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uk_redwing

[Retired] Official Lockout Thread

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to me, i think the nhl believes that by artificially restricting market value of players, the poorer teams will be able to keep their star players for cheaper, thus diminishing the disparity between the rich and poor teams. they don't want to have another small market team go through what nashville did this summer with shea weber. they were essentially handcuffed into accepting a deal that they know they can't afford, but had to accept if they wanted to remain competitive and appealing to their fan base.

That may be an argument against the front loaded deals, particularly those with large signing bonuses, but pushing UFA eligibility back a year does nothing in that respect, nor would changes to arbitration, nor ELC term. The link to revenue guarantees that a certain amount of money has to be spent.

Furthermore, a 5 year max contract and 5% variance isn't going to make someone like Weber any cheaper in the short term. He wouldn't have signed a 5 year deal for a sub-$8M cap hit. Likely would have been much closer to the $13.6M average he's getting for the first five years. Probably would raise the price for his later years as well.

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to me, i think the nhl believes that by artificially restricting market value of players, the poorer teams will be able to keep their star players for cheaper, thus diminishing the disparity between the rich and poor teams. they don't want to have another small market team go through what nashville did this summer with shea weber. they were essentially handcuffed into accepting a deal that they know they can't afford, but had to accept if they wanted to remain competitive and appealing to their fan base.

Holmgren,forcing hands since 2006. #Bizzaro-Holland

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Well there is no way the players are going to give up money and their contract rights. So at some point the NHL has to face the reality here, nobody and really nobody forced Nashville to match the offersheet they did so and now have to pay a huge junk of money for an elite defenseman, a guy who could easily become the next Chara.

I mean think about it, you are getting drafted by a team you don't want to play for for whatever reason, most players have to wait for years to get out (becoming UFA), why would they accept to lose another year of their career playing fo r an unwanted team? If the players bite on the 50/50 crap, the NHL should keep the status quo in terms of contracts otherwhise there is no deal to be made anytime soon.

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Not exactly. The PA is asking for a fixed dollar amount rather than a certain percentage. Depending on actual revenue, the percentage could be a wide range, though at least one previous proposal contained conditions such that it could not be more than 57% or less than 50%.

The article does seem to suggest that the PA wants the league to bear the losses from the missed games (I would be inclined to agree except the fight would likely be more than it's worth), though the comment from Fehr suggests the PA just wants to save those talks until after the basic foundation is settled.

Ah, thanks for clarifying.

But I do have some questions.

1) What are the chances that the owners are willing to pay the losses from their own pocket? The longer the lockout continues the more games are lossed and the more the owners have to pay from their own pocket. Wouldn't that decrease the chances the owners are willing to pay it out of there own pocket?

2) In case the season is canceled, will the PA still demands that the owners pay the lost salaries from their own pocket (or maybe partially)?

3) Simple math used:

- Revenue was $3.3B last year = $1.89B salaries (57%)

- Revenue will be estimated $2.73B (they are talking about a 68-game schedule possible from 1st December, meaning 14 games are lost = 17% lost = 17% revenue lost) = $1.56B salaries (57%)

- That means a difference of $330M in player salaries...who's going to pay that?

Edited by RippedOnNitro

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Well there is no way the players are going to give up money and their contract rights. So at some point the NHL has to face the reality here, nobody and really nobody forced Nashville to match the offersheet they did so and now have to pay a huge junk of money for an elite defenseman, a guy who could easily become the next Chara.

I mean think about it, you are getting drafted by a team you don't want to play for for whatever reason, most players have to wait for years to get out (becoming UFA), why would they accept to lose another year of their career playing fo r an unwanted team? If the players bite on the 50/50 crap, the NHL should keep the status quo in terms of contracts otherwhise there is no deal to be made anytime soon.

And the owners rightfully so will not be giving up their money any time soon so the players can all go over seas to play I guess. If that's what they want so bad. The idiot players that are running their mouths to the media need to shut up and let the big boys negotiate and stop crying.

Edited by hillbillywingsfan

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Ah, thanks for clarifying.

But I do have some questions.

1) What are the chances that the owners are willing to pay the losses from their own pocket? The longer the lockout continues the more games are lossed and the more the owners have to pay from their own pocket. Wouldn't that decrease the chances the owners are willing to pay it out of there own pocket?

2) In case the season is canceled, will the PA still demands that the owners pay the lost salaries from their own pocket (or maybe partially)?

