96 replies to this topic

[The Axe]

i understand enforcers sticking up for their star players when they get hit, even if the hit is clean. wings had players like that in the past. go ahead and try to fight kronwall, tootoo burt or ab will step in goon style now that kronwall is one of our stars


some players fight, some players dont. just because he is a big hitter doesnt mean he has to fight.

Kronwall shouldnt skate away

[St. Michael (the Red Wing)]

I voted no and here's why. The game is changing folks. Whether for good or bad...

10 years ago or longer I probably would have said yes, Kronwall should answer the call. But he doesn't have to now. IMO I see the enforcer part of the game slowly disappearing as part of the reason for this. Either way it's a good debate for this thread. My family is die-hard Sharks fans and they think Kronwall is legit even if he doesn't have to fight. My pops thinks Kronners is one of the best complete D-Man in the league coming from a Sharkies fan that's a big lol

Edited by St. Michael (the Red Wing), 19 August 2012 - 02:34 AM.

[WorkingOvertime]

Sorry, I'm just not sold on the deaths of Boogaard, Belak, Rypien, and to an extent Probert being due to hits more-so than the fights. If it was Kayira-type players dying in the off-season then I'd side with hitting being worse than repeated punches to the skull, but that's not the case.

I played Juniors, I played semi-pro, I saw first hand the dread that enforcers had of their next fight, and knowing damn well the only way they can get that next paycheck is to go out and fight.



I just don't see the need for it to continue, it's a hazardous unhealthy job, I understand enforcers always have a choice, they don't have to pursue NHL fighting, but once you reach that point in juniors, that's your job if you ever want to play in the NHL. I think the NHL needs to outlaw it and save these player's from themselves, I don't see a reason the NHL should keep promoting fighting. I understand hitting would be next, I wouldn't like it, but if it will end up saving lives then I might change my mind, but I can't recall an NHLer that died prematurely due to hits, that didn't have a premature heart condition, or a situation like Masterson's. It took Ludek Cajka's death for no touch icing to be introduced for example.

Terrence Tootoo, Trevor Ettinger, Don Sanderson(hit head on ice after fight), Boogard, Rypien all died do to suicide/drugs, all were heavily involved with fighting. Only two other cases of drug/suicide the past ten years that weren't enforcers, Roman Lyashenko, Tom Cavangah(was hospitalized several for schizophrenia).

Selected stories do not prove causality. More injuries do occur in the NHL from hitting than from fighting.

You're arguing a mental aspect of enforcers, not the physical. Are enforcers more likely to abuse drugs, or are drug abusers more likely to be enforcers? These issues are generally long-standing, and began before the player had their first NHL fight. Pronger, Savard, Sauer, Crosby, etc have all missed major time, or will not play again, due to head injuries. The physical effects are the same, but the mental aspect may be different.

NFL players have had similar issues, but they do not fight. Unfortunately, these situations occur with contact sports.

[55fan]

I voted yes, but only for dirty hits.

I don't like fights for clean hits. I seriously hate it when there's a clean hit and the opposing team mills around and both teams are pushing and shoving and facewashing each other whilst the injured player lies on the ground at their feet within inches of their blades. That Havsplat was a thing of beauty, but I can't watch the aftermath. I was so scared he was going to get stepped on.

I'm an admitted Kronwall fan and enforcer slappie, and I think that if he throws a dirty hit that he should have to answer for it, but I hope it never happens. Not just because he's our #1 d-man, but because I have a bad feeling he'd have his rump handed to him.

[newfy]

I wouldnt mind seeing him step up and get in even one fight this season just to see what he has. After a big momentum changing hit, Kronwall turtling like he did after his hit on Hemsky must deflate A LOT of that momentum. And its not like it would kill the team that much if he got in a couple fights a year, he would get an instigator call aganist the other team all the time which would lead to a powerplay.

I think it would be nice to see him do it to get the respect of the players around the league. I remember watching a video about Lapperriere where he said he had to start fighting more because alot of the vets on his team didnt want to start getting ran because of what he does on the ice.

[frankgrimes]

Diry hit? Absolutely
Clean hit? Hell no

As it stands right now he is our top pairing defenseman with White (I know that is bad), but losing him after a fight would probably kill our playoff chances. That said I think we should take a good look at Jay Rosehill, he is UFA, cheap and one of the better fighters in the game plus a decent skater.

[Detroit # 1 Fan]

Pair Kronwall with Smith. Then after a big hit, you sure as hell will get an answer from Brendan, Kronwall is too important now to be fighting, plus I bet he'd be a terrible fighter. (Kesler sucks)

[sleepwalker]

I'd just like to point out that there is a big difference between leaving your feet to jump into a player, and leaving your feet slightly AFTER impact due to the momentum.

[Carman]

Selected stories do not prove causality. More injuries do occur in the NHL from hitting than from fighting.

