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[Retired] Official Lockout Thread


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#401 haroldsnepsts

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 12:22 PM

Wow, they met a whole two hours? They must be exhausted.

I think what Daly means by compromise is "agree to our ridiculous demands."

Again, it looks like the union should have used removal of the salary cap as a starting point so they could "compromise" to where they're at now, which is a reasonable place from which to negotiate.

It's a waiting game to see who breaks first. Start canceling the regular season.

#402 Z Winged Dangler

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 12:50 PM

Here's a somewhat dry but pretty good explanation of how Hockey Related Revenue makes things more complicated than they seem. It's not as simple as figuring out how much total revenue was generated and giving the players 57% of it. The players are already getting a reduced share.

http://www.cbc.ca/sp...ed-revenue.html

That was a very interesting article to say the least. Luxury boxes should not count toward HRR as the renters get to attend every event in their suite. The pissing contest over HRR is killing the NHL and it's fanbase, so they better sort out their differences very quickly cause the media isn't helping the face of the game. They're more pressing the NHL and NHLPA to make quick decisions and jumping at every chance (like the TSN article today stating they talked for 2 hours and got nowhere) to add more fuel to the fire in the public eye.

I don't get how it's so hard to sit down and figure out what's hockey related revenue and what isn't and split the amounts fairly....? If Gary Bettman and Donald Fehr were so smart, we'd be way past that and the boys would be finishing the pre-season gearing up for an 82 game schedule. Too many greedy children in positions that are supposed to be filled with grown men.

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#403 haroldsnepsts

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 01:11 PM

That was a very interesting article to say the least. Luxury boxes should not count toward HRR as the renters get to attend every event in their suite. The pissing contest over HRR is killing the NHL and it's fanbase, so they better sort out their differences very quickly cause the media isn't helping the face of the game. They're more pressing the NHL and NHLPA to make quick decisions and jumping at every chance (like the TSN article today stating they talked for 2 hours and got nowhere) to add more fuel to the fire in the public eye.

I don't get how it's so hard to sit down and figure out what's hockey related revenue and what isn't and split the amounts fairly....? If Gary Bettman and Donald Fehr were so smart, we'd be way past that and the boys would be finishing the pre-season gearing up for an 82 game schedule. Too many greedy children in positions that are supposed to be filled with grown men.

The problem is that they're not necessarily interested in what's fair.

As commissioner of the NHL and steward of the league, I'd hope that Bettman would act more in that capacity. Taking into consideration the best long term interest of the NHL as well as the owners' wishes, but he seems to be more hard line than the owners.

Every CBA negotiation under his reign has resulted in a lockout, and as I mentioned earlier, in 1995 the lockout ended because the owners overruled Bettman and made a deal that salvaged the season. After that he got the rules change so he only needs the support of 8 owners to keep from being overruled again. With that kind of power there's a lot less chance of owners conceding anything.

#404 Nightfall

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 01:12 PM

Oh boy, I'm pretty sure agreeing to disagree is not the best approach on this particular issue.

Yup, lets start cancelling the regular season games.

Both sides meet for two hours and they got to the point where they "agree to disagree". I guess it is hard to split a $3.3 billion dollar pot. I would like to thank both sides for refusing to compromise in this situation. I would also like to thank both sides for making my decision to not purchase tickets to attend anymore NHL games an easy one. I am pretty pissed. The rampant greed of the NHL and NHLPA have killed the NHL brand as a whole. I hope they stay locked out for many years to come. I will watch KHL and AHL hockey for now. Yes, I will enjoy the games more than the greedy NHL fools that run or play in that league.

Fehr and Bettman can both jump off a very tall building.
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#405 Nightfall

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 01:20 PM

The problem is that they're not necessarily interested in what's fair.

As commissioner of the NHL and steward of the league, I'd hope that Bettman would act more in that capacity. Taking into consideration the best long term interest of the NHL as well as the owners' wishes, but he seems to be more hard line than the owners.

Every CBA negotiation under his reign has resulted in a lockout, and as I mentioned earlier, in 1995 the lockout ended because the owners overruled Bettman and made a deal that salvaged the season. After that he got the rules change so he only needs the support of 8 owners to keep from being overruled again. With that kind of power there's a lot less chance of owners conceding anything.