3) Simple math used:

- Revenue was $3.3B last year = $1.89B salaries (57%)

- Revenue will be estimated $2.73B (they are talking about a 68-game schedule possible from 1st December, meaning 14 games are lost = 17% lost = 17% revenue lost) = $1.56B salaries (57%)

- That means a difference of $330M in player salaries...who's going to pay that?

I'd say there's no chance the owners are or ever will be willing to bear full liability for losses stemming from the lockout. I'd expect salaries to be pro-rated for the number of games actually played, and at most the owners will still pay the full $149M make whole payment they've been proposing. Less if the pro-rated salaries work out to much more than 50% of actual revenue.

If the full season is lost, I'd expect players would just be out their full salaries. Once a deal is reached, it will be retro-active to the date the last CBA expired, so players might get a cut of any revenue earned this year, which probably isn't a whole lot.

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And the owners rightfully so will not be giving up their money any time soon so the players can all go over seas to play I guess. If that's what they want so bad. The idiot players that are running their mouths to the media need to shut up and let the big boys negotiate and stop crying.

Go away, Gary. No one likes you.

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That may be an argument against the front loaded deals, particularly those with large signing bonuses, but pushing UFA eligibility back a year does nothing in that respect, nor would changes to arbitration, nor ELC term. The link to revenue guarantees that a certain amount of money has to be spent.

Furthermore, a 5 year max contract and 5% variance isn't going to make someone like Weber any cheaper in the short term. He wouldn't have signed a 5 year deal for a sub-$8M cap hit. Likely would have been much closer to the $13.6M average he's getting for the first five years. Probably would raise the price for his later years as well.

as far as the elc term, they want to shorten it so that players for the most part don't reach free agency after their second contract, once you factor in the 5 year cap on contract length, which gives teams more control over that player. they want players to be more unproven when they come out of their elc so that they can sign them to cheaper deals just before they start to hit their prime, effectively trying to lower the market value of these players during their peak production years. they want to prevent the drew doughty contracts so to speak.

Edited by chances14

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Guest Johnz96

And the owners rightfully so will not be giving up their money any time soon so the players can all go over seas to play I guess. If that's what they want so bad. The idiot players that are running their mouths to the media need to shut up and let the big boys negotiate and stop crying.

Bettman's an idiot

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as far as the elc term, they want to shorten it so that players for the most part don't reach free agency after their second contract, once you factor in the 5 year cap on contract length, which gives teams more control over that player. they want players to be more unproven when they come out of their elc so that they can sign them to cheaper deals just before they start to hit their prime, effectively trying to lower the market value of these players during their peak production years. they want to prevent the drew doughty contracts so to speak.

Except with player compensation linked directly to revenue, it doesn't do anything to slow the inflation of player salaries. At most, some players end up making less while others (most likely the top UFAs) make even more. It may help low-budget teams afford their young stars more easily, and keep them a year longer, but at a cost of making it more difficult to keep them once they are eligible for UFA, and more difficult to add new UFAs.

Owners shouldn't be concerned with how the players divide their share among themselves. Certainly not so concerned to extend the lockout because of it.

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And the owners rightfully so will not be giving up their money any time soon so the players can all go over seas to play I guess. If that's what they want so bad. The idiot players that are running their mouths to the media need to shut up and let the big boys negotiate and stop crying.

Ya, get in your pen cattle.

How dare you have an opinion on your boss not letting you make a living.

You are a product and not a person.

You are under contract, that needs to be respected along with the man who signed it.

--PFFFFT--

Sounds like the only crying is from the turncoats on these boards and the PR boys running TSN right now.

A two week break was proposed, how is that negotiating???

Ian spoke up and threw Bettman under the bus, saying what all of us have said or thought at one point.

And what happened???

They got their asses back to the table, way to go and thank you Mr. White.

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Ya, get in your pen cattle.

How dare you have an opinion on your boss not letting you make a living.

You are a product and not a person.

You are under contract, that needs to be respected along with the man who signed it.

--PFFFFT--

Sounds like the only crying is from the turncoats on these boards and the PR boys running TSN right now.

A two week break was proposed, how is that negotiating???

Ian spoke up and threw Bettman under the bus, saying what all of us have said or thought at one point.

And what happened???

They got their asses back to the table, way to go and thank you Mr. White.

Great post thank you.

Love seeing classy guys like Toews, Suter and White voicing their understandable frustrations with mr. Midget and his BFF Jacobs.

A deal can get done soon but the NHL has to start being realistic!

