player, this could most definitely be a squad with the ability to win it all.

I guess I just don't get what in the hell Holland is waiting for!? Does he want to wait until Pav is 36 or 37 before he decides to take a real run at the cup?

CAPGEEK.COM USER GENERATED ROSTER

My Custom Lineup

FORWARDS

Johan Franzen ($3.955m) / Pavel Datsyuk ($6.700m) / Alexander Semin ($5.000m)

Valtteri Filppula ($3.000m) / Henrik Zetterberg ($6.083m) / Shane Doan ($5.000m)

Gustav Nyquist ($0.875m) / Darren Helm ($2.125m) / Damien Brunner ($1.350m)

Todd Bertuzzi ($2.075m) / Justin Abdelkader ($0.866m) / Mikael Samuelsson ($3.000m)

Danny Cleary ($2.800m) / Jordin Tootoo ($1.900m) /

DEFENSEMEN

Niklas Kronwall ($4.750m) / Ian White ($2.875m)

Kyle Quincey ($3.775m) / Jonathan Ericsson ($3.250m)

Brendan Smith ($0.875m) / Defenseman ? ($5.000m)

Jakub Kindl ($0.883m) /

GOALTENDERS

Jimmy Howard ($2.250m)

Jonas Gustavsson ($1.500m)

------

CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)

(these totals are compiled without the bonus cushion)

SALARY CAP: $70,200,000; CAP PAYROLL: $69,887,462; BONUSES: $462,500

CAP SPACE (23-man roster): $312,538

Eaves isn't on the team but Brunner is? I can't see that happening. Bert and Sammy on the 4th line? Cleary and Tootoo scratches? I don't see that either.

Who is the 5 mil dman? Yandle. Flip, Nyquist and a 1st would likely have to be going to Phoenix. Doan is staying in Phoenix unless some kind of miracle happens. Semin seems to want too much money. I don't know what Kenny's plan is right now. I don't think this roster is complete until October.

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Eaves isn't on the team but Brunner is? I can't see that happening. Bert and Sammy on the 4th line? Cleary and Tootoo scratches? I don't see that either.

Who is the 5 mil dman? Yandle. Flip, Nyquist and a 1st would likely have to be going to Phoenix. Doan is staying in Phoenix unless some kind of miracle happens. Semin seems to want too much money. I don't know what Kenny's plan is right now. I don't think this roster is complete until October.

Babcock said that Brunner was going to start off in the top six. He didn't say that about Eaves, Sammy, Bert, Cleary or Tootoo. I personally think Nyquist is better than all those mentioned as well. And I don't know what defenseman. I just allocated some money for it. Doan and Semin seem to be our only hope right now, so Holland had better pull something if he wants us to be interesting this season.

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Pav's age has no bearing on Hollands job. He isn't building the team to try and win for one player, his job is to keep the team competitve long term.

I have a bunch of questions about your line-up there,

1. Do you really think Nyquist and Brunner are going to get roster spots while Cleary and Tootoo sit?

2. What happened to Miller, Eaves, Emmerton, Mursak?

3. How do you suppose we get Doan or Semin to take a salary as low as 5 million when both are reportedly getting better offers already? Lifetime deals maybe?

4. Signing Doan or Semin to deals at that low of a cost will mean long term deals, what do we do next year when Flip, Howard, Brunner and White all need to be re-signed?

5. What do we do if we get into injury trouble, (Specifically a rash of short-term injuries), we won't have enough space to make a call up.

6. What do we do if the cap is lowered in CBA negotiations?

Those are enough reasons why its extremely unlikely we sign both. We should be ecstatic with 1 of them and a defenceman.

Once Pav is done, barring any unforseen miracles, we are done. Period. Without him, we are awful. When he's gone, we will be awful - unless Holland gets off his ass and actually does something.

1) Tootoo sat against us in the playoffs. Holland gives him a ridiculous contract and now all of the sudden Babcock needs to pretend he's a good player? And would you really rather have Cleary in the lineup than Nyquist or Brunner?? Okay. Maybe that knee surgery turned him into a an average player.

2) 14 forward limit. Sent to gr through waivers. Maybe some will make it there. No big loss if they don't.

3) Fine, give them six mil each, allocate 3 mil for the unknown defender.

4) Sign them to short contracts.

5) Call up cheap prospects.

6) Same thing everyone else is gonna have to do.

Edited by blueadams

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Thing is... Holland has his eye on next FA market. He will get Doan if he can, and MAYBE Semin if he can't... but not both. He would rather have a chance to get Perry or Getzlaf than sign Semin.

An article by Kahn pointed out that a member of the Red Wings expressed dissatisfaction with Semin... if true, it seems likely that Datsuk is that player since he would really be the only one to have had significant time around him. If the big plug for Semin is that him and Datsyuk would have magic chemistry.... doesn't the whole prospect fall flat on it's face if Datsyuk isn't a fan of Semin? I know it is all speculation assumptions, but Kahn seems more credible than most.... something to think about.

Edited by RedWingsDad

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Once Pav is done, barring any unforseen miracles, we are done. Period. Without him, we are awful. When he's gone, we will be awful - unless Holland gets off his ass and actually does something.

1) Tootoo sat against us in the playoffs. Holland gives him a ridiculous contract and now all of the sudden Babcock needs to pretend he's a good player? And would you really rather have Cleary in the lineup than Nyquist or Brunner?? Okay. Maybe that knee surgery turned him into a an average player.