Of course, all the blame goes on Bettman and the league here. :sleepy:

While I don't put it past the hard line owners as being part of the problem, you have to hand it to Fehr as well who also refuses to come down from his proposal. When you have two hard line commissioners who are aiming to get as much as possible for their constituents and at any cost, then there is little room to maneuver. While I don't disagree that the NHL is part of the problem instead of part of the solution, the NHLPA leadership has been questionable at best. Fehr has been willing to sacrifice a world series to get what he wants, and its readily apparent he is willing to sit as long as possible to do it again for the NHLPA.

We need two sides that are willing to work with each other, not be at ends with each other, which is what we have right now. Hell, I can't think of a time when the NHL and the NHLPA have worked together in relative peace and unity. That starts with the leadership on both sides. Course, it will take another lost season before the two sides realize this and throw these tards out on the street where they belong.
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#406 haroldsnepsts

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 02:18 PM

Bob McKenzie's twitter today:

Bad news is NHL-NHLPA talks continuing to go to hell in a handbasket. And it's only going to get uglier with each passing day.


Dreger:

Bill Daly:"We don't like where we are, and we feel badly for our fans who are the innocent victims of this process."CBA talks going nowhere


Sure you do Bill, sure you do...


From ESPN:

NHL deputy commissioner Bill Daly didn't even rule out the possibility of involving a federal mediator at some point, although that does not appear imminent at this time.
"A mediator can only be helpful if both sides are willing to embrace it and compromise," he said. "We certainly haven't ruled out that possibility."
...
For instance, they are not currently discussing the division of shares of hockey-related revenue and appear to be at odds about what the current definition even encompasses.


http://espn.go.com/n...rly-encouraging

Bring in the mediator now please. And hope that he or she is a hockey fan.

It still sounds like both sides can't even agree on what constitutes HRR, or in other words, they can't even agree on the pot they're trying to split up. Meanwhile fans are left without one to piss in.

#407 Pskov Wings Fan

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 02:25 PM

KHL had made it to ESPN before NHL. This is just great.

http://bleacherrepor...from-the-owners

#408 haroldsnepsts

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 02:32 PM

Pretty good piece from Lebrun on the topic. Like most knowledgeable hockey fans, he's able to come up with a reasonable compromise that should be painfully obvious to the owners and union.

I don’t have an MBA or a law degree, and I know I’m likely over-simplifying things here, but how about this for a solution to this economic gridlock:

Using existing formula for hockey-related revenue, start the players off in Year 1 of the new CBA at 53 percent of the pie, followed by 52 percent in Year 2, 51 percent in Year 3, then 50 percent for however many remaining years each side agrees to on the term of the document.

The owners get their 50-50 split, but only by phasing into it so that players don’t get overwhelmingly hammered by escrow in the first two years of the deal. Hopefully from the players’ perspective, by the time they get down to 50 percent in Year 4, the HRR pot will have grown enough that, in actual dollars, it wouldn’t be that much of a hit on salaries.

Right now, neither side would embrace this solution. The players likely would see this as giving in. Meanwhile, blood-thirsty owners like Jeremy Jacobs want their pound of flesh right off the top from the players, so 53 percent (down from the current 57 percent) would not be even close to what his group would agree to in Year 1.

For once, wouldn’t it be refreshing to see some of those moderate owners who don’t see the world the same way as a hawk like Jacobs stand up and espouse compromise? Where is their voice in all this?

To me, both sides could live with a 53-52-51-50-50-50 split over six years.

http://espn.go.com/blog/nhl/post/_/id/19563/its-groundhog-day-in-cba-negotiations

He also calls out hardline owner Jeremy Jacobs. I hadn't really heard much about him, but what I found doesn't sound good, especially given Bettman only needing 8 owners on his side. Moderate owners have no voice.

If there is one owner who appears to have a disproportionate amount of sway within the ownership group -- and hence the bargaining process -- it's Boston Bruins owner Jeremy Jacobs, who is the head of the NHL's board of governors. He is seen as a hard-liner who would like to see the players' share of the revenue pie reduced significantly from the 50-50 that many believe is a target for much of the ownership side.