Fehr is a great leader and the PA is not going to put up with all the crap, the NHL is trying (paid off idiots like Cox, focus groups or fanboy posters on some hockey forums).

But whatever the NHL is not going to recover easily this time, second lockout in seven years is hardly acceptable

Sent from my BlackBerry

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Great post thank you.

Love seeing classy guys like Toews, Suter and White voicing their understandable frustrations with mr. Midget and his BFF Jacobs.

A deal can get done soon but the NHL has to start being realistic!

Fehr is a great leader and the PA is not going to put up with all the crap, the NHL is trying (paid off idiots like Cox, focus groups or fanboy posters on some hockey forums).

But whatever the NHL is not going to recover easily this time, second lockout in seven years is hardly acceptable

Sent from my BlackBerry

Ohhhh but no one from the other side can say anything???? Sort of how this forum is now. Seems like we were just warned about complaining how others are posting but it seems like some can get away with it....oh well.

The only crying I see are the people crying about bettman and the players. or should I say "buttman" so you guys understand who i'm talking about.

Turn coats....give me a break.

Ya, get in your pen cattle.

How dare you have an opinion on your boss not letting you make a living.

You are a product and not a person.

You are under contract, that needs to be respected along with the man who signed it.

--PFFFFT--

Sounds like the only crying is from the turncoats on these boards and the PR boys running TSN right now.

A two week break was proposed, how is that negotiating???

Ian spoke up and threw Bettman under the bus, saying what all of us have said or thought at one point.

And what happened???

They got their asses back to the table, way to go and thank you Mr. White.

"how dare my boss make more than me...thats just stupid and soxors.....MOMMY!!!! THE PEOPLE THAT PAY FOR ME TO PLAY IN THIS GREAT LEAGUE WONT GIVE ME MORE THAN WHAT THEY MAKE!!!!......hahaha Yeah Whites childish comments made the nhl go back to the table. hahaha

Edited by hillbillywingsfan

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Ya, get in your pen cattle.

How dare you have an opinion on your boss not letting you make a living.

You are a product and not a person.

You are under contract, that needs to be respected along with the man who signed it.

--PFFFFT--

Sounds like the only crying is from the turncoats on these boards and the PR boys running TSN right now.

A two week break was proposed, how is that negotiating???

Ian spoke up and threw Bettman under the bus, saying what all of us have said or thought at one point.

And what happened???

They got their asses back to the table, way to go and thank you Mr. White.

LOL. so you're saying that the only reason why they are back negotiating tonight is because white called bettman an idiot? good lord....

we shouldn't be pro bettman or pro union, rather we should all be pro hockey. if your employees called you an idiot or a cancer (like versteeg said today on the radio) would that make you more willing to compromise?

Owners shouldn't be concerned with how the players divide their share among themselves. Certainly not so concerned to extend the lockout because of it.

agreed. the nhl said that it will be flexible on these the contracting issues if they can agree on the economics. we shall see.

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LOL. so you're saying that the only reason why they are back negotiating tonight is because white called bettman an idiot? good lord....

we shouldn't be pro bettman or pro union, rather we should all be pro hockey. if your employees called you an idiot or a cancer (like versteeg said today on the radio) would that make you more willing to compromise?

Thats what some I guess just don't get on here. And if you don't go with the herd you are a turncoat I guess.

Edited by hillbillywingsfan

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Darren Dreger@DarrenDreger

If a proposal(s) isn't made by the union, there doesn't appear to be a way to forward the negotiations.

Tues will be interesting. If players series of proposals materializes and address some concerns, talks on contract issues will pick up.

Message from the NHL to the players tonight was..."We need something," a framework on the economics to encourage the league to soften.

As we said before the meeting, we repeat post-meeting. NHL wants an understanding on the PA's economics before flexing on contract issues.

Nick Cotsonika@cotsonika

NHL won't engage on contracting because it does not want to discuss one issue in isolation. Everything is interconnected. (1)

That's why NHL has asked for the PA to make a full proposal.

so basically, the pa needs to come up with a proposal or else negotiations are going to go nowhere.

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Thats what some I guess just don't get on here. And if you don't go with the herd you are a turncoat I guess.

I agree we should be pro hockey, I just do not agree with Bettman's bargaining tactics, and his my way or the highway attitude. I like the fact that Fehr is standing strong for the players. Now do I think this lockout is stupid and pointless? Of course I do, both sides are being greedy, this should have been the easiest CBA ever, but I fall more on favouring the players here. They were guaranteed these contracts, now the owners are crying that they signed them.

