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[Retired] Official Lockout Thread


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#2121 chances14

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 11:20 PM

That's not true, the owners budged on the arbitration issue and the free agency age. The players are not budging on front loaded contracts and cba length. Two things that pretty much all fans think should happen.


you're right. i meant to say contract length and variance.

#2122 rrasco

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 11:20 PM

Wait so I"m lost, you're in favor of the players negotiating off the contract term limits and the cba length? If so, would you also be in favor of the owners agreeing to 8 year contracts and an 8 year cba but for only 275 million in make whole, since we're NEGOTIATING off the first proposal?


No. Because you don't come off an offer you proposed. The players agreed to the $300M, they didn't ask for $325M. Now that the PA has offered 8 years on contract limits and 8 years on CBA term with an opt out at year 6, you wouldn't expect them to table an offer with longer terms than that at any point in the future.

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#2123 kipwinger

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 11:24 PM

No. Because you don't come off an offer you proposed. The players agreed to the $300M, they didn't ask for $325M. Now that the PA has offered 8 years on contract limits and 8 years on CBA term with an opt out at year 6, you wouldn't expect them to table an offer with longer terms than that at any point in the future.


You do come off it if you proposed it in a quid pro quo manner, as was made clear repeatedly by the ownership. You get 300 in exchange for 5 years contracts and a 10 year cba. It wasn't an open ended offer.

you're right. i meant to say contract length and variance.


Oh gotcha, I agree. The fact is, after today the NHL offered almost 100 million more in "make whole" and completely conceded arbitration and free agency and the players conceded nothing. Awesome.

GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

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#2124 chances14

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 11:27 PM

http://triblive.com/...ers-crosby-fehr

The owners, at the behest of Burkle, pushed for a 10-year term for the labor agreement in hopes of securing longstanding labor peace to rebuild confidence in the NHL brand among fans, sponsors and networks.
When the union resisted, it was amended to eight years, with a six-year opt-out clause for either side.
Fehr stuck by the original five years, insisting that “it’s not fair to the next generation of players to not have their own say.”


this sounds like a lame ass excuse to me

i can already predict what future players are going to say, "no more concessions!"

#2125 Euro_Twins

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 11:36 PM

You do come off it if you proposed it in a quid pro quo manner, as was made clear repeatedly by the ownership. You get 300 in exchange for 5 years contracts and a 10 year cba. It wasn't an open ended offer.



Oh gotcha, I agree. The fact is, after today the NHL offered almost 100 million more in "make whole" and completely conceded arbitration and free agency and the players conceded nothing. Awesome.


You misrepresented what I said, I don't care who is right or wrong I just want hockey. I think it is wrong for Bettman and Jacobs to throw temper tantrums and storm away yelling no more meetings because the PA tried to negotiate off their last proposal. If the PA did the same thing I would say they were being childish too. It seems everytime they get close to a deal Bettman gets fed up and stops negotiations.

#2126 kipwinger

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 11:44 PM

You misrepresented what I said, I don't care who is right or wrong I just want hockey. I think it is wrong for Bettman and Jacobs to throw temper tantrums and storm away yelling no more meetings because the PA tried to negotiate off their last proposal. If the PA did the same thing I would say they were being childish too. It seems everytime they get close to a deal Bettman gets fed up and stops negotiations.


No, I do understand what you're saying. What I'm saying is...if the owners said they would give 300 million in make whole, under the condition that the players accept the contracts length and cba length provisions, and the players did not accept those provisions, then you definitely pull the 300 million. The owners made one contingent on the other, and when that wasn't accepted, they pulled their offer.

I'm with you though, I don't care who's right, I want hockey. But when I see an offer that seems very fair to me, turned down because of something that almost all fans and owners want anyway (shorter contracts and longer cba), it's hard not to be pissed off at the union.

GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#2127 chances14

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 11:54 PM

tsn guys talking about where talks go from here


Dreger said "there are players and agents that believe fehr is trying to crash this deal"



#2128 kipwinger

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 11:58 PM

tsn guys talking about where talks go from here


No s***.

GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#2129 Euro_Twins

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 11:58 PM

No, I do understand what you're saying. What I'm saying is...if the owners said they would give 300 million in make whole, under the condition that the players accept the contracts length and cba length provisions, and the players did not accept those provisions, then you definitely pull the 300 million. The owners made one contingent on the other, and when that wasn't accepted, they pulled their offer.

I'm with you though, I don't care who's right, I want hockey. But when I see an offer that seems very fair to me, turned down because of something that almost all fans and owners want anyway (shorter contracts and longer cba), it's hard not to be pissed off at the union.


I agree with you, but I don't think throwing a temper tantrum and walking away was the right move, they should have said if you want 8 year deals and an 8 year cba then you get $240million on the make whole instead of 300

#2130 haroldsnepsts

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 12:02 AM

tsn guys talking about where talks go from here

:lol: Talk about cherry picking details.

