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Your thoughts on Sergei Fedorov

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#101 The Axe

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 10:25 AM

Ok, I can see that argument. And it is a 100 % legit one. I just dont like the "Fedorov was not Yzerman" argument. Because that is just popularity based and not merit.

#102 Opie

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 10:47 AM

I completely disagree with eveything you said in your post and here is why...You say Fedorov could have been replaced. With who? That is pure speculation. Number one centres do not grow on trees and teams who have them hardly ever trade them. Your logic is seriously flawed here. At the time, say 1996, who would Bowman (GM at the time) have replaced Fedorov with? Joe Sakic? Peter Forsberg? Yeah, I am sure the Avs would have been willing to trade 1 of those players to their hated arch rivals. Eric Lindros? The point here is that there was no one who was going to replace Fedorov in the line-up. Why do you think the Wings matched Carolina's offer sheet in 1998? They knew he could not have been replaced which is why they paid the high price of keeping him.

Your point is moot and nothing but speculation yet again regarding time on the ice. Did Shanny kill penalties? Who was on the ice more on the penalty kill than Fedorov was? Lidstrom? Amongst the forwards, Fedorov was relied on the most by Bowman. He even said it himself numerous times. You know just because you don't like Fedorov doesn't mean he wasn't a great hockey player. Your refer to 2002. Yzerman playing on 1 leg was great. However do you really believe the Wings win that Cup without Fedorov? Yzerman didn't add much scoring wise after the Canucks series. Fedorov was our best player. We don't win anything that year without him. To think otherwise makes you look like you don't know anything about the game. You do not like Fedorov and are basing your flawed argument on it.

I also do not believe we win any of those Cups without Lidstrom. He was that important. It isn't Fedorov' fault he had talented players around him. He made those guys better as well. You don't appreciate Fedorov's career, that is your opinion. Not mine.


I appreciate what he did, I even called him world class, even called him one of the most talented players, because you choose to ignore the shifts he took off does not mean I have to.

I admitted the whole team won championships, not just Yzerman.

But since you brought up 01-02 again here is another tidbit for you, who led the team in scoring that playoff run?

Thats right Stevie Y with 6g 17a and 23pts,
Lids 16pts (5 goals), hull 18 pts (10 goals), shanny 19 pts(8 goals), feds 19 pts (5 goals). Goals Highlighted to refute your point, Hull was the beast in the later rounds! Hell Homer had 8 goals that year.

Yet another season where the team (after the first round) was playing great and so was Feds. Point out a year to me were Feds did the heavy lifting alone?
What year did he carry the team?

Now look at the amount of years he had high post season point totals, and look at how many other Wings had great stats too.

They won as a team and lost as a team, neither Stevie nor Feds single handily won the team the cup, however Yzerman single handily won them a few series, even when the likes of Feds, Shanny and the rest were struggling. Where as Feds (again) was at his best when the team was at its best.

As far as replacing him, you saying you couldn't replace him is just as speculative, in 96-97 Feds was 44th in scoring(30th in goals), behind the likes of Ziggy Palffy, Hull, Kariya, Selanne, Bondra, Nolan, Moginly, Rechhi, Graves, Fluery, Yashin, Amonte, Stumpel, Weight, Damphouse etc...
95-96 he was 10th (again one of his two great seasons).
98-99 he was just behind Ray Whitney at 31st.

My point you may be asking, could they have replaced his production with one player for his entire career, no way in hell, but 2 or 3 players could have done it, and in fact anyone in 97-98 would have been more productive than Feds when he held out.

Who says the Wings don't trade Feds for Palffy one year, then get Tkachuk later or whoever. The wings were deep at center and had multiple lines with 2 centers on it. But again all speculation on both our parts.

Was Feds an important piece, very much so yes, was he as important as Stevie, no.

Does he deserve his # retired, no.
Is he HOF, questionable and I only say that due to the amount of HOFers with his stats.
How many forwards in the HOF have less than 500 goals?
How many forwards in the HOF have less than 1200 points?
If he made it would I be upset, no not at all congrats, there are bigger travesties in omissions and election into the HOF.

Either way my point is he doesn't deserve his number retired in the Red WIng org.

Got distracted during this post it may not make the sense I wanted.

