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[Retired] Official Lockout Thread


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#2281 chances14

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 02:47 PM

The present can often give one a new perspective on the past. Many people may have been on the owners' side during the last lockout, but that doesn't mean the owners' were right or that the hard cap and 24% rollback were the right solution. Furthermore, even if the owners were right it doesn't mean Bettman is the right man to be leading negotiations.

At this point, it's safe to say a pattern has emerged. Three negotiations and three of the five longest work stoppages in pro sports. Almost no one from the players, owners, or PA leadership was around for the first lockout. Many have even changed since the second. But Gary has been a constant. Before Gary, Goodenow led a strike, but it lasted only 10 days and no games were missed. Fehr led one major strike, but also led two negotiations afterward that were resolved without a work stoppage.


it's been the culture for the last 20 years or so for the pa and league to hate each other. new members on both sides it seems have been brought up to despise the other side. we need a reset and it starts with cleaning house in the leadership roles on both sides.

You say it's "two sides unwilling to work together", but what does that even mean? Seems to me your definition of "working together" is just "reaching an agreement".

it means both sides hate each other and don't trust each other one iota and are constantly engaging in bad faith negotiating. we need 2 sides that concentrate more on getting a deal done than seeing who can negotiate in bad faith more.

I have no problem in supporting Mr. Fehr and the NHLPA. If you want something bad enough, you go out and put up a good fight to get it.


and the owners are doing exactly that as well, yet you criticize them for it. seems to me like a double standard.

#2282 cusimano_brothers

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 03:08 PM

and the owners are doing exactly that as well, yet you criticize them for it. seems to me like a double standard.


Lockout: the exclusion of employees by their employer from their place of work until certain terms are agreed to.

There's no mention of "bargaining in good faith" in the definition.

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#2283 Euro_Twins

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 03:25 PM

Lockout: the exclusion of employees by their employer from their place of work until certain terms are agreed to.

There's no mention of "bargaining in good faith" in the definition.


bam! lawyered!

#2284 Nightfall

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 03:38 PM

Lockout: the exclusion of employees by their employer from their place of work until certain terms are agreed to.

There's no mention of "bargaining in good faith" in the definition.

Apparently, whats good for the NHL is good for the NHLPA as well. While the NHL was busy lowballing the NHLPA, the NHLPA thought it best to return the favor by dragging their feet until the end of June and then deciding to "gather information" for 3 weeks before delivering a proposal. Neither side had the intention of bargaining in good faith.
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#2285 Jedi

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 04:21 PM

Dreger's tweeting that today's CBA meeting with mediators and discussion are currently only planned as a one-day event. So if we see another meeting scheduled for tomorrow, it can only be considered a good sign...

Mediation and discussion today planned as a 1-day exercise. If subsequent meeting is called for tomorrow that will be a good thing

...By good thing, I don't mean an indication a deal is imminent. Going into the day it didn't sound like NHL was willing to be flexible.


No news yet, however, how well today's meetings have gone...

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#2286 chances14

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 04:44 PM

Lockout: the exclusion of employees by their employer from their place of work until certain terms are agreed to.

There's no mention of "bargaining in good faith" in the definition.

i'm not sure what that has to do with the part of my post that you quoted

the owners are fighting tooth and nail for what they really want, just like the players are fighting for what they really want.

both sides have displayed acts of negotiating in bad faith throughout this process.

Edited by chances14, 12 December 2012 - 04:45 PM.


#2287 Nightfall

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 04:44 PM

Dreger's tweeting that today's CBA meeting with mediators and discussion are currently only planned as a one-day event. So if we see another meeting scheduled for tomorrow, it can only be considered a good sign...

No news yet, however, how well today's meetings have gone...

Here is to hoping the talks continue.
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#2288 rrasco

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 05:15 PM

Some tweets. Just to get your hopes up...

@wyshynski
Hear rumblings support staff called back/on standby for at least 2 NHL teams this week. Could be precautionary. "'Hopes, don't get up..."


@wyshynski
Hearing 2 other NHL teams have staff called back or on standby. That's 4 total. Again, could be precaution. s***'ll move fast after deal.


@cotsonika
Lots of signs individual teams, players gearing up. Hopeful? Just in case? Educated guessing? Know something?


@GMillerTSN
The consensus among NHL management types/agents here this morning is that there will definitely be a resolution to the lockout, and soon.


Jason Kay@JKTHN
Hearing owners reverted to $211M make whole offer as today's starting point (plus $50M for pension). Curious.


And hopes shattered...


ick Kypreos@RealKyper
#CBA meeting over. No progress. #NHL remains firm on "take it or leave it" last offer to #NHLPA.


And Wysh is putting this out there. Once again, proceed cautiously with hopes...

http://sports.yahoo....15098--nhl.html

"I have been talking to a number of teams on the continent today who have NHL guys on their rosters. It seems that quite a few of them have been told by their NHL agents today, to get ready to return within the next week. One GM told me today that a contact of his in the NHL had advised that they are now looking at 2nd January restart."


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#2289 RedWingsDad

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 05:22 PM

Chuck Norris should be called in as a mediator.
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#2290 vladdy16

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 05:23 PM


Nick Kypreos@RealKyper

#CBA meeting over. No progress. #NHL remains firm on "take it or leave it" last offer to #NHLPA.

