168 replies to this topic

[Ally]

If Fedorov had played in the NHL during the 80's, he'd have 2000 pts. Yzerman's stats are just the product of playing in a crappy defense time period. Are you going to tell me Bernie Nichols is better than Fedorov?

This is a joke, yes?

[haroldsnepsts]

Please stay on topic. I've had to remove several posts in this thread.

Discuss the content of the post, not the person making it.

Someone having an unpopular or minority opinion does not automatically make them a troll.


Keep attacking the person directly, no matter how minor, and I'm gonna to have to go all Shanaban on people.

[stevkrause]

I've found the block function to be fantastic on here... much easier to just filter people, than read their crap, if you think they're a troll anyway... If we all filtered these people and didn't give them the attention they crave, they'd most certainly go away... As the old saying goes, don't feed the troll...

Back to the topic on hand, as had already been touched on, if it even has to be discussed, than the answer is already there...

Edited by stevkrause, 29 July 2012 - 11:18 PM.

[Frk_You]

Don't think it will be retired but will be out of circulation like #16

[The Axe]

Sergei Fedorov and Jaromir Jagr were the best 2 all around forwards of the 90's, regular season and especially playoffs. The numbers are there. As soon as the Detroit brass and Fedorov make up, they can put his number in the rafters where it belongs.

[pondrocket]

My favourite player on the Wings in the 90s too. Such a shame it ended the way it did, because based upon every other criteria #91 deserves to be hanging from the rafters.

I know the Sergei haters bang on about his lack of effort in the regular season, but when it mattered - when it really mattered, in the playoffs, he always showed up

Yep, he was great to watch! Those were special days!!

[Opie]

Its hard to compare someone who played in the 80s to someone who played in the 90s, just saying.

If Fedorov had played in the NHL during the 80's, he'd have 2000 pts. Yzerman's stats are just the product of playing in a crappy defense time period. Are you going to tell me Bernie Nichols is better than Fedorov?

The Axe:
Google and Hockey DB are your friends, research things before you just say something. I know the internet is mostly filled with Porn, bad journalism, and stupid pop up ads, but it has useful parts too.

Now this is what has always confused me about this argument; the stats!
So what you are saying is Stevie must have scored 3/4 of his goals in the 7 years he played in the 80s? (I know exaggeration, but you get the point)

Ok lets be fair to the Feds camp on this one and just compare years they played together on the same team, would that be better?

No Ana feds, no 1980s Yzerman stats.

Career totals from 1990-91 season until 2002-03


Sergei Fedorov gp g a pt pims plus/minus
Playoff gp g a pts pim
1990-91 Detroit Red Wings NHL 77 31 48 79 66 11
-Playoffs 7 1 5 6 4
1991-92 Detroit Red Wings NHL 80 32 54 86 72 26
-11 5 5 10 8
1992-93 Detroit Red Wings NHL 73 34 53 87 72 33
-7 3 6 9 23
1993-94 Detroit Red Wings NHL 82 56 64 120 34 48
-7 1 7 8 6
1994-95 Detroit Red Wings NHL 42 20 30 50 24 6 17
-7 17 24 6
1995-96 Detroit Red Wings NHL 78 39 68 107 48 49
-19 2 18 20 10
1996-97 Detroit Red Wings NHL 74 30 33 63 30 29
-20 8 12 20 12
1997-98 Detroit Red Wings NHL 21 6 11 17 25 10
-22 10 10 20 12
1998-99 Detroit Red Wings NHL 77 26 37 63 66
-9 10 1 8 9 8
1999-00 Detroit Red Wings NHL 68 27 35 62 22 8
-9 4 4 8 4
2000-01 Detroit Red Wings NHL 75 32 37 69 40 12
-6 2 5 7 0
2001-02 Detroit Red Wings NHL 81 31 37 68 36 20
-23 5 14 19 20
2002-03 Detroit Red Wings NHL 80 36 47 83 52 15
-4 1 2 3 0
Totals 908 400 554 954 587 276 162 50 113 163 113