"I can't tell you how powerful he is," one source from the players' side told ESPN.com.
Jacobs, for all of his hawkishness, has little sense of irony, though, as he OK'd a massive, six-year, $34.5 million deal for young star Tyler Seguin a few days after signing Brad Marchand to a four-year deal worth $18 million. Did Jacobs have his fingers crossed behind his back when those deals came across his desk, or is he just assuming he and the rest of the owners will gouge back a good portion of that contract when all is said and done?


http://espn.go.com/n...amics-different

http://bleacherrepor...are-bad-for-nhl

#409 BottleOfSmoke

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 02:38 PM

I agree, bring in the mediator now. Both sides are beyond negotiating in good faith. They continue to throw around rhetoric about "compromise," but news flash: it takes BOTH sides being willing to "compromise" in order to "compromise." This is a joke. If I wanted to watch a **** swinging contest between three year olds I'd go work at a daycare.

Edited: Granted it would have to be a really poorly run and unsupervised daycare, but whatever.

Edited by BottleOfSmoke, 02 October 2012 - 02:44 PM.

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#410 sleepwalker

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 02:49 PM

I agree, bring in the mediator now. Both sides are beyond negotiating in good faith.


I disagree. The players have come to the table in nothing but good faith. That is the whole problem here, They should have met the hostile owners who came in bad faith with an insulting low opening offer, with an insulting high offer of their own.

Instead they chose to put forth a proposal that they thought was fair and was close to their bottom line. Since they are the only side who came to the table in good faith to begin with, they don't feel they should have to move too much off of their proposal.

#411 rrasco

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 04:08 PM

So, your argument was that you didn't believe it. So we provide proof that the league was ready to negotiate early, and this is your response. I really try to take what the NHL and NHLPA say at face value. I guess I don't understand how some people can take what one side says as the truth while taking what the other side says as false.


Indeed. The reason I believe that even more is just like they acted like they were 'willing' to negotiate on the 15th to avoid a lockout. It's nothing more than PR. Especially when I watched live footage of Bettman saying he isn't worried about the time frame and there is plenty of time for negotiations...after the season. He clearly wasn't ready then, what would have made him in January? He knew they were going to lockout. Hell, I knew LAST YEAR we were going to a lockout.

I'm not taking sides...but I'm also not going to sit here and affirm the league was willing to negotiate in January as a means to slight the PA saying they waited. That's bulls***. Nothing was proved.

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#412 Johnz96

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 04:28 PM

I disagree. The players have come to the table in nothing but good faith. That is the whole problem here, They should have met the hostile owners who came in bad faith with an insulting low opening offer, with an insulting high offer of their own.

Instead they chose to put forth a proposal that they thought was fair and was close to their bottom line. Since they are the only side who came to the table in good faith to begin with, they don't feel they should have to move too much off of their proposal.

Typical Bettman lawyer double talk. The players are too busy playing hockey in January to negotiate the CBA

#413 drwscc

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 04:55 PM

Typical Bettman lawyer double talk. The players are too busy playing hockey in January to negotiate the CBA


Yeah, Donald Fehr and his brother Steve put up 15 goals between them in January. How could they have time to sit down and talk to Daly and Bettman?
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#414 Nightfall

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 05:16 PM

Indeed. The reason I believe that even more is just like they acted like they were 'willing' to negotiate on the 15th to avoid a lockout. It's nothing more than PR. Especially when I watched live footage of Bettman saying he isn't worried about the time frame and there is plenty of time for negotiations...after the season. He clearly wasn't ready then, what would have made him in January? He knew they were going to lockout. Hell, I knew LAST YEAR we were going to a lockout.

I'm not taking sides...but I'm also not going to sit here and affirm the league was willing to negotiate in January as a means to slight the PA saying they waited. That's bulls***. Nothing was proved.

So, in short, you are willing to take what the NHLPA says at face value, but when the NHL says something you don't believe it. All through that, you are saying that you are not taking sides. Good to know.....
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#415 Nightfall

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 05:23 PM

I disagree. The players have come to the table in nothing but good faith. That is the whole problem here, They should have met the hostile owners who came in bad faith with an insulting low opening offer, with an insulting high offer of their own.