I have an Yzerman sweater and no Fedorov. I just recognize that you can like 2 players at the same time. Fedorov's stats are there. Same cup wins as Yzerman. More and better individual trophy wins than Yzerman. Can Messier's jersey not be retired in Edmonton because Gretzky played ahead of him? Anybody that watched both of these guys knows that Fedorov was the superior hockey player. And if you concede that, then we can get back to the real argument- was Fedorov a true Red Wing and not just a hired gun? I think he was for the better part of his career. And thats why I think his sweater should be retired.


My like or dislike of Feds has nothing to do with it. Maybe this will help:

If part of the requirements in EDM were that players were lifelong, die hard, committed to the Org above all else neither of them would be retired in EDM, that is what makes retiring a number in Det so difficult and what keeps Feds out of the rafters.

Edited by Opie, 30 July 2012 - 10:49 AM.

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#103 Hatethedrake!

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 11:15 AM

I appreciate what he did, I even called him world class, even called him one of the most talented players, because you choose to ignore the shifts he took off does not mean I have to.

I admitted the whole team won championships, not just Yzerman.

But since you brought up 01-02 again here is another tidbit for you, who led the team in scoring that playoff run?

Thats right Stevie Y with 6g 17a and 23pts,
Lids 16pts (5 goals), hull 18 pts (10 goals), shanny 19 pts(8 goals), feds 19 pts (5 goals). Goals Highlighted to refute your point, Hull was the beast in the later rounds! Hell Homer had 8 goals that year.

Yet another season where the team (after the first round) was playing great and so was Feds. Point out a year to me were Feds did the heavy lifting alone?
What year did he carry the team?

Now look at the amount of years he had high post season point totals, and look at how many other Wings had great stats too.

They won as a team and lost as a team, neither Stevie nor Feds single handily won the team the cup, however Yzerman single handily won them a few series, even when the likes of Feds, Shanny and the rest were struggling. Where as Feds (again) was at his best when the team was at its best.

As far as replacing him, you saying you couldn't replace him is just as speculative, in 96-97 Feds was 44th in scoring(30th in goals), behind the likes of Ziggy Palffy, Hull, Kariya, Selanne, Bondra, Nolan, Moginly, Rechhi, Graves, Fluery, Yashin, Amonte, Stumpel, Weight, Damphouse etc...
95-96 he was 10th (again one of his two great seasons).
98-99 he was just behind Ray Whitney at 31st.

My point you may be asking, could they have replaced his production with one player for his entire career, no way in hell, but 2 or 3 players could have done it, and in fact anyone in 97-98 would have been more productive than Feds when he held out.

Who says the Wings don't trade Feds for Palffy one year, then get Tkachuk later or whoever. The wings were deep at center and had multiple lines with 2 centers on it. But again all speculation on both our parts.

Was Feds an important piece, very much so yes, was he as important as Stevie, no.

Does he deserve his # retired, no.
Is he HOF, questionable and I only say that due to the amount of HOFers with his stats.
How many forwards in the HOF have less than 500 goals?
How many forwards in the HOF have less than 1200 points?
If he made it would I be upset, no not at all congrats, there are bigger travesties in omissions and election into the HOF.

Either way my point is he doesn't deserve his number retired in the Red WIng org.

Got distracted during this post it may not make the sense I wanted.



My like or dislike of Feds has nothing to do with it. Maybe this will help:

If part of the requirements in EDM were that players were lifelong, die hard, committed to the Org above all else neither of them would be retired in EDM, that is what makes retiring a number in Det so difficult and what keeps Feds out of the rafters.


Oh God, where do I start? LOL You're a stats guy,I get it. I go by what I see. If a player goes up the ice and deques through the entire team and then passes puck off to a teammate to score in the empty net then you would give credit to the goal scorer. As well as Yzerman played (on 1 leg) in that '02 playoff run, he was nowhere near the force Fedorov was. Offensively or defensively. He just wasn't. He was limited with the injury he had. Fortunately, the Wings had the luxury of having Fedorov to pick up the slack. Holmstrom was better than Fedorov in the Cup run...LMAO. Wow. Are you listening to yourself? Fedorov did carry the team many times over many years. As much as I love Steve Yzerman, he wasn't perfect. He had bad games too. There were times I wondered where he was or why he wasn't as effective as he should have been. But that's hockey. You can't be the best all the time. I mean Lidstrom was close though. 97, 98 and 2002 Fedorov DID carry this team. You just have to go back to the games and watch them and take your Sergei hatred blinders off. I still recall that OT goal in 98 against the Caps. How many players could have scored that goal? It was awesome. That was just one example. Your player list of guys like Palffy, Whitney, Kariya, Selanne, Bondra, Nolan, etc are ALL wingers. Feds was a CENTRE. In replacing Feds, the Wings would have had to acquire a centre. You still have not answered my question. Likely because you can't. WHO would the Wings have been able to replace Feds with at the centre position? If he was so invaluable to the team as you allude to, should it have not been easy to do? In your fictional Fantasy Land, who is this player? Even if there was a player, could the Wings have been able to trade for him? You really think Keitch Tkachuk, a guy who never even played in a Cup Final would have been able to replace Fedorov? Give me a break guy. Doug Weight and Vinny Damphosse? Do you even watch hockey? LOL