Steve Yzerman
1990-91 Detroit Red Wings NHL 80 51 57 108 34 -2
-Playoffs7 3 3 6 4
1991-92 Detroit Red Wings NHL 79 45 58 103 64 26
-11 3 5 8 12
1992-93 Detroit Red Wings NHL 84 58 79 137 44 33
-7 4 3 7 4
1993-94 Detroit Red Wings NHL 58 24 58 82 36 11
-3 1 3 4 0
1994-95 Detroit Red Wings NHL 47 12 26 38 40 6
-15 4 8 12 0
1995-96 Detroit Red Wings NHL 80 36 59 95 64 29
-18 8 12 20 4
1996-97 Detroit Red Wings NHL 81 22 63 85 78 22
-20 7 6 13 4
1997-98 Detroit Red Wings NHL 75 24 45 69 46 3
-22 6 18 24 22
1998-99 Detroit Red Wings NHL 80 29 45 74 42 8
-10 9 4 13 0
1999-00 Detroit Red Wings NHL 78 35 44 79 34 28
-8 0 4 4 0
2000-01 Detroit Red Wings NHL 54 18 34 52 18 4
-1 0 0 0 0
2001-02 Detroit Red Wings NHL 52 13 35 48 18 11
-23 6 17 23 10
2002-03 Detroit Red Wings NHL 16 2 6 8 8 6
-4 0 1 1 2
864 369 609 978 526 185 149 51 84 135 62

With half a season less hockey played Yzerman has more pts & more assists than feds.
Bottom Line Yzerman put up better numbers in fewer games (I will admit Feds scored more goals but less than the gp difference):
90-91 through 02-03 Totals Feds 908 400 554 954 587 276 Stevie 864 369 609 978 526 185


If you look at the first stats the only seasons Feds dominates Yzerman in stats is the years Yzerman played 50 games. They are also Fedorov's only two great seasons.

Feds had five 80pt seasons including two 100 pt seasons in this span, Yzerman had six 80 pt seasons and three 100+ point seasons including a 58 g 79 a 137 pt season.

Fedorov outscored Yzerman in the playoffs by 28 points in 13 more games. Impressive! Yzerman scored more goals in that period however, but was Feds had far more assists, but had 6 post season were he scored 2 goals or fewer including 93-94 when he scored 1 goal in 7 games while Yzerman missed 4 games, or 00-01 when Yzerman and Shanny had a combined 3 games played while Yzerman put up all 0s in the one game Shanny went all Chuck Woolery (2 &2) in two games, feds played 6 games and put up 2 goals and 5 assists for 7 points. This was when the team really need 5 goals and 2 assists from him.

Not only was Yzerman on par with your most talented player in the history of the game, he put up better numbers, in the 80s or not.

Numbers do not lie, Yzerman was better than Feds (in his prime) and played most of the end of their tenure badly injured.

Not only was Yzerman the better statistical player, he was the epitome of what it means to be a Captain and a Red Wing. He played on broken bones while Feds played when he wanted (he was a much more talented Franzen). Many people forget the post seasons in which the Wings relied on Feds because Yzerman and Shanny were banged up, and when feds was the only Horse Det had in the race and he failed to show up.


Again Yzerman is a top 10 player statistically in the history of the league:
Goals 8th all time 692
Points 6th all time 1755
Assists 7th all time 1063

I know I said I would leave the 80s and the mid 2000s out of this but over his career Yzerman was a 1.16 ppg player, while Feds was .944.

Feds is Carmelo Anthony, phenomenal when surrounded by elite talent, unbelievable when he is counted on to be the second or third cog in the wheel. Then when it is all on him he craps out.

Yzerman towed the company line, even when faced with trade rumors he did what was best for the org, not him.

This is what will prevent Feds from being up in the rafters, these are the rafters in the Joe, not in Colorado where Ray Bourque played 1.5 seasons and got his # retired. The Wings have had a long history of great players, it takes a special player to get his number retired in the Winged Wheel. Had Fed towed the company line a little more, not let his personal matters interfere, not let his ego and wallet interfere, and had he stayed a Wing for his career maybe 91 is in the rafters already.