You're arguing a mental aspect of enforcers, not the physical. Are enforcers more likely to abuse drugs, or are drug abusers more likely to be enforcers? These issues are generally long-standing, and began before the player had their first NHL fight. Pronger, Savard, Sauer, Crosby, etc have all missed major time, or will not play again, due to head injuries. The physical effects are the same, but the mental aspect may be different.

NFL players have had similar issues, but they do not fight. Unfortunately, these situations occur with contact sports.

you're right I am arguing the mental aspect of the position enforcers are in causes more mental harm. I'm not discussing the injuries hitting verse fighting causes, I'm discussing deaths.

How many of these hits have caused suicides? I understand that it's not clear cut scientific data, but just from my personal experience and viewpoint it make sense to me that the enforcing position in hockey is very unhealthy much more-so than hitting, as evidenced by the death's of Terrence Tootoo, Trevor Ettinger, Don Sanderson, Boogard, Rypien, and Belak.

Who has died from a hit on the ice? I guess we can use heart illness that triggers from hits, if we do that we have one Markus Wächter, that died due to complications stemming from a bodycheck, but was later announced he had a heart illness. So over the same period of time it's a 6 to 1 ratio on deaths of fighters to non fighters.

[TheXym]

I'd just like to point out that there is a big difference between leaving your feet to jump into a player, and leaving your feet slightly AFTER impact due to the momentum.

This is a big point. If it's a clean hit, no way he ahould have to fight. If it's a dirty hit, then yes. Too many players seem to be getting rankled over clean hits. Keep your head up.

[martinezsvsu]

i wouldnt mind it if the player he hits is the player he fights. i just wouldnt want him fighting a big enforcer because idk how he would do in a fight. pretty sure hes never fought in a game before

[kipwinger]

Needing to fight after legal hits isn't too far from needing to fight after legal goals.

Based on this interview with Lucic it sounds like its not uncommon to have a fight after a legit goal, or a legit hit, or just because you feel like your guys are a little sluggish. Anyway, tons of reason to fight which don't involve retaliation for something dirty.

[Johnz96]

i wouldnt mind it if the player he hits is the player he fights. i just wouldnt want him fighting a big enforcer because idk how he would do in a fight. pretty sure hes never fought in a game before

He'd get killed

[Red Wings Addict]

Pair Kronwall with Smith. Then after a big hit, you sure as hell will get an answer from Brendan, Kronwall is too important now to be fighting, plus I bet he'd be a terrible fighter. (Kesler sucks)

I think they're going to pair Kronwall with Ericsson. They've been telling Ericsson for the past few years to pattern his game after Stuart's. In that sense, it's only fitting that he becomes Kronwall's dmen partner if they believe Ericsson can be a suitable replacement for the Kronwall-Stuart combination that worked well in the past. My impression is that they're more than willing to at least try out the pairing.

[Dabura]

Kronwall's pretty much our most important player now, IMO. If he goes down for, say, two months? Imagine a two-month-long losing streak.

[F.Michael]

Back in the 80's, and even up to the late 90's Kronwall would've been forced to stand up for himself - clean hit, or not...Intimidation had it's role back then.

With that being said - today's game is much different, and with the rules in place he doesn't have to worry as much about retaliation - although getting jumped can still happen.

[F.Michael]

I don't think he should have to fight for clean hits, but having said that, I'm really surprised that more teams don't make him...or someone else on the team. The fact that he does it and gets away with it so much is a real surprise.

Note: On a positive note, seems like we'll never have to ask this question about Smith.

Years ago it didn't matter if the hit was deemed "clean", or "dirty"...You touch Gretzky - Semenko, or McSorley would come after you...Go after Stevie - Probert, Kocur, or Gallant would get in your face.

How times have changed.

[Red Wings Addict]

Kronwall's pretty much our most important player now, IMO. If he goes down for, say, two months? Imagine a two-month-long losing streak.

That's what kind of sucks with having Kronwall as the #1 dman. I think he played every game last season but overall his history still says injury prone. Definitely a legit concern.

[haroldsnepsts]

Back in the 80's, and even up to the late 90's Kronwall would've been forced to stand up for himself - clean hit, or not...Intimidation had it's role back then.

With that being said - today's game is much different, and with the rules in place he doesn't have to worry as much about retaliation - although getting jumped can still happen.

Not really, unless he went after a star player.

Back in the 80s and into the 90s players actually accepted that a clean hard hit was part of the game. They'd take a number and get him back later.

Players jumping guys for throwing a clean hard hit is a relatively recent development.

[hillbillywingsfan]

Not really, unless he went after a star player.

Back in the 80s and into the 90s players actually accepted that a clean hard hit was part of the game. They'd take a number and get him back later.

Players jumping guys for throwing a clean hard hit is a relatively recent development.

How many times did konstantinov have to "answer" the bell after a clean hit?