[Retired] Official Lockout Thread

[Nightfall 871]

I realize that there is a lot more that must be negotiated, but if the League isn't going to budge on either "make whole" or the "honouring of signed contracts" (or both), these negotiations are doomed.

I can't help but think that if Uncle Gary hadn't shouted "LOCKOUT", there would be hockey right now and negotiations would be at the very same

position.

There would be hockey, but no negotiations if that happened. Fehr and the players had ZERO incentive to get a deal done under the last proposal. They would have played under that until the deal wasn't good for them anymore and then they would have stepped forward to the negotiating table.

[chances14 227]

I realize that there is a lot more that must be negotiated, but if the League isn't going to budge on either "make whole" or the "honouring of signed contracts" (or both), these negotiations are doomed.

I can't help but think that if Uncle Gary hadn't shouted "LOCKOUT", there would be hockey right now and negotiations would be at the very same

position.

they have budged on the make whole but the pa didn't like that the nhl's proposal was based on projected growth. to me that's hypocrisy at it's finest. every pa proposal has been based on projected growth and they mentioned no concerns about if those numbers would be reached, but when the nhl throws the projected growth back at them, they all of a sudden have doubts about whether the numbers can be reached.

[chances14 227]

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/opinion/2012/11/gloves-are-off-between-nhl-players-union.html

[cusimano_brothers 1,655]

There would be hockey, but no negotiations if that happened. Fehr and the players had ZERO incentive to get a deal done under the last proposal. They would have played under that until the deal wasn't good for them anymore and then they would have stepped forward to the negotiating table.

There is always ways to improve the employees' position during collective bargaining negotiations. They are working to create a deal that is best for themselves; there is absolutely nothing wrong with that line of thinking. The recently expired CBA was not the "end-all and be-all" deal. You can't get it unless you ask for it.

Uncle Gary's "trojan horse" routine isn't working.

The NHLPA's executive director is driving the NHL and its bargaining team crazy.

Good!

[Hockeytown0001 7,652]

Someone throw an octopus at Fehr's face.

[Guest The Axe]

Getting closer at least.

[Nightfall 871]

There is always ways to improve the employees' position during collective bargaining negotiations. They are working to create a deal that is best for themselves; there is absolutely nothing wrong with that line of thinking. The recently expired CBA was not the "end-all and be-all" deal. You can't get it unless you ask for it.

I wasn't saying that the CBA was the end-all and be-all deal. I was saying that the players had zero incentive to change it because the deal benefited them the most. If the NHL played hockey this year, then the players would have just sat on the deal and not negotiated at all. Why negotiate a deal that benefits the players the most?

[cusimano_brothers 1,655]

Getting a better deal, in ALL aspects of a collective bargaining agreement, IS incentive to try and reach a new deal, no matter how long or when it gets done.

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

The reality is that with the amount of concessions the owners are asking for, there's no way the union would ever agree to anything close to what the league wants until they've lost paychecks and had their careers shortened.

The owners are using lost games and paychecks as their best leverage. There's no way they'd ever start a season without a new CBA. In the exact same way, a deal wouldn't have been struck earlier no matter when they started negotiations. Players had paychecks coming and were busy playing hockey. There's no way they'd agree to the league's terms.

[Nightfall 871]

Getting a better deal, in ALL aspects of a collective bargaining agreement, IS incentive to try and reach a new deal, no matter how long or when it gets done.

The players were not going to get a better deal. They knew that.

[chances14 227]

fehr said yesterday that they were closer on economics than the nhl thought. yet in the memo leaked a night earlier, he said they was still a lot of work to be done, bridges to be crossed, and a significant gap in the make whole. not sure what that's all about.

this might be one of the reasons why negotiations didn't go well yesterday

Yesterday just started on bad footing when the league and union were supposed to meet at 10 a.m. The union kept the league waiting until 4 p.m., something the Fehrs have done a handful of times throughout this lockout.

Then, instead of responding to the NHL’s proposals on revenue sharing and split of revenues, Don Fehr tried to demonstrate on paper how the two sides mathematically were “much closer together” than the league thought. The league disagreed, and things were off to a bad start and almost instantaneously went into private caucuses.

Edited November 11, 2012 by chances14

[Nightfall 871]

this might be one of the reasons why negotiations didn't go well yesterday

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Bettman and Fehr are not bargaining in good faith. Too much gamesmanship going on between the two. Which is why, when you factor in all of professional sports, the Fehr and Bettman lockouts have cost their respective clubs over 2,000 games combined.

[Hockeytown0001 7,652]

How long till Fehr is canned?

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

How long till Fehr is canned?

Why would Fehr be canned?

The NHLPA has been a mess over the years but this seems the most stable they've been in a while.

And though people like to point to Fehr's strike that cost the MLB playoffs in 95 they overlook the massive collusion he busted the league on and the fact that he negotiated to two CBA's after 95 and that there's been labor peace in baseball since that strike.

Gary Bettman has never negotiated a CBA without a work stoppage. Fehr has. Twice.

[Guest irishock]

Tim Thomas won't miss any games when he returns.

[Nightfall 871]

Why would Fehr be canned?

The NHLPA has been a mess over the years but this seems the most stable they've been in a while.