As it is he fails to meet the Team first requirement, as well as the life long Wing requirement( as far as the Lindsey left so blah blah blah, I already addressed that, those players left due to a horrible turn in ownership, not for more money or a chance to be the man).

Sorry, no 91 in the rafters.

Edit: Wow that was all pretty and formatted until I posted it, then the chart went to poop, glad I cleared it up for you.

Edited by Opie, 30 July 2012 - 09:18 AM.

[Hatethedrake!]

Sergei Fedorov was an absolute force on the ice. He was just as good defensively as he was offensively. He had the perfect belend of size, speed and skill and had talent coming out of his ass. Did he show up each night? No. Was he a clutch player who could elevate his game when it mattered most? Yes. Was he a dink off the ice? Yes. Would I have liked his dad to shut his pie hole? Yes. Did I think Anna Kournikova was the sexiest woman on the planet? Yes.

The Wings don't win any of those 3 Cups in '97, '98, and 2002 without #91 in the line-up. To think otherwise would mean you are a complete jackasss. Fedorov always had to play against our opponents top lines and top dmen and always excelled. I love Steve Yzerman and everything he brought to the Red Wings. However, the WIngs did not become real Cup threats until Fedorov came here. I recall 1994 when Stevie was injured and Sergei showed everyone how special he really was. He won the Hart Trophy and deservedly so.

I know he has his detractors. I was pissed when he played his little holdout game in 1998. I also did not like when he rejected a personal contract offer from Illitch which would have paid him 50 mil over 5 years back in 2003. He said he had to "think about it." Hey I am not saying Fedorov is without criticism. But he deserves to have his number 91 hanging from the rafters at the Joe. I hope someday the Illitch Family, Holland and Feds can bury the hatchet and once again celebrate the great career he had. I watched his guy his entire career as a Red Wings and I still recall some of the plays he made which I still stand in awe about.

As much as I like Datsyuk as a player, he was not as talented as Feds was. Dats has a much stronger work ethic. He steals the puck away better than Sergei did. However Sergei was much harder to defend than Dats is. Fedorov had the speed and the skill and the shot to beat you a number of ways. Other teams had to figure out ways to stop him and usually failed in doing so.

Fedorov was always my favourite Red Wing next to Yzerman. I have always felt that Feds got a bad rap from most Wings fans. I know many of you appreciated Sergei's play as I did. I am not bashing anyone here. As a whole, I think Fedorov's excellent career went unappreciated here. He made that Sam Jones comment years ago and it did not go over well. I think he was right in some respect. I believe alot of Wings fans were always looking for a reason(s) to bash the guy.

I know what he brought to this team and will always appreciate it. He is one of the all time Red Wings greats and that is saying something. As I said before, I don't care what anyone says, we don't win ANY of those 3 Cups without #91.

[The Axe]

You had me and then you lost me. Feds had the best playoff +/- in the 90's so saying he didnt show up is lame. And he didnt get hurt because he worked out and kept himself ripped. The Europeans caught onto tje importance of physical conditioning a lot faster than the North Americans in terms of hockey. Perhaps if Yzerman had trained as hard as Fedorov, he would have been there to help the lone horse out a bit more. All this being said, why does Fedorov have to be Yzerman? When the raise his jersey, should they put "Not Steve" on the back?

[Opie]

Yes lets forget that the Wings had the best D corp in the game during those cup runs, Feds was a piece just as Shanny was, and with no cap the Wings did whatever they needed to do to get the best team on the ice. Without 91 the Wings would have got some one to replace him, that was how they operated, when they thought another team was better, Illitch opened up the checkbook.

Lets look at the cup rosters:
96-97 (BTW feds was on the team for 6 years, this was the year they traded for Shanny, hmm who was the missing piece?)
Shanny, Feds, Yzerman, Larionov, Fetisov, Konstantinov, Murphy, Lids, Kozlov, Lapointe, etc...
97-98 had all the same great names and added a very very good young goaltender to the roster.