I do agree with Dreger though that the players may have missed their best window. I hope Dreger is wrong about the hawks taking over on the league side.

More than anything I agree with Lebrun on how ridiculous it is that we're at this point on what should have been a relatively easy negotiation of splitting up such a massive increase in revenue.

#2131 Nightfall

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 12:02 AM

I agree with you, but I don't think throwing a temper tantrum and walking away was the right move, they should have said if you want 8 year deals and an 8 year cba then you get $240million on the make whole instead of 300

Just for reference....David Backes and other players walked out of the meeting as well. So if you are going to demonize the owners for that behavior, you have to levy the same criticism to the players who disagreed and left too.
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#2132 kipwinger

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 12:05 AM

I agree with you, but I don't think throwing a temper tantrum and walking away was the right move, they should have said if you want 8 year deals and an 8 year cba then you get $240million on the make whole instead of 300


that's exactly what I asked you on the last page, whether you'd be ok with that. I'd be ok with that too. We agree, it just took us a minute.

GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#2133 kipwinger

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 12:11 AM

:lol: Talk about cherry picking details.

I do agree with Dreger though that the players may have missed their best window. I hope Dreger is wrong about the hawks taking over on the league side.

More than anything I agree with Lebrun on how ridiculous it is that we're at this point on what should have been a relatively easy negotiation of splitting up such a massive increase in revenue.


I agree, I hope the union realizes that this might have been their best chance and figures something out. If not, then they've given all the hardline owners all the fuel they need to make this thing protracted. In which case we'll lose the season, and players will end up with a MUCH s***tier deal than the one the owners just proposed.

GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#2134 Euro_Twins

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 12:22 AM

that's exactly what I asked you on the last page, whether you'd be ok with that. I'd be ok with that too. We agree, it just took us a minute.


I don't think we ever really disagreed, we just misinterpreted what the other said

EDIT: or as the nhl/pa would say we were very close to a deal, but we differed on a few key issues which has caused us to break off talks for the next month

Edited by Euro_Twins, 07 December 2012 - 12:30 AM.


#2135 RippedOnNitro

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 05:33 AM

So if I am correct, the deal was not finalized because of the 5-year (or 7-year in case of re-sign) limit on contracts? How many players actually have longer contracts then that? Maybe 2%???

Is this issue really so important for the PA that they are willing to lose the entire season for it? It seems the owners have no problem with that...

And why did Fehr did not put the latest offer to vote to the players? Then you will really know if the players find these contract limits a real issue.

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#2136 frankgrimes

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 05:43 AM

Wow just wow, screw them:

The NHLPA made a great proposal and the blowfish group got greedy asking for even more, so in the end I'd say green light for decertification, teams like us will benefit heavily from that and no more bulls*** of growing the game.

Man if I were a player, after such pressers I'd be fully unloading on a certain guy.

Nobody is forcing the owners to hand out 8 year contracts, but they do provide safety for players and some are going to offer them.

Edited by frankgrimes, 07 December 2012 - 05:44 AM.

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#2137 cusimano_brothers

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 08:26 AM

Uncle Gary telling Donald Fehr how to negotiate. I laugh.
I haven't seen a head bob as much as Bettman's did at the podium since Muhammad Ali in his prime.
Uncle Gary is a putz.

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#2138 Nightfall

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 09:14 AM

This really is the most embarrassing negotiation session in the history of pro sports. Fehr and Bettman are out of the room, and progress is made. They come back in, and it all comes crashing down. Both these asshats need to be fired. There is no defending the NHL or NHLPA in these negotiations.

There is no defense for greed.
There is no defense for refusing to negotiate in good faith.
There is no defense for stall tactics
There is no defense for pontificating to the media after you don't get your way
There is no defense for leaving when your side doesn't get what they want
There is no defense for not taking calls from the other side, and there is no defense for leaving a voicemail message turning down a deal

Fans have to unite at this stage and be sure to speak with their wallets when the NHL does come back.

I am not spending any money on NHL tickets or merchandise for a long time. Both sides can go f*** themselves.

Edited by Nightfall, 07 December 2012 - 09:17 AM.

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#2139 drwscc

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 09:27 AM

Donald Fehr in a rare candid photo from his presser yesterday.
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#2140 rrasco

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 10:01 AM

You do come off it if you proposed it in a quid pro quo manner, as was made clear repeatedly by the ownership. You get 300 in exchange for 5 years contracts and a 10 year cba. It wasn't an open ended offer.


And that's the problem. The owners are making demands and throwing a fit if the PA didn't accept it. The PA should have just said, fine, we'll give you contract term and variance, we want our $389M in make-whole. Would that have been fair then?

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