2) 14 forward limit. Sent to gr through waivers. Maybe some will make it there. No big loss if they don't.

3) Fine, give them six mil each, allocate 3 mil for the unknown defender.

4) Sign them to short contracts.

5) Call up cheap prospects.

6) Same thing everyone else is gonna have to do.

Just like we were going to be done when Yzerman retired...We may have a new superstar blossoming in Sweden right now. Our prospect pool is ranked among the best in the league despite drafting project players with huge upside over more certain NHL talent. Who knows what they will bring to the table, its not like we saw Datsyuk or Zetterberg coming beforehand.

Tootoo put up more pts last year than anyone in our bottom 6, he is EXACTLY what Babcock asked for this offseason, he is 100% going to be in our line-up on opening night. He'll have to play his way off the roster not onto it. Same with Cleary, Miller and Eaves.

Brunner hasn't played a single NHL game and Nyquist still has waiver exemptions left, both can be sent down without exposure to waivers so for them to even make the roster they'll have to outplay several players to get a roster spot.

Doan has reportedly been offered 7.5 a season and Semin made 6.7 last year and will want a raise if he's taking a short term deal. You can kiss and defenceman goodbye if we sign both.

We couldn't call up cheap prospects in the case of injuries as your roster leaves only 300k in space. That's less than the league minimum, Teams keep a 1 mil float for situations like that.

Z Winged Dangler likes this

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Once Pav is done, barring any unforseen miracles, we are done. Period. Without him, we are awful. When he's gone, we will be awful - unless Holland gets off his ass and actually does something.

This is why I think not signing players this off season is a good idea. Next year Getzlaf is available, and we'll need a C to replace Datsyuk.

Cause no team in the NHL carries 17 forwards.

Right, we have more than enough forwards.

Rick D likes this

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...Pav is THIRTY-FOUR years old. Truth be told, when he's out of the lineup, we're one of the worst team's in hockey.

I had to laugh at this.... I mean, really? Without Datsyuk we are one of the WORST teams in hockey? lol man... the things I read on the internet.

Edited by RedWingsDad

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This is why I think not signing players this off season is a good idea. Next year Getzlaf is available, and we'll need a C to replace Datsyuk.

Right, we have more than enough forwards.

Did I miss something?

Why is Datsyuk leaving after next year?

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Doan wants 4 years not 2. And hes likely looking at 5.5-6.5 a year given how thin FA market is and whoever the eastern conference team is that offered him 30 mill over 4 years.

That said, we get Doan and/or Semin and we instantly can afford to part ways with a decent forward to obtain a good dman via trade. This would also be the cap-friendly solution.

And when Pav leaves we wont be the worst team in hockey. Our next generation of forward prosepcts is deep and versatile. Im incredibly confident inwhat our systems going to spit out in the next half decade. (our defense on the other hand....)

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Perhaps it should have been both, however, it's going to end up neither. Minus one or two minor changes, your 2012-2013 Red Wings look pretty much exactly like they do right now.

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This is why I think not signing players this off season is a good idea. Next year Getzlaf is available, and we'll need a C to replace Datsyuk.

And what's to say we won't strike out again, just like this summer?

Banking on splashing next July - and, accordingly, doing nothing more this summer - should be a last-resort plan.

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Very negative board these days I'll say! Why not try to bring 'em both in? Let's spend some money to say F@ck you we aren't going anywhere thank you very much! Those two would put us over the frigging top. Get a crew in that dressing room like that then see what Babcock can get them to do.

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In all honesty, the only way Holland signs BOTH is if there is a trade that clears a few forwards out. As it stands, Mursak and Emmy are the two odd guys out and will waived/traded(after Abby is re-signed.) If Holland gets Doan and or Semin, that will push another forward out and that will be Miller or Eaves or both. I think if Holland makes a trade for a D man to clear up the forward log jam, then he may get both. I believe it will be either or, but not both. It may be neither. Like someone mentioned Tootoo WILL be in the lineup, as will Nyquist and Brunner and Sammy. By that thinking, it looks like Miller/Eaves will be the 13th/14th forwards anyhow. I think they both have earned NHL starting jobs, so if there is a trade, I think those two will be involved as well. I wouldn't doubt if Cleary is included in a trade either. He may not garner too much, but he would be a great leader for a young team. Maybe to an Edmonton or Winnipeg for a pick....

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And now it's neither Doan NOR Semin. Semin to Carolina, 1 yr, $7M, and per Aaron Ward on Twitter, the Wings are out of the chase for Doan because the asking price is too high. Sweeeet.

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And now it's neither Doan NOR Semin. Semin to Carolina, 1 yr, $7M, and per Aaron Ward on Twitter, the Wings are out of the chase for Doan because the asking price is too high. Sweeeet.

It's via twitter and solely based on the fact that there are "reports" that he has lucrative offers... Perhaps he'll end up liking the idea of ending his career in Detroit, a place that has never allowed him or his team to succeed in the playoffs the past few years. Sometimes, a guy may not go for the money in lieu of a more favorable situation. I believe Doan is the type of guy to do this... He did, afterall, just come off a 4.5 million contract, I'm sure he could have negotiated and received more money when that contract was signed without much of a problem.

I'm not holding my breath, but just saying.... sometimes we put wayyyy too much stock into what the internet tells us.

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