Was feds important, damn straight, was he the main reason, no! No one was, the whole team was amazing,
Team D was unreal, hard, physical team to play against, with high end talent, Feds added a dimension of speed and high end talent, no doubt about it.

And your argument that Feds was against the top lines of the other teams is pretty moot considering at this time (and I could be wrong) Feds, Shanny, and Yzerman spent a fair amount of time on the ice together.

To say Feds is responsible for any of the championships in Det is ridiculous, especially the 02 one; in which if it weren't for a one legged Yzerman barely picking himself up of the ice, using his stick as a crutch to get up, single handidly carrying the team past Vancouver, which if Feds had done in 93-94 or 00-01 maybe I think differently of him.

The D and the style of play got them the back to back cups, 2002 Yzerman willed them through the first round, then the team took over after that.

Feds was great, not jersey in the Joe Rafters great.

[RusDRW]

Dats and Z are great, but they are not Lids and Stevie Y.

If they both are going to maintain their current level of play through their late 30th their numbers are going to be up there. Steve. Y and Lids are very exceptional players. There are only few of them in the history. Still there are more than 100 retired numbers around the league. For example, I bet LaFontain's and Trottier's numbers are out of circulation in Buffalo and NY. Dats and Zet are pretty comparable to them.

[Hatethedrake!]

You had me and then you lost me. Feds had the best playoff +/- in the 90's so saying he didnt show up is lame. And he didnt get hurt because he worked out and kept himself ripped. The Europeans caught onto tje importance of physical conditioning a lot faster than the North Americans in terms of hockey. Perhaps if Yzerman had trained as hard as Fedorov, he would have been there to help the lone horse out a bit more. All this being said, why does Fedorov have to be Yzerman? When the raise his jersey, should they put "Not Steve" on the back?

Guy, you are not going to convince anyone of your argument by ripping Stevie Y. I realize your incessant need for attention but most Red Wings fans love Steve Yzerman. You can throw stats out all day long but Red Wings fans know what they saw. I loved Fedorov as a player but if you think he never took games off means you know nothing about the game. Period. If Feds had of been as consistent as Yzerman, he would have had even more impressive stats than he did. I saw both players excel as Red Wings. I loved both of them. Who would I take if I had to choose one? Steve Yzerman every day of the week. What does Yzerman have to do with any of this? The topic is about Sergei Fedorov. Whether he should have his number hanging from rafters. Do you hate Yzerman? Just tell the truth. Quit being wishy washy and trashing Yzerman. I hate sandbaggers.

Edited by Hatethedrake!, 30 July 2012 - 09:43 AM.

[Opie]

You had me and then you lost me. Feds had the best playoff +/- in the 90's so saying he didnt show up is lame. And he didnt get hurt because he worked out and kept himself ripped. The Europeans caught onto tje importance of physical conditioning a lot faster than the North Americans in terms of hockey. Perhaps if Yzerman had trained as hard as Fedorov, he would have been there to help the lone horse out a bit more. All this being said, why does Fedorov have to be Yzerman? When the raise his jersey, should they put "Not Steve" on the back?

Why compare the two, well lets see we are talking about Wing forwards who should or have their number retired, only one of the retired # forwards actually played at the same time as Feds, plus someone else already compared them.

But you are missing the point; if you have to say "not Stevie" or "Not Gordie" or not "Lids" they don't belong in the rafters at the Joe!

Another example if you don't like the Stevie Y comparison: Lids jersey, no need to put "not Stevie" on the back, he was the Perfect Human for 17+ seasons, was a Captain and a lifelong wing who toke pay cuts to help the team get better. He never played the hold out game, he never said he needed more ice time or to be the man.

Yzerman's injuries had nothing to do with not being in shape, it wasn't like he was out due to pulled groins or ab strains.

He had surgery that most people are lucky to walk after having, he had an orbital bone shattered by a puck, how do you strengthen and condition your orbital bone??

Yzerman was past his prime when feds was in it, yet Yzerman put up better numbers.

And I explained to you when I thought feds crapped out in the playoffs, when Yzerman and Shanny played 3 games, and the team was relying on Feds.
But when he did shine the likes of Yzermam, Kozlov, Murphy, Lids, Larionov and others were also producing.

http://www.hockeydb....0000341998.html

Check out how many wings had double digit playoff points.

