2458 replies to this topic

[hillbillywingsfan]

Hopefully the courts are ruling the right way, since we all know which side has done nothing but bad negotiating since this whole process started.

Yeah we ALL know this............

[frankgrimes]

Yeah we ALL know this............

Well "all" implied the majority not some super pro owner people..........

[Nightfall]

Hopefully the courts are ruling the right way, since we all know both sides have done nothing but bad negotiating since this whole process started.

Fixed it for you

[Nightfall]

At least you admit the theoretical possibility of one-sided blame. Though I don't believe you for a second.


Thing is, there's an infinite number of "opportunities" to do something different in any situation. Any one has the potential to change the outcome. Why pick out one? Of course it's "certain" that starting earlier may or may not have helped, those are the only options. To justify the criticism, you should be more certain that it actually would have helped.

Beyond that, why do you blame the PA 100% for waiting? Were the owners sitting in a conference room for six months, looking at their watches, calling Fehr every hour begging him to negotiate? No, they said they were ready to start, but when the PA said they wanted to wait, the league said it was fine. What if the league had actually said, "No, we think we should start right away"? What if they'd just made a proposal anyway? The league took three weeks to make their first proposal after they started meeting. Took two weeks to make their second after the PA made their first. Neither side has been in any hurry to meet or make proposals, but you only ever mention the PA side.

Or how about this? The PA said they were willing to play without a CBA while they negotiated. The league didn't have to lockout. You'll say the PA wouldn't have negotiated, or would have waited until the end of the year an threatened to strike, but you don't actually know that. Shouldn't that count as one of your "opportunities" to resolve the situation without a work stoppage? Yet you forgive the league for that.

The one thing that is actually certain is that there will only be a deal when the two sides agree on the terms. Doesn't matter how long, or with what methods, they negotiate. One side agrees to a proposal, negotiations are done. No agreement, they keep going.

You do bring up some good points so let me address them.

First off, you are 100% correct that I have no idea if Fehr or the players would have negotiated in good faith if the NHL would have started the season on time. That is an assumption on my part as well that we don't know if the players would have come to the table in good faith if that happened. That is another "wasted opportunity" that was pissed away by the league thats for sure.

Secondly, I don't blame the PA for this debacle "100%". The fault lies with the ownership more than the players in my mind, about 60% to 40%. I don't blame one side entirely. So lets just put that to bed right there. I do blame them for pissing away the opportunity they had to negotiate though, and everyone should blame them for that. As for the first initial proposals, both sides waited 3 weeks each to deliver their first proposals. Being as that they didn't start until late June, that was a big mistake.

Lastly, I have been as harsh on the ownership as I have on the players throughout this entire thread when I have replied. You make statements like I blame the ownership 100%, which is entirely not true. The bias in this thread has always reeked of pro-players standpoint, and I am ok with that. That bias has also equated to anything that is spoken against the players is a lie and a farce. It is very hard for anyone here who is pro-player to even admit that their side has really sucked ass in these negotiations. Its so bad that anyone who says things against the players union is obviously "100%" against the union.

I spoke out against one point that I am furious with the players union, and that is pissing away an opportunity to meet early and start negotiating. Its a known fact that the league wanted to meet early and the union dragged its feet until June. Is that right if both sides are negotiating in good faith? The answer is no.

Now, since you probably are just dying to hear me say something anti-owners, here we go.

Is it bargaining in good faith if one side lowballs the other with a proposal? The answer is no on that as well. That is not a side I would want to bargain with.

Of course, my second question will be ignored by many people here and everyone will just focus on the first one because it is anti-players union. Someone else will attempt to misrepresent my stance and say I am 100% for the owners, just because I said something anti player.

Lets just stop misrepresenting what people are saying at this stage. It does nothing positive to the conversation.

The PA already did that. Why blame the PA for the league not following suit? What if they had before now? Wouldn't that have been another "opportunity"?

Besides, when you've defended Bettman you've said basically that he's acting only at the behest of the owners. Which should mean that Fehr is acting likewise for the players. Wouldn't then the real solution be to replace all the owners and players?