Go fly a kite Bettman!

Edited by Euro_Twins

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I agree we should be pro hockey, I just do not agree with Bettman's bargaining tactics, and his my way or the highway attitude. I like the fact that Fehr is standing strong for the players. Now do I think this lockout is stupid and pointless? Of course I do, both sides are being greedy, this should have been the easiest CBA ever, but I fall more on favouring the players here. They were guaranteed these contracts, now the owners are crying that they signed them, go fly a kite!

i don't like bettman either and i hope he is gone soon after the next cba is signed. but i don't let the hate cloud my judgement and i certainly don't let it support players who call out the head nhl guys idiots and cancer as somehow being the right thing to do. it's unprofessional and does nothing positive whatsoever for getting hockey back.

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A deal can get done soon but the NHL has to start being realistic!

Fehr is a great leader and the PA is not going to put up with all the crap, the NHL is trying (paid off idiots like Cox, focus groups or fanboy posters on some hockey forums).

But whatever the NHL is not going to recover easily this time, second lockout in seven years is hardly acceptable

Yea Bettman and the 7 owners that back him are in a dream world. They're nothing compared to MLB, who Fehr took on and beat. Fehr probably hasn't even broken a sweat yet, is loving every minute of this, and is probably laughing and making jokes about Bettman behind closed doors. With the other 22 other owners putting pressure on Bettman to get a deal done, he better give in. Fans and advertisers are pissed, and there's a number of them who won't return. Bettman's self infalted ego has runied the game. The NHL will be lucky if it only takes them 3 years to recover. It'll probably take about 5.

I've been saying from the beginning Bettman won't be Commish when this is all done. I wouldn't be surprised if he'll be out of a job by the end of December. The only way we'll get a new CBA signed is if Bettman's gone. I laugh everytime I hear/read someone say he does what the owners tell him and they all back him. Bettman has his own agenda and he put himself in a position where it's almost impossible for him to be fired, however he's almost reached that point. This is similar to a country trying to get rid of a dictator.

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i don't like bettman either and i hope he is gone soon after the next cba is signed. but i don't let the hate cloud my judgement and i certainly don't let it support players who call out the head nhl guys idiots and cancer as somehow being the right thing to do. it's unprofessional and does nothing positive whatsoever for getting hockey back.

I hope more players call Bettman an idiot and a cancer. That's exactly what he is! It's time for him to either step down, or for him to be taken down. He won't step down, so it's time for Fehr and the PA to take him out, and I think that's why Fehr was hired, to take out Bettman. Bettman's easily the worst Commish in the history of sports, and the 2012-13 Lockout will be the worst decision a Commish has ever made.

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I hope more players call Bettman an idiot and a cancer

the only thing it can do is hamper negotiations and it makes the players look just as idiotic.

now if you care more about getting bettman fired than getting hockey back, which seems to be a very popular opinion around here, that's your choice and that's fine

i don't care who the commissioner is, i just want to watch red wings hockey again. players calling the commisoner an idiot and a cancer is not helping that whatsoever.

Edited by chances14

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I agree we should be pro hockey, I just do not agree with Bettman's bargaining tactics, and his my way or the highway attitude. I like the fact that Fehr is standing strong for the players. Now do I think this lockout is stupid and pointless? Of course I do, both sides are being greedy, this should have been the easiest CBA ever, but I fall more on favouring the players here. They were guaranteed these contracts, now the owners are crying that they signed them.

Go fly a kite Bettman!

So you don't agree with Bettman's bargaining tactics and his my way or the highway attitude. Yet when Fehr has the same bargaining tactics and his my way or the highway attitude, you consider it as "standing strong". Yet you say that both sides are being greedy. Hrm......

I hope more players call Bettman an idiot and a cancer. That's exactly what he is! It's time for him to either step down, or for him to be taken down. He won't step down, so it's time for Fehr and the PA to take him out, and I think that's why Fehr was hired, to take out Bettman. Bettman's easily the worst Commish in the history of sports, and the 2012-13 Lockout will be the worst decision a Commish has ever made.

That will cost a full season of hockey. Thats a high price to pay for the owners to just fire Bettman and then hire in another guy who could be worse than Bettman. After all, firing Bettman won't solve the problem of the owners. These same owners will select another leader who is similar to Bettman probably. If not the same, he will be worse.

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