And though people like to point to Fehr's strike that cost the MLB playoffs in 95 they overlook the massive collusion he busted the league on and the fact that he negotiated to two CBA's after 95 and that there's been labor peace in baseball since that strike.

Gary Bettman has never negotiated a CBA without a work stoppage. Fehr has. Twice.

Negotiating labor peace in the past does not excuse the gamesmanship that Fehr is demonstrating now. I think it is a no-brainer that Bettman should be fired, but the behavior of the league in these negotiations cannot be excused. Showing up late for meetings, not willing to bargain while last season was ongoing, and so on. The list just keeps going on and on.

[cusimano_brothers 1,655]

How long till Fehr is canned?

Blame Fehr? You might as well; it'll take the pressure off Canada.

Edited November 11, 2012 by cusimano_brothers

[cusimano_brothers 1,655]

I think it is a no-brainer that Bettman should be fired, but the behavior of the league in these negotiations cannot be excused.

You took the words right out of my mouth.

[Nightfall 871]

You took the words right out of my mouth.

I meant the players, but whatever.

[frankgrimes 1,836]

At this point I really don't care anymore, they are meeting fine start the season whenever, but

seriously there needs to be an anti strike/lockout clause for the next CBA because this is turning into a big gongshow. I don' t care about the stupid PR war ge t a deal done or don't and for the NHL trying to pressure Fehr lol what a bunch of clowns. They either present a deal both can liife with fine or not.

I mean even 60 games would mean a real heavy load of games so..

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

At this point I really don't care anymore, they are meeting fine start the season whenever, but

seriously there needs to be an anti strike/lockout clause for the next CBA because this is turning into a big gongshow. I don' t care about the stupid PR war ge t a deal done or don't and for the NHL trying to pressure Fehr lol what a bunch of clowns. They either present a deal both can liife with fine or not.

I mean even 60 games would mean a real heavy load of games so..

This will never happen, but the best way to get back at these clowns is if the fans stopped going to games. Let them play in arenas that are half-empty or even a quarter full.

Then, they'll realize that fans are actually important to their revenue. Right now, their feeling is that people will go to games no matter what. Very arrogant attitude. Kind of like oil companies. Except, I don't think hockey is as necessary to people as gasoline.

Bottom line, the fans should boycott. I'm talking about all fans, whether they be hardcore season ticket holders or not.

[chances14 227]

Why would Fehr be canned?

The NHLPA has been a mess over the years but this seems the most stable they've been in a while.

And though people like to point to Fehr's strike that cost the MLB playoffs in 95 they overlook the massive collusion he busted the league on and the fact that he negotiated to two CBA's after 95 and that there's been labor peace in baseball since that strike.

Gary Bettman has never negotiated a CBA without a work stoppage. Fehr has. Twice.

fehr didn't end the 95 strike. the courts decided it for him. put an injuction on the owners.

Blame Fehr? You might as well; it'll take the pressure off Canada.

both sides are at fault here. i think that's pretty obvious by now.

[Nightfall 871]

Bottom line, the fans should boycott. I'm talking about all fans, whether they be hardcore season ticket holders or not.

I agree 100%. I have already decided I won't be buying any tickets to any NHL games for a while. I certainly hope other fans do the same thing. With so much being put on gate receipts in the NHL, its important for fans to speak out against the actions of the NHL and NHLPA. The only money the NHL will see from me is what money they get from airing the games on TV and whatever money they get from me going to AHL games. I would rather watch local hockey than support the owners or players of the NHL. I certainly hope other fans follow suit.

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

fehr didn't end the 95 strike. the courts decided it for him. put an injuction on the owners.

both sides are at fault here. i think that's pretty obvious by now.

Technically the players voted to end the strike if the courts supported the unfair labor practices complaint.

But if you reread my post you'll see I never claimed Fehr ended the strike. I said he's negotiated two CBA's after that without any work stoppage. There has been labor peace in baseball ever since the 95 strike.

Bettman on the other hand has never negotiated a CBA without locking the players out. Three CBA negotiations. Three lockouts. More lost games than any of the other major sports. He's not the only one at fault, but I think that track record is pretty damning.

I'm not claiming Fehr is innocent, but painting a bigger picture of Fehr's role in CBA negotiations beyond the 95 strike that everyone keeps referring to.

When they do finally agree on a CBA, the most important part will be the date it expires so we know when Bettman will lock players out again and can plan accordingly.

Negotiating labor peace in the past does not excuse the gamesmanship that Fehr is demonstrating now. I think it is a no-brainer that Bettman should be fired, but the behavior of the league in these negotiations cannot be excused. Showing up late for meetings, not willing to bargain while last season was ongoing, and so on. The list just keeps going on and on.

Remember how we talked about there not being any point in discussing this with each other and not replying ?

I think that's still the best choice.

[toby91_ca 620]

I wasn't saying that the CBA was the end-all and be-all deal. I was saying that the players had zero incentive to change it because the deal benefited them the most. If the NHL played hockey this year, then the players would have just sat on the deal and not negotiated at all. Why negotiate a deal that benefits the players the most?

What is it about the last CBA that benefited the players the most? I know the owners certainly thought they won big getting that one.