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[Retired] Official Lockout Thread


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#2321 55fan

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 03:27 PM

Gary, Bill, Don: Get off the message boards and get back to work negotiating. We don't care if you're not accomplishing anything in the meeting rooms. At least the you only annoy us through the media.

#2322 Buppy

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 08:02 PM

Not really. They fired Paul Kelly because they felt he wasn't confrontational enough and they wanted somebody that could get under the owners skin. Fehr has no doubt accomplished that goal. I think some of the owners have developed a personal hate against fehr and I don't see that every going away so long as fehr is head of the pa. Both sides need a reset at the same time...

Or one might say Kelly was fired because players felt he was too concilliatory; more concerned with avoiding a lockout than representing the players' best interests. They wanted someone who would fight for them.

The players wouldn't be happy with doormat leadership, nor would the owners ever respect the PA if they could walk all over them. To end the labor strife, the two sides have to respect each other. Deservingly or not, I'd think Bettman has permantently lost any chance of gaining the respect of the PA. Three long lockouts is just too much. I don't know if there's any chance the owners will develop any respect for Fehr or the PA, but I think he deserves a shot. Likely no one thought the strife in MLB would have ended, yet Fehr was able to work with Selig of all people, who was responsible for a fair part of the hostility between those two sides.

examples of both sides not caring about getting a deal done and negotiating in bad faith:

...

That wasn't the question I asked.

If the PA had started negotiating in January, making proposals every week, not talking to the media at all, Fehr on time for every meeting, but their offer now was still the same...do you think the owners would accept it? If not, would you be still be satisfied that the PA cared about getting a deal done?

#2323 chances14

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 10:56 PM

That wasn't the question I asked.

If the PA had started negotiating in January, making proposals every week, not talking to the media at all, Fehr on time for every meeting, but their offer now was still the same...do you think the owners would accept it? If not, would you be still be satisfied that the PA cared about getting a deal done?


If the pa had done all of those things we wouldn't be in this situation right now in my opinion.

But hypothetically, if they did and their offer was still the same and we ended up in the same situation as we are right now, then I would be satisfied with the pa and I would put all the blame on the owners.

#2324 Big Nickel

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 12:06 AM

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#2325 haroldsnepsts

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 11:20 AM

Per Dreger:

Wild speculation ranging from potential deals to decertification.Both sides still have plenty of fight. As for decert, it would kill the yr.



I don't think the NHLPA should decertify, but I'm back to the point of just saying screw it, lose the season. Fire Bettman. Burn it to the ground and start over.

I'm gonna be too pissed off to watch hockey for a while anyway.

#2326 Nightfall

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 11:40 AM

Per Dreger:

I don't think the NHLPA should decertify, but I'm back to the point of just saying screw it, lose the season. Fire Bettman. Burn it to the ground and start over.

I'm gonna be too pissed off to watch hockey for a while anyway.

I don't see how torching the season and firing Bettman is going to solve anything at this stage. In order for there to be real traction on the negotiating front, you need to fire the leadership on both sides. Not just Bettman and Fehr, but their leadership teams as well.
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#2327 RippedOnNitro

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 11:41 AM

Per Dreger:




I don't think the NHLPA should decertify, but I'm back to the point of just saying screw it, lose the season. Fire Bettman. Burn it to the ground and start over.

I'm gonna be too pissed off to watch hockey for a while anyway.


Yep I say screw the owners and screw the players, just like they screwed the fans.

And meanwhile the Red Wings have finally a chance for a top 3 pick :)
First round series win: $0 () Second round series win: $0 () Third round series win: $0 () Fourth round series win: $0 () Goal difference: $0 (-3) Shutout difference: $0 (0) SHG difference: $0 (0) Extra points reg. season: $3 (102)

TOTAL COLLECTED: $0 TOTAL BONUS IF STANLEY CUP: $3

#2328 Johnz96

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 11:44 AM

Per Dreger:




I don't think the NHLPA should decertify, but I'm back to the point of just saying screw it, lose the season. Fire Bettman. Burn it to the ground and start over.