Replacing all the owners and players is never going to happen. We can replace the people that are leading these negotiations though, and that is what needs to happen. Yes, Bettman does what the owners want him to do. Same as Fehr. I believe that both people are poisonous to the negotiating process though. I believe their counsel is also poisonous to the process. A clean slate is the only way that things are going to get better. Leaving one or the other in charge is akin to this whole process repeating again down the road.

Oh, and I wasn't defending Bettman. Just like I wasn't defending Fehr for the players taking a hard line. I was merely saying that both sides leaders are doing what their people want them to do. They really shouldn't take the blame solely. You can blame the greedy and inflexible owners and players for this debacle. Their leaders should be second on the list, but since you can't fire the owners and players, you have to fire the leaders.

Edited by Nightfall, 14 December 2012 - 10:53 PM.

[chances14]

Here's a link to read the full class action complaint by the league

http://www.sportsnet.../nhlvsnhlpa.pdf

I find it hilarious that the league is using public comments by players as evidence that the players are doing this only for a negotiating tactic. The Ryan miller quotes are the most damning

Now I understand why the league has had such a draconian attitude about owners speaking out in public. All it can do is provide evidence for the other side down the road.

The players could have very well fallen on their own swords

Edited by chances14, 14 December 2012 - 11:58 PM.

[haroldsnepsts]

I had a lengthy response typed in my post above, but after reading this post of yours I decided out of kindness to not continue this conversation any longer. It's brutal to see what a lack of hockey has done to you. I replaced that post with a joke. A not very good joke.

Thanks for your concern.

It's just that I've been a hockey fan a long time, since the mid 80s. I used to go to nearly every home game during the Dead Things era. I watched Stevie Yzerman put up 155 points. Probert's epic battles with McSorley. Kocur drop guys with his right hand. I remember when #5 on the Wings was Darren Veitch. I watched an amazing Stanley Cup finals between the Rangers and Canucks in 1994, only to see hockey taken away the next season by some new guy named Bettman who was named commissioner. Before then I hadn't even thought about who ran the league. Thankfully he was outvoted by the owners and the season was saved.

I watched through the dead puck era, when players clutched, grabbed, waterskied off guys. But Bettman stood there smiling, denying there was even a problem, telling us fans what we think. That we love the game and we don't think there's anything wrong.

I waited when ten years later he locked the players out again and finally got his precious cap, promising economic certainty that would stabilize the league for years to come. I saw the careers of Yzerman, Lidstrom, and many other greats shortened for this "economic certainty." The league also made rule adjustments to crack down on the problem Bettman told me didn't exist.

Now just 7 years and a billion more dollars in revenue later, we're on the precipice of losing another season. It's his economic vision that has created the disparity between franchises. It is his and his former law firm's CBA strategy that set the tone for this debacle of a negotiation in what should have been the easiest of all CBA's to hammer out.

Yes there's plenty of blame to go around. Absolutely the owners share responsibility for letting it get this far off the rails, Fehr's passive aggressive tactics certainly don't help things, but no one deserves more blame than the man who has been commissioner of the NHL for the last 20 years.

It's fitting that he celebrates his 20th anniversary with the league during one of his lockouts. And don't even get me started on the shootout.

(this will hopefully be my last post regarding this lockout, at least of my perspective or opinion. I may chime in with twitter updates and whatnot).

[RippedOnNitro]

I don't understand...Fehr said that they were really close to a deal a week ago. So why doesn't he just put the owners last proposal to a player's vote first???
Atleast then you know if it is worth going to the dissolving the union road and essentially killing the season.

Of what I read a lot it seems that when the court thinks the 'disclaim of interest' is only used because of a negotiation tactic it will decide that a lockout is legal.

Anyone know how long it will take a court to give a verdict?

Edited by RippedOnNitro, 15 December 2012 - 04:19 AM.

[frankgrimes]

Wow the NHL is just nutts, which side has been walking out of the meetings, because didn't like the counter proposals nor read it? Yes, the NHL
Which side started this negotiations with an absolute screw you offer? The NHL
Which side has kept a guy responsible for 3 lockouts, franchise gambles and questionable TV deals? The BOG (NHL)
What was the players fault? Starting negotiations too late
Accepting a player/owners meeting while having the Bruins guy in the same room.

