168 replies to this topic

[Wing Across The Pond]

How would you define team commitment? I am only asking because Gordie Howe, Ted Lindsay, and others who are in the rafters all played for other teams in their careers.

Gordie played 25 years with the Wings until injury forced him to retire. It was only a few years later that he felt fit enough to play again, and did so with his two sons. He didn't leave to go somewhere else.

Not to mention he had a falling out with the Wings management whilst he played but still remained on the team. Don't know if that says anything about the argument that Feds number isn't retired because of his falling out with the management? Just a thought.

[cusimano_brothers]

He'll hold out for more money in the Alumni Game.

[Hatethedrake!]

It will be nice to see Sam Jones play again.

[StormJH1]

The litmus test is this: is there a litmus test? Then the answer is no. It's the same argument about Ozzie going into the HHOF. Does he have the numbers? More or less. Is he a HHOF goaltender? You have to work really hard to make a case that maybe he should get in.

If you have to make a case for it, then the answer is no. Should Gretzky be in the HHOF? Without a doubt, and I don't think you'd find anyone that says different. Should Yzerman and Lidstrom have their jerseys retired? Again, find anyone that disagrees. Now this thread illustrates perfectly that Feds is not on that same level of an automatic "Yes"

EDIT: Format

You said there was no litmus test, but then you provided one. Your litmus test is: "A guy should get his number retired (or get into the HHOF) if nobody argues about it."

But not everyone is Gretzky, Yzerman, or Lidstrom, and there are people in the HHOF (and with retired numbers around the league) where people did debate it. Dino Ciccarelli is one of my favorite all-time players. I have a signed North Stars puck from him in my basement. Yet, as a 600-goal scorer, he couldn't get into the HHOF until 2010, and none of his 5 teams (to my knowledge, have retired his number). That there was "debate" about Ciccarelli (or about Sawchuk's #1 retirement) doesn't make him any less deserving of the honor - you either are or you aren't.

The bottom line about the Fedorov haters is this: They believe, rightly or wrongly, don't believe that that he cares about them or the honor of wearing the Winged Wheel. A lot of that has to do with the Russian thing, but that's not the only reason.

But I don't really care what it means to the player, frankly, so long as the accomplishments and dedication on the ice hold up, and I'm not sure why other people do care (or even think they could know that). If that really mattered, then why honor Sawchuk 24 years after he died? Terry wasn't around to appreciate it, and you can't really tell me that you care what it means to his family. Sawchuk's play meant something to the fans and the organization, and to me, that's what should matter.

[drwscc]

You said there was no litmus test, but then you provided one. Your litmus test is: "A guy should get his number retired (or get into the HHOF) if nobody argues about it." But not everyone is Gretzky, Yzerman, or Lidstrom, and there are people in the HHOF (and with retired numbers around the league) where people did debate it.

That's kind of the point. These are honors for the best of the best. Who wants to be part of a HOF that includes scrubs that got in on a technicality. (Well, he did win 300 games, so I guess he should get in.) Where is the honor in that? It's the HOF/Jersey retirement, not a participation ribbon.

Dino Ciccarelli is one of my favorite all-time players. I have a signed North Stars puck from him in my basement. Yet, as a 600-goal scorer, he couldn't get into the HHOF until 2010, and none of his 5 teams (to my knowledge, have retired his number). That there was "debate" about Ciccarelli (or about Sawchuk's #1 retirement) doesn't make him any less deserving of the honor - you either are or you aren't.

Because he's your favorite player doesn't necessarily mean he needs to be in the HOF or have his jersey retired, Lot's of people like Darren McCarty, but noone is advocating for him to get in or get a jersey retired. If the total package is there for enshrinement, then absolutely get them in there. It's one of those situations though where if there is enough sentiment against, or you have to fight really hard to defend the selection, then you're not really dealing with the best of the best. You're dealing with "pretty good."

The bottom line about the Fedorov haters is this: They believe, rightly or wrongly, don't believe that that he cares about them or the honor of wearing the Winged Wheel. A lot of that has to do with the Russian thing, but that's not the only reason.

Or, it could be people just don't see enough there to qualify him for the honor. Do you think Ozzie should have his jersey retired? I mean, he has so many wins and playoff wins, and Cups, right? I know there are people that want this to happen, but it's just not logical. At the end of the day, these honors should be reserved for the Yzermans, Howes, Orrs, Lidstroms, Gretzkys, Richards, Roys. That's a hard club to crack, but it should be.

