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[Retired] Official Lockout Thread


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#2341 Nightfall

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 04:15 PM

When players, fans and even owners are sick of the guy who is running the show it is time for a change. The NHL and NHLPA don't trust each other they aren't even meeting eye to eye anymore, so the best thing to do would be a restart and therefore bring in a commissioner, who at least understands the game and isn't focused on gambles in non hockeymarkets. Also I'd love to see some play it poor owners getting their asses handed to them once the cap is gone and owners who are willing to spend are icing great teams again.

Restarting means firing the commissioner and the NHLPA heads. I would even like to see their deputies and counsel fired as well. You want to bring in a new method of thinking? Then you have to get rid of the existing bureaucracies.
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#2342 chances14

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 04:42 PM

Also I'd love to see some play it poor owners getting their asses handed to them once the cap is gone and owners who are willing to spend are icing great teams again.


this is another thing that i don't get. people are complaining that owners are spending more than they can afford, yet when owners don't spend money to improve their team, they get blasted by fans for putting the bottom line first.

a damned if you do, damned if you don't kind of situation with fans.

#2343 haroldsnepsts

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 04:54 PM

If the owners were sick of him then he'd be fired.

If the owners didn't want the voting rules changed to give Bettman more power they wouldn't have voted for it.

And most importantly of all, if the owners didn't want a lockout they wouldn't have voted for it...unanimously. Who gives a damn how much he gets paid, everything that Gary Bettman did, does, or does not do was sanctioned or is currently being sanctioned by the owners. Everything.

For starters, I'm not sure how many voters are needed to approve a rule change like that, but yes obviously they made their bed.

As has been mentioned in the thread, Bettman only needs the support of 8 owners to overrule any decision regarding the CBA. Publicly announcing a unanimous vote for the lockout is hardly the same as all owners having strong support for it. They're not dumb enough to show weakness by casting a meaningless vote in opposition of the lockout. It would burn bridges with other owners, with Bettman, and weaken the leverage they're trying to get by locking players out in the first place.

I mention his salary because in spite of his job title as commissioner and his $8 million salary, your comments made it sound like you think he doesn't have very much say or influence over what's going on. If the owners wanted a patsy, seems like they could get one a lot cheaper.

#2344 Nightfall

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 04:56 PM

this is another thing that i don't get. people are complaining that owners are spending more than they can afford, yet when owners don't spend money to improve their team, they get blasted by fans for putting the bottom line first.

a damned if you do, damned if you don't kind of situation with fans.

Case in point, look at what everyone here wanted to pay Suter to come to Detroit. I think he was vastly overpaid heading to the Wild. I would not want to hamstring my team for 10 years just to get one player. Still, you had fans here calling for Kenny's head, and they are still calling for it today for not spending a ton of money.

For starters, I'm not sure how many voters are needed to approve a rule change like that, but yes obviously they made their bed.

As has been mentioned in the thread, Bettman only needs the support of 8 owners to overrule any decision regarding the CBA. Publicly announcing a unanimous vote for the lockout is hardly the same as all owners having strong support for it. They're not dumb enough to show weakness by casting a meaningless vote in opposition of the lockout. It would burn bridges with other owners, with Bettman, and weaken the leverage they're trying to get by locking players out in the first place.

I mention his salary because in spite of his job title as commissioner and his $8 million salary, your comments made it sound like you think he doesn't have very much say or influence over what's going on. If the owners wanted a patsy, seems like they could get one a lot cheaper.

Also keep in mind that the ownership voted to give Bettman the ability to have 8 owners support him and to overrule any decision regarding the CBA. So it wasn't like Bettman just walked in and made the decision for them. The owners were fully complicit in that decision. I am sure you already know that though.
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#2345 chances14

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 05:07 PM

let the court fight begin

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NHL files class action complaint in Federal court and unfair labor practice charge witj NLRB.


Edited by chances14, 14 December 2012 - 05:07 PM.


