roboginger 6 Report post Posted November 20, 2012 everyone is going to fall on one side of the other for the most part. i just wanna watch hockey 3 Hockeymom1960, Nightfall and haroldsnepsts reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Buppy 1,720 Report post Posted November 20, 2012 I checked out of this (depressing as all hell, yet informative) thread but assume that everybody is caught up to speed on the Michael Russo article indicating that the NHL has offered no better than a tiered reduction where their HRR share only gets down to 52.5%, and that's in the FIFTH year of the CBA. Primary blame still goes to the NHL, in my opinion, but if the NHL was willing to compromise on the "make whole" provision and the NHLPA couldn't find a way to get to 50% after a long phase-in....well, that starts to increase my anger toward the players. ... That's something of a misrepresentation of the PA proposal. The PA does not want the actual dollar value of the players' share to go down, so their plans have, for the most part, called for de-linking the share from revenue. They want to slow the growth of their share (dollar value) so league revenue growth results in a lower percentage. Therefore, the percentage depends entirely on growth. The current PA proposal is apparently a flat 1.75% increase in the players' share dollar value each year for five years. The Russo article you mention referenced charts from the league with estimated growth factors, and include estimated lockout damage. They anticipate a drop in revenue for the 12-13 season (obviously), then a modest recovery with the 13-14 season having slight growth over 11-12, and a more normal growth pattern in the following years. Of course, no one can predict either growth or what the long-term fallout from the lockout will be. There are plenty of reasons to be optimistic, as well as cause for concern. Even being just a little more optimistic than the leagues' charts would get it down to 50%. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hillbillywingsfan 792 Report post Posted November 20, 2012 (edited) oh my...When I say it's both sides I mean nhlpa AND bettmans fault...I don 't like either side...I don't stand closer to either side meaning I'm not going to do like "some" on here and say it's all bettmans and the owners fault . that doesn't mean that I'm all in on saying it's the nhlpa's fault either. Edited November 21, 2012 by haroldsnepsts edited to remove deleted quoted post Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sleepwalker 512 Report post Posted November 20, 2012 oh my...When I say it's both sides I mean nhlpa AND bettmans fault...I don 't like either side...I don't stand closer to either side meaning I'm not going to do like "some" on here and say it's all bettmans and the owners fault . that doesn't mean that I'm all in on saying it's the nhlpa's fault either. OK, fair enough. Almost everything I have seen you say up to this point though has been pro-league and anti-union/Fehr, so you can't blame me for thinking that. 1 roboginger reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hillbillywingsfan 792 Report post Posted November 21, 2012 OK, fair enough. Almost everything I have seen you say up to this point though has been pro-league and anti-union/Fehr, so you can't blame me for thinking that. Well I understand that but thats what happens when you have a discussion like this and have many saying that it is all Bettmans fault. I'm not really one to go with a trend just because someone comes up with a clever name for Bettman but I know that it does suck that we have had to go through this 3 times with him but im also not going to say it has been all his and the owners fault either. 1 Nightfall reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
haroldsnepsts 4,826 Report post Posted November 21, 2012 Everyone, please remember that this thread is for discussion of the lockout, meetings, etc. pointing out each other's posting style and viewpoints in a "gotcha" game isn't exactly staying on topic. Quoted as another reminder. When Jedi says to stay on topic about the lockout, that doesn't mean take your parting shots. Talk about the lockout and discuss the issues. Discuss the points people have made in their posts and not the people themselves. Discussions about who's on what side and what arguments they've made and anything along those lines will be deleted. It's really that simple. I've deleted some posts and edited a few that were mostly on topic. Please don't make me clean up threads when there's not even any hockey. Any future posts that go even partially off topic will be deleted entirely, even the on-topic portion. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kipwinger 8,522 Report post Posted November 21, 2012 I know that shop.nhl.com sells all kinds of merchandise with the names of players on the back. I don't recall ever seeing an "Official Gary Bettman Three-piece Suit" being for sale. That's interesting because I know shop.nhl.com sells all kinds of merchandise with team logos on the front. I don't recall ever seeing a player that owned a team before. Good try though. 1 hillbillywingsfan reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chances14 227 Report post Posted November 21, 2012 tsn guys on what to expect in meetings tomorrow http://watch.tsn.ca/nhl/clip810858#clip810858 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Johnz96 Report post Posted November 21, 2012 I am optimistic the NHLPA will come with a linked proposal, something like this: Year 1: 57.0% Year 2: 55.1% Year 3: 53.1% Year 4: 52.0% Year 5: 51.2% Based on 5% revenue growth annually + keeping old contracts at 57% value. If there is revenue growth the fans deserve a lockout when the new CBA expires 1 frankgrimes reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