Let me try to explain my position better notice the difference in these sentences:

Fedorov was a world class talent who helped the team win multiple championships and build a dynasty, who took shifts, games, and even parts of seasons off, left the franchise for a chance to be the man.

Yzerman was a world class talent who helped the team win multiple championships and build a dynasty, constantly put the team first in salary, ice time, and any other way you can think of, was the epitome of what a captain should be, and was the complete embodiment of what it means to be a Red Wing.

Lidstrom was a world class talent who helped the team win multiple championships and build a dynasty, constantly put the team first in salary, ice time, and any other way you can think of, was the epitome of what a captain should be, and was the complete embodiment of what it means to be a Red Wing.

Being an elite, world class athlete is simply just not enough to get your # retired for the Wings, sorry, it just isn't enough.

[Hatethedrake!]

Yes lets forget that the Wings had the best D corp in the game during those cup runs, Feds was a piece just as Shanny was, and with no cap the Wings did whatever they needed to do to get the best team on the ice. Without 91 the Wings would have got some one to replace him, that was how they operated, when they thought another team was better, Illitch opened up the checkbook.

Lets look at the cup rosters:
96-97 (BTW feds was on the team for 6 years, this was the year they traded for Shanny, hmm who was the missing piece?)
Shanny, Feds, Yzerman, Larionov, Fetisov, Konstantinov, Murphy, Lids, Kozlov, Lapointe, etc...
97-98 had all the same great names and added a very very good young goaltender to the roster.

Was feds important, damn straight, was he the main reason, no! No one was, the whole team was amazing,
Team D was unreal, hard, physical team to play against, with high end talent, Feds added a dimension of speed and high end talent, no doubt about it.

And your argument that Feds was against the top lines of the other teams is pretty moot considering at this time (and I could be wrong) Feds, Shanny, and Yzerman spent a fair amount of time on the ice together.

To say Feds is responsible for any of the championships in Det is ridiculous, especially the 02 one; in which if it weren't for a one legged Yzerman barely picking himself up of the ice, using his stick as a crutch to get up, single handidly carrying the team past Vancouver, which if Feds had done in 93-94 or 00-01 maybe I think differently of him.

The D and the style of play got them the back to back cups, 2002 Yzerman willed them through the first round, then the team took over after that.

Feds was great, not jersey in the Joe Rafters great.

I completely disagree with eveything you said in your post and here is why...You say Fedorov could have been replaced. With who? That is pure speculation. Number one centres do not grow on trees and teams who have them hardly ever trade them. Your logic is seriously flawed here. At the time, say 1996, who would Bowman (GM at the time) have replaced Fedorov with? Joe Sakic? Peter Forsberg? Yeah, I am sure the Avs would have been willing to trade 1 of those players to their hated arch rivals. Eric Lindros? The point here is that there was no one who was going to replace Fedorov in the line-up. Why do you think the Wings matched Carolina's offer sheet in 1998? They knew he could not have been replaced which is why they paid the high price of keeping him.

Your point is moot and nothing but speculation yet again regarding time on the ice. Did Shanny kill penalties? Who was on the ice more on the penalty kill than Fedorov was? Lidstrom? Amongst the forwards, Fedorov was relied on the most by Bowman. He even said it himself numerous times. You know just because you don't like Fedorov doesn't mean he wasn't a great hockey player. Your refer to 2002. Yzerman playing on 1 leg was great. However do you really believe the Wings win that Cup without Fedorov? Yzerman didn't add much scoring wise after the Canucks series. Fedorov was our best player. We don't win anything that year without him. To think otherwise makes you look like you don't know anything about the game. You do not like Fedorov and are basing your flawed argument on it.

I also do not believe we win any of those Cups without Lidstrom. He was that important. It isn't Fedorov' fault he had talented players around him. He made those guys better as well. You don't appreciate Fedorov's career, that is your opinion. Not mine.