You only look at offensive numbers to support your biased and flawed argument. Lidstrom was our best dman after Vladdy could not play anymore. Fedorov was our 2nd best defensive player. There are no stats to measure defensive dominance. Even the plus minus stat is a flawed one for a variety of reasons and most coaches and GMs agree with this. It is not wihout merit though. If anything, Fedorov's presence made all other players on the team better. He drew the best lines. Yzerman could play on the 2nd line, Larionov could centre a 3rd line. Or Yzerman could play with Feds and be better utilized. A great player is measured by how he impacts the game and the players around him. Fedorov did that for a number of years. His career speaks for itself.

As for stats, Feds played an exceptional 2 way game. He sacrificed stats for the betterment of the team. Just like Yzerman had to learn how to be a complete player at both ends of the ice when Bowman came, so too did Fedorov. Feds could have been on a run and gun team in his prime and put up god like stats. But the Wings demanded its scorers be defensively responsible. Bowman rolled 4 lines and wore opponents down. Feds did not get the same ice time like Lindros was. Or Gretzky and Lemieux in their primes. The 80s were far different than the 90s. The game had changed big time by then. It's apples and oranges. Yzerman had better stats because he dominated in an era where defense was not played until the playoffs. It isn't his fault. Yzerman was as dominant as anyone except for Gretzky, Messier and Lemieux. However in the 90s, Feds was just as dominant in a way in which you can not measure by stats alone. Mike Gartner scored over 700 goals in his career. So why did Neil Smith trade him to the Leafs for Glenn Anderson in 1994? Because he knew whan Anderson could add to his Rangers that Gartner could not. However, in your mesure, Gartner was the better player because he scored more goals. Anyone who followed hockey in the 80s knows Anderson was a better player and a more clutch player and a much better playoff player. This is just one example why stats guys don't get too far in hockey arguments.

Your Edmonton reference makes no sense to me. The only reason why Feds does not have his #91 retired in the Joe's rafters is based on one thing. He and Illitch had a falling out. Period. Was Sergei partly to blame for that? Yes, I believe he is. However it has nothing to do with his career as a Red Wing. His career will always speak for itself. Whether you like him or you didni't like him is moot. He was one of the greatest Red Wings of all time and nothing you or anyone else says will ever take away from that.
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#104 chuckdee

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 11:17 AM

I have a fondness for ole Sergei. He was an exciting player who had some serious wheels. The buzz before he actually laced them up was something else and I loaded up on his Upper Deck hockey card. I thought he had a good career, not great but a good one. I always thought he would end up being the next Gretzky or Lemieux. Obviously those were unrealistic but again, the buzz at the time was crazy. Should his number be retired? 50/50 for me.


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#105 Crymson

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 11:21 AM

50/50 for me.


Are Yzerman and Lidstrom 50/50 for you?