Instead they chose to put forth a proposal that they thought was fair and was close to their bottom line. Since they are the only side who came to the table in good faith to begin with, they don't feel they should have to move too much off of their proposal.

Sorry, but I disagree. The players and owners want two separate things. Yes, the owners came with that crappy lowball offer, but the players screwed around until June before coming to the table to negotiate. Two wrongs don't make a right in my book. There is no excuse for these two sides not making a deal other than pure greed. Neither side deserves your support. Hell, neither side deserves anyones support here. A lost season is all on both sides for screwing around.

I especially love the war of words that is going on now between these childish sides. Daly says that the players aren't getting it. Fehr says that this lockout is the owners fault. What a load of garbage.
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#416 haroldsnepsts

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 05:39 PM

I don't really understand the fixation on the union not meeting months ago, other than it's really the only thing to try and blame just them for so far.

The union not wanting to meet last season is bad on them and they should be blamed, but the owners locking the players out and not being willing to negotiate this season is ok and makes sense?

We're 9 days out from the what was supposed to be the start of the regular season and there's no movement on either side. Any day now they'll start to announce the cancellation of games. I don't know what people think would've happened had they started meeting in January. Bettman even said he wasn't worried about the timetable back then.

Right now they still can't even agree on what constitutes HRR. It's not about lack of time.

Yeah, Donald Fehr and his brother Steve put up 15 goals between them in January. How could they have time to sit down and talk to Daly and Bettman?

It's not just about meeting with Daly and Bettman. Fehr was a relatively new president of the union and I'm guessing wanted to meet with a lot of the players, get a feel for where they stand on issues and also inform them of how he saw things.

That's a little harder to do with hundreds of players while the season is going on than it is 30 owners.

In a perfect world, yes they would've started meeting in January and had a deal hashed out this summer. I honestly (and naively) thought this would go relatively painlessly given the massive increase in revenue since the last CBA.

But the two sides are so monumentally far apart right now that it's looking like the only way a deal will be made is to play chicken with this season and see who gives first.

#417 chances14

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 06:03 PM

this was from dreger's article

http://www.tsn.ca/bl...eger/?id=406607

While discussions have been going on since late last week, talks have not focused on the primary economic issues prompting this response from NHL deputy commissioner Bill Daly.

"I'm really not sure where we go from here," he said. "We have done everything we can think of to try to engage the PA and invite them into a negotiation.


and this was from his twitter account

PA says its willing to talk about key econ issues, but, not if salary reductions included. Says the NHL's view now is a political move..


daly claims they've done everything they can to start negoitations on economic issues, yet they know that the PA doesn't want to negotiate until they get rid of salary reductions in their proposal.

as for the players, why not start negotiations anyways. just because you discuss salary reductions doesn't mean that they you have to accept them in the final CBA. just get your asses back to the barganing table and start working something out.

but instead both sides are too busy stroking their egos to give a damn.

#418 rrasco

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 06:20 PM

So, in short, you are willing to take what the NHLPA says at face value, but when the NHL says something you don't believe it. All through that, you are saying that you are not taking sides. Good to know.....


No. I'm not advocating for either side in this debate, I am merely pointing out that despite your claims, the league was not willing to negotiate in January despite what they said. You keep bringing it up like it's a viable excuse for the owners locking out the players. I didn't claim anything about the PA or mention anything they said...I don't even have an argument, except that what you are claiming about the leagues willingness to negotiate is false.

I don't care who caves or what the CBA looks like or what constitutes HRR or what percentage of 3 billion dollars who gets to get for the next year, or two, or ten. Give me f****** hockey already.

Edited by rrasco, 02 October 2012 - 06:20 PM.

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#419 cusimano_brothers

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 07:11 PM

Bill Daly doesn't feel sorry for anyone. Don't drag "the fans" in as an excuse why you don't want to negotiate in ernest. Choke on your lockout.

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#420 Pskov Wings Fan

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 07:31 PM

The quote below suggests that it is not lack of negotiating time, which causes the impasse. Sides understand each other, they just do not agree. So more meetings would not achieve much until some change to the circumstances of either side occurs.

"I don't think that we have a lack of communication in this negotiation," said Daly. "They understand what our position is. To this point we certainly understand what their position is.
"We just wish it was different."







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