#2346 haroldsnepsts

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 05:10 PM

Case in point, look at what everyone here wanted to pay Suter to come to Detroit. I think he was vastly overpaid heading to the Wild. I would not want to hamstring my team for 10 years just to get one player. Still, you had fans here calling for Kenny's head, and they are still calling for it today for not spending a ton of money.


Also keep in mind that the ownership voted to give Bettman the ability to have 8 owners support him and to overrule any decision regarding the CBA. So it wasn't like Bettman just walked in and made the decision for them. The owners were fully complicit in that decision. I am sure you already know that though.

Actually I don't already know that. You don't either.

i have no idea how exactly that vote went, how many votes it took, if it was all 30 owners, if it took a simple majority or if he needed two-thirds. The few things I've read about it just say how Bettman "engineered" a rule change so he wouldn't get overruled again like he was in 1995.

Honestly I'm just tired of blathering on about this whole thing. I'm filling the void left by hockey with obsessing over the stupid lockout. It's only making the lack of hockey worse.

f*** em all. Burn it to the ground.

#2347 haroldsnepsts

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 05:16 PM

let the court fight begin

Like is often the case, the only winners in this whole mess are the lawyers.

#2348 BottleOfSmoke

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 05:19 PM

@DarrenDreger: NHL responds to NHLPA news today by filing complaint with NLRB claiming PA has engaged in bad faith bargaining. Another fight begins...

Hello, kettle? Yeah, this is pot. You're black. WTF?

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#2349 vladdy16

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 06:08 PM

And the lawsuits start flying. Bumpy ride indeed.
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#2350 Dabura

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 06:31 PM

Judge Judy.

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#2351 irishock

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 06:32 PM

Just cancel the season. At least save some face.

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#2352 rrasco

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 06:37 PM

If this is true, the NHL filed their complaint today to place this deadline on the PA. Which means, if the drop-dead date is mid-January, the NHL is calling the PA's bluff and is planning to wait them out. Of course, if the DOI is filed.....BOOM.

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#CBA According to Unfair Labor Practice Charge filing, obtained by http://ESPNNewYork.com , NHLPA has until January 2 to disclaim interest


Edited by rrasco, 14 December 2012 - 06:37 PM.

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#2353 GMRwings1983

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 07:02 PM

So what exciting rule changes will come out of this particular lockout, to draw casual fans back to hockey?

Soccer sized nets?
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#2354 kipwinger

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 07:54 PM

For starters, I'm not sure how many voters are needed to approve a rule change like that, but yes obviously they made their bed.

As has been mentioned in the thread, Bettman only needs the support of 8 owners to overrule any decision regarding the CBA. Publicly announcing a unanimous vote for the lockout is hardly the same as all owners having strong support for it. They're not dumb enough to show weakness by casting a meaningless vote in opposition of the lockout. It would burn bridges with other owners, with Bettman, and weaken the leverage they're trying to get by locking players out in the first place.

I mention his salary because in spite of his job title as commissioner and his $8 million salary, your comments made it sound like you think he doesn't have very much say or influence over what's going on. If the owners wanted a patsy, seems like they could get one a lot cheaper.


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Edited by kipwinger, 14 December 2012 - 07:59 PM.

GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

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#2355 Johnz96

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 07:55 PM

So what exciting rule changes will come out of this particular lockout, to draw casual fans back to hockey?

Soccer sized nets?

Pre-Bettman sized goalie equipment would be nice.

Edited by Johnz96, 14 December 2012 - 07:55 PM.


#2356 kipwinger

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 07:57 PM

Actually I don't already know that. You don't either.

i have no idea how exactly that vote went, how many votes it took, if it was all 30 owners, if it took a simple majority or if he needed two-thirds. The few things I've read about it just say how Bettman "engineered" a rule change so he wouldn't get overruled again like he was in 1995.

Honestly I'm just tired of blathering on about this whole thing. I'm filling the void left by hockey with obsessing over the stupid lockout. It's only making the lack of hockey worse.

f*** em all. Burn it to the ground.


I had a lengthy response typed in my post above, but after reading this post of yours I decided out of kindness to not continue this conversation any longer. It's brutal to see what a lack of hockey has done to you. I replaced that post with a joke. A not very good joke.