[StormJH1]

That's kind of the point. These are honors for the best of the best. Who wants to be part of a HOF that includes scrubs that got in on a technicality. (Well, he did win 300 games, so I guess he should get in.) Where is the honor in that? It's the HOF/Jersey retirement, not a participation ribbon.



Because he's your favorite player doesn't necessarily mean he needs to be in the HOF or have his jersey retired, Lot's of people like Darren McCarty, but noone is advocating for him to get in or get a jersey retired. If the total package is there for enshrinement, then absolutely get them in there. It's one of those situations though where if there is enough sentiment against, or you have to fight really hard to defend the selection, then you're not really dealing with the best of the best. You're dealing with "pretty good."



Or, it could be people just don't see enough there to qualify him for the honor. Do you think Ozzie should have his jersey retired? I mean, he has so many wins and playoff wins, and Cups, right? I know there are people that want this to happen, but it's just not logical. At the end of the day, these honors should be reserved for the Yzermans, Howes, Orrs, Lidstroms, Gretzkys, Richards, Roys. That's a hard club to crack, but it should be.

I won't get annoyed because I don't think you exactly read what I wrote. I never said that Ciccarelli should get in to the HHOF because he's one of my favorite players. Nor did I say he should have his number retired on the Wings or anywhere else. The point is that "unanimity of opinion" is NOT the standard, nor should it be. The baseball HOF lets people in after years of debate and a 75% vote, and there's always a few people who can argue anything.

You're arguing for a higher standard in the HHOF and especially for the Wings # retirements. I respect that. And no, I would not retire Osgood's number or Shanahan's. I actually place Fedorov ahead of both of those two, and by quite a wide margin. If Fedorov is the "line", and an example of what you have to be "better" than to get a retired number in JLA, then so be it.

But if so, please recognize that neither Datsyuk or Zetterberg (both already beyond the physical "peaks" of their career) have virtually no shot of earning that honor either. Neither of them is as important of a player as Fedorov was, and it's unlikely that they will do anything in the next 5 years to change my mind (even another Cup).

Again, if you're fine with a standard where only the blatantly freaking obvious guys receive that honor, your opinion is as good as mine. My view of the number retirement is that there is a minimum level of accomplishment you need to have to be considered, but that the number retirements should ideally reflect the important players of different eras of competitive Wings teams. The reason the Wings were able to be so selective, frankly, is that the team wasn't all that good from about 1960 to the late 1980's. Other teams like Montreal and Toronto have had to do the "ring of honor" thing or just have a crapload of retired numbers for sustained success.

[drwscc]

The baseball hall of fame is terrible. It's full of scrubs that just played long enough to hit the magic cutoff of numbers you're referring to, and has lots of marginal players that got in that way. I don't see why you would want that. I don't think the requirement should be "If I say a name, you remember who that guy is even if he wasn't on your team." It just seems silly.

Look, if they did a ring of honor thing, like the Dallas Cowboys do, I'd absolutely say Feds should be there. I think Feds should make the HHOF with no problem. But jersey retirement is and should be, to quote the VP, a big f-ing deal. Also, I never advocated for Dats and Z to be retired either. Do I think they have the potential? Sure, but they're not locks. If we move into dead things phase 2, absolutely not.

[LeftWinger]

So, another thought of mine would be to have Sergei sign a one game contract to play for the Red Wings and then retire in the jersey he belongs in....if it won't be retired, at least let him retire in it. One game, league minimum, retire. We will see then, when he doesn't get booed...#91 may not belong in the rafters, but #91 belongs on the JLA ice...one more time.

[StormJH1]

So, another thought of mine would be to have Sergei sign a one game contract to play for the Red Wings and then retire in the jersey he belongs in....if it won't be retired, at least let him retire in it. One game, league minimum, retire. We will see then, when he doesn't get booed...#91 may not belong in the rafters, but #91 belongs on the JLA ice...one more time.

I recall an interview with Holland where they talked about acquiring him at the deadline (I feel like this was '09, but could have been '08), and he referred to there being "mixed feelings" in the organization about bringing him back. But again, we're talking about post-lockout Fedorov, who I fully admit, was more or less washed up. I think the way he played for other teams from '05 to '09 did more to damage his reputation than any of the residual stuff from when he was here. There's an entire generation of new fans that only know him as that non-descript Russian who was hurt all the time and scored 15 goals a year.

Then again, keep in mind that Bobby Orr's career was basically done by the time he was 29. What if Orr's knees had been just good enough to let him play through the year, but rendered him a below average defenseman for 5 more years? It's the Sandy Koufax effect.