#106 Opie

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 11:43 AM

Oh God, where do I start? LOL You're a stats guy,I get it. I go by what I see. If a player goes up the ice and deques through the entire team and then passes puck off to a teammate to score in the empty net then you would give credit to the goal scorer. As well as Yzerman played (on 1 leg) in that '02 playoff run, he was nowhere near the force Fedorov was. Offensively or defensively. He just wasn't. He was limited with the injury he had. Fortunately, the Wings had the luxury of having Fedorov to pick up the slack. Holmstrom was better than Fedorov in the Cup run...LMAO. Wow. Are you listening to yourself? Fedorov did carry the team many times over many years. As much as I love Steve Yzerman, he wasn't perfect. He had bad games too. There were times I wondered where he was or why he wasn't as effective as he should have been. But that's hockey. You can't be the best all the time. I mean Lidstrom was close though. 97, 98 and 2002 Fedorov DID carry this team. You just have to go back to the games and watch them and take your Sergei hatred blinders off. I still recall that OT goal in 98 against the Caps. How many players could have scored that goal? It was awesome. That was just one example. Your player list of guys like Palffy, Whitney, Kariya, Selanne, Bondra, Nolan, etc are ALL wingers. Feds was a CENTRE. In replacing Feds, the Wings would have had to acquire a centre. You still have not answered my question. Likely because you can't. WHO would the Wings have been able to replace Feds with at the centre position? If he was so invaluable to the team as you allude to, should it have not been easy to do? In your fictional Fantasy Land, who is this player? Even if there was a player, could the Wings have been able to trade for him? You really think Keitch Tkachuk, a guy who never even played in a Cup Final would have been able to replace Fedorov? Give me a break guy. Doug Weight and Vinny Damphosse? Do you even watch hockey? LOL

You only look at offensive numbers to support your biased and flawed argument. Lidstrom was our best dman after Vladdy could not play anymore. Fedorov was our 2nd best defensive player. There are no stats to measure defensive dominance. Even the plus minus stat is a flawed one for a variety of reasons and most coaches and GMs agree with this. It is not wihout merit though. If anything, Fedorov's presence made all other players on the team better. He drew the best lines. Yzerman could play on the 2nd line, Larionov could centre a 3rd line. Or Yzerman could play with Feds and be better utilized. A great player is measured by how he impacts the game and the players around him. Fedorov did that for a number of years. His career speaks for itself.

As for stats, Feds played an exceptional 2 way game. He sacrificed stats for the betterment of the team. Just like Yzerman had to learn how to be a complete player at both ends of the ice when Bowman came, so too did Fedorov. Feds could have been on a run and gun team in his prime and put up god like stats. But the Wings demanded its scorers be defensively responsible. Bowman rolled 4 lines and wore opponents down. Feds did not get the same ice time like Lindros was. Or Gretzky and Lemieux in their primes. The 80s were far different than the 90s. The game had changed big time by then. It's apples and oranges. Yzerman had better stats because he dominated in an era where defense was not played until the playoffs. It isn't his fault. Yzerman was as dominant as anyone except for Gretzky, Messier and Lemieux. However in the 90s, Feds was just as dominant in a way in which you can not measure by stats alone. Mike Gartner scored over 700 goals in his career. So why did Neil Smith trade him to the Leafs for Glenn Anderson in 1994? Because he knew whan Anderson could add to his Rangers that Gartner could not. However, in your mesure, Gartner was the better player because he scored more goals. Anyone who followed hockey in the 80s knows Anderson was a better player and a more clutch player and a much better playoff player. This is just one example why stats guys don't get too far in hockey arguments.

Your Edmonton reference makes no sense to me. The only reason why Feds does not have his #91 retired in the Joe's rafters is based on one thing. He and Illitch had a falling out. Period. Was Sergei partly to blame for that? Yes, I believe he is. However it has nothing to do with his career as a Red Wing. His career will always speak for itself. Whether you like him or you didni't like him is moot. He was one of the greatest Red Wings of all time and nothing you or anyone else says will ever take away from that.


LOL the go by what I see guy wants me to believe in what he sees with his own eyes, yet failed to read half of my posts (the only reason I can see you saying I hate Feds, or that I don't give him credit or bringing up the 80s again, or missing my whole point).

Show me where I said Homer was better, my point was again, the whole team was firing on all cylinders too, Yzerman carried the team through the first round, the team carried him through the rest, not Feds carried the team through the rest. Are you reading what I write?

I can tell you have Mad love for Feds good, great even. But because I say he does not belong in the rafters you instantly throw in the I hate feds. No, go back through my posts, where do I say I hate him, where do I say he sucked, where do I say he was irrelevant?

Nowhere in fact I have repeatedly made the following point and I will cut and paste my own text to show you my point again:

Feds was a phenomenal talent, all around beast, but the Wings only retire a very select few, the Perfect Human and THE Captain were the first retired in a long time and I think we may see another gap again.


This is what will prevent Feds from being up in the rafters, these are the rafters in the Joe[/u], not in Colorado where Ray Bourque played 1.5 seasons and got his # retired. The Wings have had a long history of great players, it takes a special player to get his number retired in the Winged Wheel. Had Fed towed the company line a little more, not let his personal matters interfere, not let his ego and wallet interfere, and had he stayed a Wing for his career maybe 91 is in the rafters already.