[St. Michael (the Red Wing)]

Crymson brought up a good point about Fedorov holding out in 97-98. Totally forgot about that. Grudges aside Fedorov's numbers don't lie. For sure Fedorov is or will make the Hockey Hall of Fame at some point.

Edited by St. Michael (the Red Wing), 30 July 2012 - 09:57 AM.

[Wing Across The Pond]

Fedorov is going to the hall of fame. If the Wings dont retire his number, that would be petty. He was our best forward and arguably best player for 10 years. Hes got the stats and hardware to prove it. He shouldnt be held back because he wasnt around to rack up 150 pt seasons in the 80's. When Yzerman decided to play defense and win cups, he had to become more like Fedorov. 91 to the rafters for sure.

If you're going with stats, Yzerman has nearly 600 more points than him all with the Wings, and Howe has nearly 700 more not to mention over 1700 games in an era that didn't have nearly as many teams. The numbers retired are something special, like REALLY special. If you're going with stats then Hull, Shanahan, Robitaille, Murph, all have better numbers and contributed significantly to the Wings during the same period. Fedorov may well have been 'the best player' on the team but wasn't the leader. Everyone in the rafters can claim to have been.

[The Axe]

I have an Yzerman sweater and no Fedorov. I just recognize that you can like 2 players at the same time. Fedorov's stats are there. Same cup wins as Yzerman. More and better individual trophy wins than Yzerman. Can Messier's jersey not be retired in Edmonton because Gretzky played ahead of him? Anybody that watched both of these guys knows that Fedorov was the superior hockey player. And if you concede that, then we can get back to the real argument- was Fedorov a true Red Wing and not just a hired gun? I think he was for the better part of his career. And thats why I think his sweater should be retired.

[The Axe]

And Stevie Y WAS awesome in 2002. No denying that.

[St. Michael (the Red Wing)]

If you're going with stats, Yzerman has nearly 600 more points than him all with the Wings, and Howe has nearly 700 more not to mention over 1700 games in an era that didn't have nearly as many teams. The numbers retired are something special, like REALLY special. If you're going with stats then Hull, Shanahan, Robitaille, Murph, all have better numbers and contributed significantly to the Wings during the same period. Fedorov may well have been 'the best player' on the team but wasn't the leader. Everyone in the rafters can claim to have been.

Robitaille played 2 seasons with the Wings and Hull 3. How are their numbers better on the Wings than Fedorov's I don't get it? You mean total career numbers? Fedorov was with the Wings for 12 seasons, longer than Hull, Shanahan, Robitaille and Murphy on the Wings. Fedorov no doubt was not the leader on the Wings Yzerman was obviously and for good reason.

[Wing Across The Pond]

I have an Yzerman sweater and no Fedorov. I just recognize that you can like 2 players at the same time. Fedorov's stats are there. Same cup wins as Yzerman. More and better individual trophy wins than Yzerman. Can Messier's jersey not be retired in Edmonton because Gretzky played ahead of him? Anybody that watched both of these guys knows that Fedorov was the superior hockey player. And if you concede that, then we can get back to the real argument- was Fedorov a true Red Wing and not just a hired gun? I think he was for the better part of his career. And thats why I think his sweater should be retired.

And knows that Yzerman was the superior person. Retirement is about more than simply being a great player. That's why he's up there with no argument and there's a discussion about Fed. In my view if there is discussion then it's a no.

I agree that he was in no way a hired gun as you put it, he was a key piece of this team, but he wasn't all of this team like the other retired numbers were.

Robitaille played 2 seasons with the Wings and Hull 3. How are their numbers better on the Wings than Fedorov's I don't get it? You mean total career numbers? Fedorov was with the Wings for 12 seasons, longer than Hull, Shanahan, Robitaille and Murphy on the Wings. Fedorov no doubt was not the leader on the Wings Yzerman was obviously and for good reason.

Yeah I know I'm not saying their Wings numbers were better, sorry if that was implied, simply saying that if we're going on stats then all of them have better career numbers than Fed. You never hear talks with any of their teams about number retirement. I simply think it goes beyond stats when talking of retiring a number.