I'm gonna be too pissed off to watch hockey for a while anyway.

The removal of Bettman from the sport of hockey is far more imperative than ending the NHL lockout. Even not considering the lockouts, he is the worst thing to ever happen to the sport of hockey. When he finally unlocks the doors, it will be up to us. Boycott spending money on the NHL until they have no choice but to fire him.

#2329 RedWingsDad

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 11:56 AM

The removal of Bettman from the sport of hockey is far more imperative than ending the NHL lockout. Even not considering the lockouts, he is the worst thing to ever happen to the sport of hockey. When he finally unlocks the doors, it will be up to us. Boycott spending money on the NHL until they have no choice but to fire him.


I think I have a solution to the problem of Bettman's dictatorial powers... we should make him accountable to another larger group of people. He has too much power and needs to be held accountable. The group of people he is accountable to could be, oh I don't know... 30 people... kind of like one representative for each team in the league, what do you think?
.........
.........
.........

......... oh wait.

Edited by RedWingsDad, 14 December 2012 - 12:06 PM.

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#2330 kipwinger

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 12:28 PM

I think I have a solution to the problem of Bettman's dictatorial powers... we should make him accountable to another larger group of people. He has too much power and needs to be held accountable. The group of people he is accountable to could be, oh I don't know... 30 people... kind of like one representative for each team in the league, what do you think?
.........
.........
.........

......... oh wait.


Are you trying to imply that Gary Bettman already is accountable to other people and that he didn't unilaterally force a lockout on the players, owners, and fans because he's a vicious little weasel who hates hockey and hates all of us? That's a novel perspective.

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#2331 toby91_ca

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 12:52 PM

If the pa had done all of those things we wouldn't be in this situation right now in my opinion.

But hypothetically, if they did and their offer was still the same and we ended up in the same situation as we are right now, then I would be satisfied with the pa and I would put all the blame on the owners.

I disagree. If the PA had started making proposals in January like the ones recently issued, I think we'd still be where we are, except the players would be much worse off. If the PA offers deals like that so early, the league would just have pushed for more. There's no way a deal gets done until both sides are up against the last deadline (i..e deal or no season). I think they will be be happy to meet in the middle on all oustanding issues, but no way either side will agree to that until they are out of time to do anything else.

#2332 haroldsnepsts

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 12:56 PM

I think I have a solution to the problem of Bettman's dictatorial powers... we should make him accountable to another larger group of people. He has too much power and needs to be held accountable. The group of people he is accountable to could be, oh I don't know... 30 people... kind of like one representative for each team in the league, what do you think?
.........
.........
.........

......... oh wait.

Are you trying to imply that Gary Bettman already is accountable to other people and that he didn't unilaterally force a lockout on the players, owners, and fans because he's a vicious little weasel who hates hockey and hates all of us? That's a novel perspective.

Of course he has to answer to owners. So I guess he gets a free pass in spite of being paid over $8 million dollars to run the NHL?

Right, why should the head of the NHL be held responsible for the third lockout under his reign?


Some interesting reading:

“He’s in charge,” said Jonathon Gatehouse, whose book

“The Instigator: How Gary Bettman Remade the NHL and Changed the Game Forever,”

the first in-depth biography of Bettman, was recently published. “It has been a gradual process over 20 years and has accelerated since his victory in the last lockout.”



To make sure the disunity of 1994-95 did not happen again, Bettman engineered a change in the voting rules: if he was against a settlement, he could be overruled only by a vote of three-quarters of the owners. And he was given the power to fine any owner or team official as much as $1 million for divulging internal league matters.



Since that victory,(the 2005 lockout) Bettman’s authority has been unassailable.



Jacobs, the chairman of the Board of Governors, and Snider, who as chairman of Comcast helped secure the N.H.L.’s $200 million deal with NBC, are his strongest supporters.