frankgrimes 1,836 Report post Posted November 21, 2012 (edited) If there is revenue growth the fans deserve a lockout when the new CBA expires I hardly see a revenue grow, sponsors are pissed off so are fans, second lockout in 8 years and on top of that even the hotbed media in Toronto and Montreal stopped caring, this time it is really different compared to 2004/5. The NHL will be lucky to see 3,3 billion revenue after 5 years again, it will take a loooong time to recover (if it ever does). Edited November 21, 2012 by frankgrimes Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Johnz96 Report post Posted November 21, 2012 I hardly see a revenue grow, sponsors are pissed off so are fans, second lockout in 8 years and on top of that even the hotbed media in Toronto and Montreal stopped caring, this time it is really different compared to 2004/5. The NHL will be lucky to see 3,3 billion revenue after 5 years again, it will take a loooong time to recover (if it ever does). I hope you're right. Not to punish anyone but to save the game of hockey from the worst thing to ever happen to it. If there is a significant decline in revenue Bettman should get fired. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Euro_Twins 4,475 Report post Posted November 21, 2012 I hope you're right. Not to punish anyone but to save the game of hockey from the worst thing to ever happen to it. If there is a significant decline in revenue Bettman should get fired. I hope you're right. Not to punish anyone but to save the game of hockey from the worst thing to ever happen to it. If there is a significant decline in revenue Bettman should get fired. More so for everyone to give their heads a shake and realize where "their money" comes from, and how easily it can disappear! 1 frankgrimes reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
frankgrimes 1,836 Report post Posted November 21, 2012 More so for everyone to give their heads a shake and realize where "their money" comes from, and how easily it can disappear! Exactly, maybe this will be the best thing coming out of the lockout a dose of reality check for the holy NHL.......... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cusimano_brothers 1,655 Report post Posted November 21, 2012 That's interesting because I know shop.nhl.com sells all kinds of merchandise with team logos on the front. I don't recall ever seeing a player that owned a team before. Good try though. 1 kipwinger reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pskov Wings Fan 71 Report post Posted November 21, 2012 That's interesting because I know shop.nhl.com sells all kinds of merchandise with team logos on the front. I don't recall ever seeing a player that owned a team before. Good try though. It goes both ways. So people follow teams, others follow players. For example, somebody might buy Red Wings jersey for the logo on the front, but somebody else for the number 13 and Datsyuk's name on the back. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jedi 1,865 Report post Posted November 21, 2012 That's interesting because I know shop.nhl.com sells all kinds of merchandise with team logos on the front. I don't recall ever seeing a player that owned a team before. Good try though. http://shop.nhl.com/...ductId=13239192 http://sports.yahoo....hl-lockout.html He is an owner. He is a player. He is also a locked-out NHL player, a dues-paying member of a union – the NHL Players' Association – in a labor battle with owners. That creates a unique situation in Kladno, and that gives Jagr a unique perspective on the NHL lockout. Kevin McGran with the Toronto Star has an article out highlighting the issues in the CBA negotiations that have been agreed upon, close to agreement, and are still under discussion. I believe most of the issues they've agreed on, or are close to agreement, have been covered here already. But I thought this one was particularly intriguing, and I hadn't seen it mentioned... The Star has learned that the day free agents can talk to teams is expected to move from July 1 to mid- to late June. Various ideas had been proposed to get the day away from the holiday, including July 10 and Aug. 1. One strong idea has the market opening June 15, or 48 hours after the Stanley Cup is awarded — whichever is later — with no deals finalized until July 1. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jedi 1,865 Report post Posted November 21, 2012 A few tweets about the meetings, which should be underway by now. Too many individual tweets to link to, so I'm just linking to the source... NHLPA Players in NYC for CBA bargaining meetings today: Adam Burish, Chris Campoli, Dan Cleary, Mathieu Darche, Ron Hainsey, Shawn Horcoff Kevin Shattenkirk, Andy McDonald, (and) Dan Winnik. Aaron Ward In NYC for CBA meetings. Early indication,NHLPA has made a significant move in the direction of the owners. Bob McKenzie We're hearing today's NHLPA proposal to NHL will include increasing the NHL's $211M Make Whole provision by another $180M. We're also hearing the NHLPA proposal will work off a percentage of HRR -- as requested by NHL -- and not a guaranteed dollar amount. But what those percentages are, and whether the $180M increase in Make Whole acts as a guarantee of sorts, remains to be seen. Darren Dreger Players move off guaranteed dollars is a big move in the owners direction. Interested to hear NHL response to PA's ask for more Make Whole $ Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Johnz96 Report post Posted November 21, 2012 Most of my comments have been pointing out the fact that it's not all poo poo head bettmans fault. Hockey players are innately stupider and greedier than other athletes forcing Bettman to lock them out every time the CBA expires Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jedi 1,865 Report post Posted November 21, 2012 Aaron Ward's reporting that the CBA meeting is over for the morning. Fehr's addressing the media currently. The meeting only lasted about an hour. Fehr says the two sides will reconvene at 1pm EST. Chris Johnston with the Canadian Press... Donald Fehr says new proposal is "about as good we can do." Donald Fehr says sides are $182 million apart over the five-year deal. The NHLPA expects a response from the NHL on the new proposal this afternoon. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kipwinger 8,522 Report post Posted November 21, 2012 Yeah, that's a fairly significant oversight on my part. He voted for the lockout though, so my point is still the same. It goes both ways. So people follow teams, others follow players. For example, somebody might buy Red Wings jersey for the logo on the front, but somebody else for the number 13 and Datsyuk's name on the back. That wasn't the point I was making at all. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jedi 1,865 Report post Posted November 21, 2012 Interesting tidbit from Dreger... Fehr wouldn't confirm he was pushed to change PA's position in proposal, but, told he and hardliners had to be convinced to move. And Brad Richards sent LeBrun a text, saying... NYR star B. Richards via text on PA proposal: "It is a move in their direction again and based off of their proposal. There has to an effort from them to get this done now." Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rrasco 1,312 Report post Posted November 21, 2012 Thanks for the updates Jedi. Even though I'm sick of reading about the lockout in general. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cusimano_brothers 1,655 Report post Posted November 21, 2012 NHL superstar Sidney Crosby uttered the words hockey fans have been waiting months to hear. "We're making a move in their direction, so I don't see why they wouldn't consider it," Crosby told Shelly Anderson, who covers the Penguins for the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, Wednesday morning. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chances14 227 Report post Posted November 21, 2012 why do the players keep proposing such short cba's? i really don't want to have to deal with this in 5 years. should be at least 10 years Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jedi 1,865 Report post Posted November 21, 2012 Aaron Ward. Source,NHLPA proposal took NHL structure,50/50,no guarantee.Only difference,took $211M (make whole) to $393M over 4 yrs.This $393M works out to an added 1.2M per team,per year over 5 yrs of the deal.Player contracting-back diving-provides a measure that determines the added advantage gained if player retires early.Penalizes team going forward based on benefit obtained.No need for term limits or variation. Bob McKenzie breaks it down in a little simpler terms... So, to review, NHLPA is prepared to go to 50-50 immediately, but wants $393M over four years as part of so-called "Make Whole." Only system issue addressed is back-diving contracts (cap hit penalties for retired players) but not 5 per cent variance rule or term limits. Thanks for the updates Jedi. Even though I'm sick of reading about the lockout in general. Same here. Hoping that the new proposal today paves the way to real negotiations. A deal is so close, get it done boys! why do the players keep proposing such short cba's? i really don't want to have to deal with this in 5 years. should be at least 10 years Because 10 years out is far too long for the players and owners to agree to in this economy and under the current NHL economic system. Neither side wants to get screwed if the revenue either increases or decreases dramatically in 4 years, so they won't sign for such a long deal. And yes, I realize that the NFL just signed a 10 year CBA. But how many times have people said it's not fair to use other leagues as models? The NFL is a money making machine of GARGANTUAN proportions, so both sides there can afford to sign longer term deals. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