As it is he fails to meet the Team first requirement, as well as the life long Wing requirement( as far as the Lindsey left so blah blah blah, I already addressed that, those players left due to a horrible turn in ownership, not for more money or a chance to be the man).

And this is the best way I can word my opinion try reading it this time:

][/u]Fedorov was a world class talent who helped the team win multiple championships and build a dynasty, who took shifts, games, and even parts of seasons off, left the franchise for a chance to be the man.

Yzerman was a world class talent who helped the team win multiple championships and build a dynasty, constantly put the team first in salary, ice time, and any other way you can think of, was the epitome of what a captain should be, and was the complete embodiment of what it means to be a Red Wing.

Lidstrom was a world class talent who helped the team win multiple championships and build a dynasty, constantly put the team first in salary, ice time, and any other way you can think of, was the epitome of what a captain should be, and was the complete embodiment of what it means to be a Red Wing.


You lose me on your last two paragraphs.
First I posted (again you apparently didn't read) and have been comparing their stats when they were both on the Wings team, not the 80s and not when feds was in ana.

Someone else brought up the "should Messier not be retired because he followed Gretzky", my point was that you can not use that example. Edm obviously doesn't consider being a lifelong player a requirement, like apparently Det does, otherwise neither of them would be up there. That was my point.

I have conceded many times the talent and skill that Feds had.

What you fail to realize is that Yzerman was that talented, all while Feds was in his prime and Yzerman was at the end of his prime.

I have never denied his talents, like some have discounted Yzerman's (which is why I brought them up to begin with BTW).

What I have maintained the whole time (again if you bothered to read) was that Yzerman and Lids were the embodiment of being a Red wing and being a Captain. Feds was not, therefore he will not be in the rafters.

If this debate were about the overall skill of Feds I would have stayed out of it completely, there is no denying the all world skill the man had, what there is debate about is his effort and his dedication to the team above all else, and that will keep 91 from the rafters.

Unless that standard somehow changes, Draper stands a better chance of having his # retired than Fedorov, simply because Draper was more of a "Red Wing" than Fedorov, and Fedorov was 10x (if not more) the talent and player Draper was.

Edited by Opie, 30 July 2012 - 11:56 AM.

"The more I know about people - the better I like my dog." - Mark Twain

"A wise man once told me, ‘Don’t argue with fools. Cause people from a distance can’t tell who is who'." Jay Z, Takeover

"When I was looking for a captain, I wanted a guy with the Red Wings crest tattooed on his chest," said former Detroit coach Jacques Demers, who named Yzerman captain in 1986. "Steve Yzerman was that guy."

“Told him if he wasn't ultra-competitive he couldn't come here. If he didn't bring it every day he couldn't come here, because he was going to hate it if he didn't, dislike the coach and dislike playing here.
“It's real straightforward. If you don't do it right, you're not happy here." Babcock

#107 Hatethedrake!

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 11:57 AM

I've said enough on this topic and have repeated myself ad nauseum. You will not change my opinion about Sergei Fedorov no matter how you construe his career to suit your baseless and flawed logic. The more you do it the more you prove my point and make yourself more wrong than you already are. His career speaks for itself. Period.

Edited by Hatethedrake!, 30 July 2012 - 11:58 AM.

Jordan Tootoo will wreck shop.

We need someone like Parise that can penetrate the box.-blueadams

#108 Carman

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 12:08 PM

Are Yzerman and Lidstrom 50/50 for you?


That's where I draw the line. I love Fedorov, he was an amazing player.

But to get your number retired by the Red Wings it has to be as close to a 100% consensus as possible with almost no one disagreeing, and I don't think that's the case with Fedorov. Personally just on his performance as a Red Wing I believe he should get in 5th all time in points, 3rd in playoff points. PPG .2 off of Howe. All while being one of the greatest defensive forwards in the league's history. But I also understand that he didn't play but 900 games as Wing, and left on questionable terms. But he does have more games than Ted Lindsay, and 200 more points so I find it difficult to say one is in and the other isn't. But life's not fair.

#109 Opie

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 12:11 PM

You think it should be retired because you love Feds.

I don't think it should because the wings that are retired were the face of the Wings, they were the embodiment of being a Red Wing.

You have a problem with that, I don't care I am not the one who set the standard, I am just the one pointing out that he does not meet that standard.