“In the old days, basically the owners ran the league and almost ran it into the ground,” Snider said last December. “Now it’s Bettman’s league. He’s a great commissioner. Basically he’s the force behind everything we do.”


http://www.nytimes.c...l-enforcer.html


I don't see how torching the season and firing Bettman is going to solve anything at this stage. In order for there to be real traction on the negotiating front, you need to fire the leadership on both sides. Not just Bettman and Fehr, but their leadership teams as well.

Unfortunately a big part of the leadership team is the law firm representing the NHL in these negotiations, which also represents all 4 major sports and was a big player in both the NBA and NFL lockout. Not coincidentally, it's the law firm that Bettman and Stern used to work for.

I would love to get rid of Bettman, Fehr, and that law firm as well .

It's starting to feel like Bettman and Stern are the two old guys in Trading Places, and they have a bet for $1 to see who can get the best deal for the owners, no matter what it does to the sport.

#2333 Nightfall

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 01:12 PM

I disagree. If the PA had started making proposals in January like the ones recently issued, I think we'd still be where we are, except the players would be much worse off. If the PA offers deals like that so early, the league would just have pushed for more. There's no way a deal gets done until both sides are up against the last deadline (i..e deal or no season). I think they will be be happy to meet in the middle on all oustanding issues, but no way either side will agree to that until they are out of time to do anything else.

To say that there would or would not have been traction really is just assuming at this stage. The simple fact of the matter is that we don't know how negotiations would have went if they started in January like the league wanted to do. To say that good things or bad things would have happened if they did start is just an assumption. One thing is for certain though. There was an opportunity to negotiate in January that Fehr and the players association pissed away. The fans should be upset with the PA for this purely because it was pissing away an opportunity that had potential to make a deal happen and the league to start on time if it was successful. The act of pissing away an opportunity should not go unpunished or forgiven simply because it never happened or the assumption was that it would have never bore fruit. A wasted opportunity is just that, a wasted opportunity. I will not forgive the PA for dragging their feet during these negotiations, and neither should the fan base.
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#2334 RedWingsDad

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 01:13 PM

Of course he has to answer to owners. So I guess he gets a free pass in spite of being paid over $8 million dollars to run the NHL?

Right, why should the head of the NHL be held responsible for the third lockout under his reign?


I didn't say he get's a free pass or comment on his wages. Obviously he has some responsibility. My heavily sarcastic comment was aimed at the seemingly never ending Bettman rage posts (like the one I was responding to) that directly assert or very strongly imply that Bettman is the sole source of the problem, a unilateral force that, upon removal, would produce perpetual sunshine and happiness in NHL land.

He doesn't act unilaterally, and his removal would not change the owners wishes. (...or the wishes of the PA for that matter)

Edited by RedWingsDad, 14 December 2012 - 01:15 PM.

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#2335 vladdy16

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 01:15 PM


Aaron Ward@aaronward_nhl

NHLPA Executive Board voted last night,to give players a vote to AUTHORIZE Exec Board to chose to proceed on Disclaimer of Interest #TSN

Can't wait to read the "Phoenix: I still think it's a hockey market" chapter of Gary Bettman's autobiography. I'm guessing it's going to be chapter 11.

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#2336 Nightfall

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 01:16 PM

Unfortunately a big part of the leadership team is the law firm representing the NHL in these negotiations, which also represents all 4 major sports and was a big player in both the NBA and NFL lockout. Not coincidentally, it's the law firm that Bettman and Stern used to work for.

I would love to get rid of Bettman, Fehr, and that law firm as well .

It's starting to feel like Bettman and Stern are the two old guys in Trading Places, and they have a bet for $1 to see who can get the best deal for the owners, no matter what it does to the sport.

I think this is only the second time we have seen eye to eye on something in this thread. I agree 100% with your assessment.
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#2337 frankgrimes

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 02:43 PM

I hope the PA is really going the decertification or disclaimer of interest route so a certain guy will have seen his last lockout and go eff off another league. The players, fans and I am sure some owners are sick of him.