So 5 points, 3 are going easily to the NHL two to the players.

As long as there aren't massive changes in the BOG and a new commissioner, someone who can protect the integrity trust between both sides will be at an alltime low point. Keep in mind the players wanted to play and negotiate while playing, the courts are going to look at that, the league itself said no and started with an embarrassing offer!

Both sides already agreed on the money just not this stupid contract rights and rightfully so, 5 years hardly provides player safety or longtime planning.

Edited by frankgrimes, 15 December 2012 - 04:47 AM.

[cusimano_brothers]

Uncle Gary needs the judge that ruled in the Riley Sheahan case; a case of scotch should do the trick.

[Nightfall]

Wow the NHL is just nutts, which side has been walking out of the meetings, because didn't like the counter proposals nor read it? Yes, the NHL
Which side started this negotiations with an absolute screw you offer? The NHL
Which side has kept a guy responsible for 3 lockouts, franchise gambles and questionable TV deals? The BOG (NHL)
What was the players fault? Starting negotiations too late
Accepting a player/owners meeting while having the Bruins guy in the same room.

So 5 points, 3 are going easily to the NHL two to the players.

As long as there aren't massive changes in the BOG and a new commissioner, someone who can protect the integrity trust between both sides will be at an alltime low point. Keep in mind the players wanted to play and negotiate while playing, the courts are going to look at that, the league itself said no and started with an embarrassing offer!

Both sides already agreed on the money just not this stupid contract rights and rightfully so, 5 years hardly provides player safety or longtime planning.

So, 60% fault to the owners and 40% to the players then. Sounds like my same math.

[vladdy16]

An Edmonton blog comparing the NBA and NHL class action complaints.

[cusimano_brothers]

But the NHL Friday afternoon took the union’s move head on, filing a class action complaint in U.S. Federal Court in New York “seeking a declaration confirming the ongoing legality of the lockout.”

The league also filed an unfair labour practice charge with the National Labor Relations Board. The NHL claims that the union, by “threatening to disclaim interest,” has “engaged in an unlawful subversion of the collective bargaining process.”

Reality seems to be a concept that Uncle Gary is having a tough time grasping. He must be using "NBC money" for all the lawyering.

[vladdy16]

I can't imagine that most haven't heard of the grass roots campaign started in LA (!), but JIC fans are pledging to refrain from an equal number of games that they are locked out of beginning Dec. 21st once hockey starts up again. Just Drop It.

[Barrie]

This League seems to be run by a bunch of people with the same education as a bunch of 12 year olds. I really hope you all don't go running back when the League finally starts up again. Hockey fans need to be more like Baseball fans. All Baseball had to do was lose one World Series before the fans made a statement. MLB wouldn't even think about missing games again. Hockey fans keep taking crap from those who are incharge. The only reason why Bettman can continue to lock out the players is he knows that the fans will be back.

Hockey fans, take a stand, or else Bettman will continue to treat you like crap.

[chances14]

Hockey fans, take a stand, or else Both sides will continue to treat you like crap.

fixed it for you

[cusimano_brothers]

From TSN:

NHL players will begin voting Sunday on whether they'll grant their executive board the authority to dissolve the NHL Players' Association.
Two-thirds of the union's membership must vote in favour before the board can file a "disclaimer of interest," according to a source. Disbanding the NHLPA would give players the chance to challenge the legality of the lockout in court and file anti-trust lawsuits against the league.

[Rivalred]

I just want bettman gone... Could care less for other tangibles

[Nightfall]

I just want bettman gone... Could care less for other tangibles

Thats why we will have a lockout everytime the CBA expires. Don't want a lockout? Fire both sides leaders and their counsel and the law firms that are employed by them. Bring in fresh blood that knows how to work with people instead of against them.

[Dabura]

fixed it for you

The players treat us like crap?

[cusimano_brothers]

Fun Fact: The "B" in "CBA" stands for "Bargaining", not "Bettman".