And every point you have brought up has nothing to do with his being a Red Wing above all else, it is about his stellar play, which is all in good if this were 29 other teams in the league.

It is not, this is the Detroit Red Wings, they only retire a very select few numbers, and those players are indeed the embodiment of being a Red Wing first and foremost.

His career speaks for itself in terms of the HOF, not the rafters at the Joe.

In terms of the rafters his leaving the org, holding out, and taking shifts off speak volumes (and had he stayed in Det none of this matters, even if he still holds out and takes shifts off). EDIT #2: my point here is if he stayed 91 is in the rafters and probably puts up better career numbers as he declined severely after leaving Det! (another point all the Feds is god camp forgets to point out, one 65 point season the rest under 43, another reason I left his ana and c-bus days out of my comparison of the two, so you wouldn't say oh well he played with no one once he left)

Again nothing to do with like or dislike of Fedorov, his caliber of play, none of that keeps him from the rafters, again because you have selective reading impairments:

THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH LIKE OR DISLIKE OF FEDOROV OR HIS CALIBER OR PLAY!

It is do to him leaving the team, holding out, and taking shifts, games, and parts of seasons off!

Edit: BTW go back through my posts and show me were what I said was wrong, you use the "the more you post the more wrong you are" and the 'My eyes" test, but you refuse to use those same eyes to see that the Wings that have been retired as of late never played another game in a different uniform, never held out, and were the picture of what it means to be a Detroit Red Wing!

Edited by Opie, 30 July 2012 - 12:43 PM.

"The more I know about people - the better I like my dog." - Mark Twain

"A wise man once told me, ‘Don’t argue with fools. Cause people from a distance can’t tell who is who'." Jay Z, Takeover

"When I was looking for a captain, I wanted a guy with the Red Wings crest tattooed on his chest," said former Detroit coach Jacques Demers, who named Yzerman captain in 1986. "Steve Yzerman was that guy."

“Told him if he wasn't ultra-competitive he couldn't come here. If he didn't bring it every day he couldn't come here, because he was going to hate it if he didn't, dislike the coach and dislike playing here.
“It's real straightforward. If you don't do it right, you're not happy here." Babcock

#110 The Axe

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 01:48 PM

This is a good debate now. Stats dont tell the whole story. Another thing- havent all the retired #s served as a captain at some point? Something to think about.

#111 Opie

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 01:55 PM

Good point!
I think Sawchuck was the only one who didn't but that would be because very rarely is a netminder a captain.

"The more I know about people - the better I like my dog." - Mark Twain

"A wise man once told me, ‘Don’t argue with fools. Cause people from a distance can’t tell who is who'." Jay Z, Takeover

"When I was looking for a captain, I wanted a guy with the Red Wings crest tattooed on his chest," said former Detroit coach Jacques Demers, who named Yzerman captain in 1986. "Steve Yzerman was that guy."

“Told him if he wasn't ultra-competitive he couldn't come here. If he didn't bring it every day he couldn't come here, because he was going to hate it if he didn't, dislike the coach and dislike playing here.
“It's real straightforward. If you don't do it right, you're not happy here." Babcock

#112 Wing Across The Pond

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 04:14 PM

This is a good debate now. Stats dont tell the whole story. Another thing- havent all the retired #s served as a captain at some point? Something to think about.

Good point!
I think Sawchuck was the only one who didn't but that would be because very rarely is a netminder a captain.


Absolutely. I think there is a league rule that doesn't allow goaltenders to be captains for reasons such as they're not allowed over the red line, are used in rotation systems (as in most, if not all, goaltenders will be benched for a number games). But I could be wrong don't quote me on that. But yeah every Wing up there bar Sawchuck was a Captain... some on numerous occasions. But then again Sawchuck was revolutionary in his position.

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#113 toby91_ca

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 09:22 AM

Is he HOF, questionable and I only say that due to the amount of HOFers with his stats.
How many forwards in the HOF have less than 500 goals?
How many forwards in the HOF have less than 1200 points?

To me, there is no question - Hall of Famer - Yes, # retired in Detroit - No

Hall of Fame?

How many forwards in the HOF with less than 500 goals and 1,200 points? Quite a few actually. Ask yourself this: how many players that have very close to 500 goals and very close to 1,200 points + Hart + Pearson + 2 Selkes + 3 Cups aren't in the Hall? I'm guessing you won't find any at all. Add to that.....he's the all time leading scorer for Russian born players (healthy enough lead right now). Only 4 US born players have scored more points and his ppg stat is better than all 4 I think.