Can't wait to read the "Phoenix: I still think it's a hockey market" chapter of Gary Bettman's autobiography. I'm guessing it's going to be chapter 11.

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#2291 rrasco

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 05:32 PM

Nick Cotsonika@cotsonika
Tough spot for Fehr and players. Must read whether NHL isn't bluffing this time, decide how far to keep pushing.


Nick Cotsonika@cotsonika
So NHL was bluffing when it took last offer off the table. But now NHL expects PA to buy that this is take it or leave it?



Nick Cotsonika@cotsonika
Another way to look at it: If Fehr thinks sides are so close and NHL offer is back on the table, it is worth fighting for any more?



Winging It In Motown@wingingitmotown
"Take it or it's off the table". Did you take it? No? It's off the table. We'll see you tomorrow to see if you'll take it.



Pat Leonard@NYDNRangers
I was just reminded: Tonight would've been Episode #1 of 24/7 #RedWings & #MapleLeafs on #HBO. But it isn't ... #BecauseItsTheLockout


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#2292 Echolalia

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 05:40 PM


That last tweet breaks my heart

#2293 Jedi

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 06:17 PM

Ouch. OUCH OUCH OUCH...

Chris Johnston with the Canadian Press tweeted the following (emphasis mine)...

Bill Daly says "there's nothing to report." The NHL and NHLPA met separately with mediators and were never in the same room today.


So now the sides feel that they're so far apart that they can't even ACTUALLY meet with each other in these meetings? If that's the mindset the NHL and NHLPA have, it's "game over, man" (rated R for language).

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#2294 BottleOfSmoke

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 06:51 PM

Posted Image

LGWsig_zpsa75c5d1e.jpg

 


#2295 Uniblab

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 06:51 PM

Helene St. James@HeleneStJames
Perhaps next the NHL & NHLPA can book meeting at UN Security Council - another place where nothing binding ever happens.

Ouch.
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#2296 frankgrimes

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 07:02 PM

Loool this is really turning into a gongshow,

Sent from my BlackBerry

Edited by frankgrimes, 12 December 2012 - 07:02 PM.

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#2297 wings_fanatic

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 07:03 PM

Helene St. James@HeleneStJames
Perhaps next the NHL & NHLPA can book meeting at UN Security Council - another place where nothing binding ever happens.

Ouch.



Too bad the NHL was not run like the UN Security Council because then we could have a Permanent 5 have access to a Veto vote- - anything that gets vetoed does not happen. The UN P5 consist of USA, Britain, France, China and Russia, all of which finance a large percentage of the UN and, because of that, they have a large say on what happens on matters. Why can't this be the same for the NHL. We could have the P5 consist of the Red Wings, the Maple Leafs, the Habs, the Rangers, the Blackhawks... for example, if Gary Bettman asks the owners to vote on a lockout and one of the permanent members veto it, then it can't happen. Since it is these teams that make a very significant amount of the NHL's money, and share their revenues with the poor teams, than this should happen and then we wouldn't have to deal with this lockout bulls*** every 7 years.

#2298 Buppy

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 07:32 PM

This has always been my stance all along. Both sides have sinned in these negotiations, and the resulting lost games are not due to Bettman alone. You can blame both sides pretty equally. What I find pretty outlandish is that those people sitting on their respective sides, either the owners or players, are unwilling to see the sins of their side but are totally open about seeing the faults of the side they are against. ...

You're not the Pope of labor negotiation. Calling something a "sin" doesn't make it one; it's just your opinion. Your continued attempts to characterize those with contrary opinions as sycophants and hypocrits is getting stale.

it's been the culture for the last 20 years or so for the pa and league to hate each other. new members on both sides it seems have been brought up to despise the other side. we need a reset and it starts with cleaning house in the leadership roles on both sides....

Leadership on the PA side has already been cleaned. Fehr has only been around for two years. He also played a part in resolving exactly this type of owner-player distrust/dislike in MLB.

...it means both sides hate each other and don't trust each other one iota and are constantly engaging in bad faith negotiating. we need 2 sides that concentrate more on getting a deal done than seeing who can negotiate in bad faith more. ...

That's rather vague. What could one side do that you would consider concentrating enough on getting a deal done?

Seems to me that the "blame both sides" mindset in based on the opinion that any offer from either side is good enough (or not good enough if you prefer), so that regardless of where the sides are at, they both need to continually move toward each other until they reach an agreement. By extention, that means any failure to reach an agreement can only be the result of both sides being "unwlling to work together".

If you have a more specific range for what constitutes a "fair" deal, it changes your perspective of what constitutes "working together" and "good faith negotiating".

#2299 haroldsnepsts

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 07:38 PM

Ever have a friend who's in a bad relationship? And every time you hang out with him all he does is complain about how awful things are, ask for advice that he never takes, and generally bring you down so you stop hanging out with him?

That's how the NHL has now become for me.



And as yet another reminder. No political discussion in this thread or on this site (no one really had yet but I wanted to head off any possibility from St. James' tweet) and no directing personal comments about the person making the post. Keep the discussion about this ridiculous lockout.

#2300 cusimano_brothers

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 07:57 PM

Nobody noted that yesterday was the twentieth anniversary of the announcement of Uncle Gary being named as leader? Interesting.

"Mess up tomorrow, don't mess up now".

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