Edited by kipwinger, 14 December 2012 - 08:00 PM.

GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#2357 Johnz96

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 08:01 PM

So what exciting rule changes will come out of this particular lockout, to draw casual fans back to hockey?

Soccer sized nets?

It's funny after years of feigning to try and purporting it an impossibility, when he finally got his Cap to even things out some, he was actually able to crack down on all the obstruction that was suffocating most of the excitement out of hockey for almost a decade.

#2358 Dabura

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 08:06 PM

http://espn.go.com/n...ove-break-union

According to the Unfair Labor Practice Charge filing, obtained by ESPNNewYork.com, the NHL alleges the NHLPA's threat to disclaim interest as an "obvious bargaining tactic given the ongoing negotiations and the lack of progress towards a resolution." The filing further characterizes the potential action as a "ploy," an "unlawful subversion" of the collective bargaining process and a "perversion" of the NLRB procedure.


:turn:

Edited by Dabura, 14 December 2012 - 08:07 PM.

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#2359 frankgrimes

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 08:06 PM

Hopefully the courts are ruling the right way, since we all know which side has done nothing but bad negotiating since this whole process started.

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#2360 Buppy

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 08:30 PM

If the pa had done all of those things we wouldn't be in this situation right now in my opinion.

But hypothetically, if they did and their offer was still the same and we ended up in the same situation as we are right now, then I would be satisfied with the pa and I would put all the blame on the owners.

At least you admit the theoretical possibility of one-sided blame. Though I don't believe you for a second.

To say that there would or would not have been traction really is just assuming at this stage. The simple fact of the matter is that we don't know how negotiations would have went if they started in January like the league wanted to do. To say that good things or bad things would have happened if they did start is just an assumption. One thing is for certain though. There was an opportunity to negotiate in January that Fehr and the players association pissed away. The fans should be upset with the PA for this purely because it was pissing away an opportunity that had potential to make a deal happen and the league to start on time if it was successful. The act of pissing away an opportunity should not go unpunished or forgiven simply because it never happened or the assumption was that it would have never bore fruit. A wasted opportunity is just that, a wasted opportunity. I will not forgive the PA for dragging their feet during these negotiations, and neither should the fan base.

Thing is, there's an infinite number of "opportunities" to do something different in any situation. Any one has the potential to change the outcome. Why pick out one? Of course it's "certain" that starting earlier may or may not have helped, those are the only options. To justify the criticism, you should be more certain that it actually would have helped.

Beyond that, why do you blame the PA 100% for waiting? Were the owners sitting in a conference room for six months, looking at their watches, calling Fehr every hour begging him to negotiate? No, they said they were ready to start, but when the PA said they wanted to wait, the league said it was fine. What if the league had actually said, "No, we think we should start right away"? What if they'd just made a proposal anyway? The league took three weeks to make their first proposal after they started meeting. Took two weeks to make their second after the PA made their first. Neither side has been in any hurry to meet or make proposals, but you only ever mention the PA side.

Or how about this? The PA said they were willing to play without a CBA while they negotiated. The league didn't have to lockout. You'll say the PA wouldn't have negotiated, or would have waited until the end of the year an threatened to strike, but you don't actually know that. Shouldn't that count as one of your "opportunities" to resolve the situation without a work stoppage? Yet you forgive the league for that.

The one thing that is actually certain is that there will only be a deal when the two sides agree on the terms. Doesn't matter how long, or with what methods, they negotiate. One side agrees to a proposal, negotiations are done. No agreement, they keep going.

Restarting means firing the commissioner and the NHLPA heads. I would even like to see their deputies and counsel fired as well. You want to bring in a new method of thinking? Then you have to get rid of the existing bureaucracies.

The PA already did that. Why blame the PA for the league not following suit? What if they had before now? Wouldn't that have been another "opportunity"?

Besides, when you've defended Bettman you've said basically that he's acting only at the behest of the owners. Which should mean that Fehr is acting likewise for the players. Wouldn't then the real solution be to replace all the owners and players?





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