# Retirement?

I think he had all the potential to one day end up with his number retired by the Wings, but no chance now, not after he left in 2003. You can make very good arguments as to why he should have his number retired and they would likely all be valid arguments, but there is no pre-determined formula for number retirements that all teams follow. It is a personal preference by each team's ownership and managment and based on the precedent set with Detroit to date, no one would fit their criteria except Lidstrom (Yzerman is already there). I don't see any other potentials at this point. Some might suggest Datsyuk or Zetterberg might get there, but I don't see that happening at all.

Absolutely. I think there is a league rule that doesn't allow goaltenders to be captains for reasons such as they're not allowed over the red line, are used in rotation systems (as in most, if not all, goaltenders will be benched for a number games). But I could be wrong don't quote me on that. But yeah every Wing up there bar Sawchuck was a Captain... some on numerous occasions. But then again Sawchuck was revolutionary in his position.

There is no rule prohibiting a goalie from becoming a captain. What you suggest is logical though, you normally wouldn't have a goalie as captain because of the the big on ice responsibilities of the captain is communication with officials...which requires moving around the ice quite a bit. No rule though....Luongo comes to mind as a goalie who has recently served as team captain.

#114 Opie

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 10:03 AM

To me, there is no question - Hall of Famer - Yes, # retired in Detroit - No

Hall of Fame?

How many forwards in the HOF with less than 500 goals and 1,200 points? Quite a few actually. Ask yourself this: how many players that have very close to 500 goals and very close to 1,200 points + Hart + Pearson + 2 Selkes + 3 Cups aren't in the Hall? I'm guessing you won't find any at all. Add to that.....he's the all time leading scorer for Russian born players (healthy enough lead right now). Only 4 US born players have scored more points and his ppg stat is better than all 4 I think.



I have 0 issue with him being in the HOF, I am just saying a guy like Dino who has over 600 goals is out of the HOF, numbers are important, and I do realize this is the international hockey hall of fame not NHL so his Russian numbers are a factor, but lets not forget how long it has taken for the HOF to recognize the KLM line, Krutov didn't get in until 2010.

it would be impossible for me to deny the talent Feds was, I am just saying that sometimes in HOF voting I don't think the defensive play of a forward gets factored in enough. And sometimes I have no idea what they are using for criteria.

I mean Adam Oates & Bure over Shanahan, If Shanny isn't a first ballot HOFer I am not sure what the IHOF is doing.

IMO Shanny, sakic, sundin, no question first ballot guys.

EDIT: I am an asshat, Dino is in the HOF, hadn't had coffee yet!!!!

Edited by Opie, 31 July 2012 - 10:18 AM.

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#115 The Axe

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 10:18 AM

Feds was a talent like no other. He was a bigger version of Datsyuk with speed and a harder shot. Best all-around player ive ever watched. Lemieux was the best offensively.

#116 WingsAlways

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 11:08 AM

Absolutely. I think there is a league rule that doesn't allow goaltenders to be captains for reasons such as they're not allowed over the red line, are used in rotation systems (as in most, if not all, goaltenders will be benched for a number games). But I could be wrong don't quote me on that. But yeah every Wing up there bar Sawchuck was a Captain... some on numerous occasions. But then again Sawchuck was revolutionary in his position.


Vancouver named Roberto Luongo "unofficial" captain in 2008, which I don't understand because the rules don't permit a goaltender to wear a "C" or serve as captain on ice.

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#117 Crymson

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 12:52 PM

Retirement of jerseys should be granted only to those players for whom the honor is undisputed and beyond contestation. Such is the case with Yzerman and Lidstrom. Such is not the case with Fedorov.

#118 WingsAlways

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 01:02 PM

Retirement of jerseys should be granted only to those players for whom the honor is undisputed and beyond contestation. Such is the case with Yzerman and Lidstrom. Such is not the case with Fedorov.


Precisely. Fedorov certainly pulled his weight during his time with the Wings, but the same can be said for a number of impact players. As I stated in a previous post, Fedorov was my idol growing up but despite my bias I'd much rather see #16 hanging from the rafter...

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#119 Sergei Fedorov91

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 04:58 PM

I felt kinda weird with my username when he left.

#120 The Axe

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 05:32 PM

Im kinda leaning toward the against now. The "if theres a dispute, then no" argument is a really strong one.





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