The NHL never intended to negotiate in good faith, like Crosby said there only negotiating has been our way or the highway. Players would be stupid to give up money and contract-rights, not gonna happen. I am sure Goodenow would have already signed a deal so I am glad Fehr is running the show now. While not without any blame he has done a masterful job so far.

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#2338 chances14

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 03:02 PM

Unfortunately a big part of the leadership team is the law firm representing the NHL in these negotiations, which also represents all 4 major sports and was a big player in both the NBA and NFL lockout. Not coincidentally, it's the law firm that Bettman and Stern used to work for.

I would love to get rid of Bettman, Fehr, and that law firm as well .

It's starting to feel like Bettman and Stern are the two old guys in Trading Places, and they have a bet for $1 to see who can get the best deal for the owners, no matter what it does to the sport.


agreed

I didn't say he get's a free pass or comment on his wages. Obviously he has some responsibility. My heavily sarcastic comment was aimed at the seemingly never ending Bettman rage posts (like the one I was responding to) that directly assert or very strongly imply that Bettman is the sole source of the problem, a unilateral force that, upon removal, would produce perpetual sunshine and happiness in NHL land.

He doesn't act unilaterally, and his removal would not change the owners wishes. (...or the wishes of the PA for that matter)

agreed.

i don't think i have seen one person in this thread say that bettman should get a free pass. i am just sick of seeing all these "it's 100% bettman's fault" posts

#2339 frankgrimes

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 03:40 PM

agreed


agreed.

i don't think i have seen one person in this thread say that bettman should get a free pass. i am just sick of seeing all these "it's 100% bettman's fault" posts


When players, fans and even owners are sick of the guy who is running the show it is time for a change. The NHL and NHLPA don't trust each other they aren't even meeting eye to eye anymore, so the best thing to do would be a restart and therefore bring in a commissioner, who at least understands the game and isn't focused on gambles in non hockeymarkets. Also I'd love to see some play it poor owners getting their asses handed to them once the cap is gone and owners who are willing to spend are icing great teams again.

kftx.jpg

 

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Welcome to hockeytown Jonas aka Lundquist 2 Gustavsson!

blank cheque for The Captain or Jim Star Nil please..

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#2340 kipwinger

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 04:13 PM

When players, fans and even owners are sick of the guy who is running the show it is time for a change. The NHL and NHLPA don't trust each other they aren't even meeting eye to eye anymore, so the best thing to do would be a restart and therefore bring in a commissioner, who at least understands the game and isn't focused on gambles in non hockeymarkets. Also I'd love to see some play it poor owners getting their asses handed to them once the cap is gone and owners who are willing to spend are icing great teams again.


If the owners were sick of him then he'd be fired.

Of course he has to answer to owners. So I guess he gets a free pass in spite of being paid over $8 million dollars to run the NHL?

Right, why should the head of the NHL be held responsible for the third lockout under his reign?


Some interesting reading:

[/size][/font][/color][/left]

http://www.nytimes.c...l-enforcer.html



Unfortunately a big part of the leadership team is the law firm representing the NHL in these negotiations, which also represents all 4 major sports and was a big player in both the NBA and NFL lockout. Not coincidentally, it's the law firm that Bettman and Stern used to work for.

I would love to get rid of Bettman, Fehr, and that law firm as well .

It's starting to feel like Bettman and Stern are the two old guys in Trading Places, and they have a bet for $1 to see who can get the best deal for the owners, no matter what it does to the sport.


If the owners didn't want the voting rules changed to give Bettman more power they wouldn't have voted for it.

And most importantly of all, if the owners didn't want a lockout they wouldn't have voted for it...unanimously. Who gives a damn how much he gets paid, everything that Gary Bettman did, does, or does not do was sanctioned or is currently being sanctioned by the owners. Everything.

Edited by kipwinger, 14 December 2012 - 04:15 PM.

GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 






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