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[Retired] Official Lockout Thread


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#681 StevieY is the captain

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 01:14 AM

this quote from dan cleary disgusts me. nothing but bs.



everyone knows neither side gives a damn about the fans. stop trying to insult our intelligence.


I don't think it's fair to group every player into a box labeled "Group A" and say not one of them has feelings for us fans.

I'm sure many NHL players do feel bad for us fans. I can understand frustration and anger over the lockout setting in but lets not allow it to give us false impressions of these people. Yes, money is a key motivator in this situation, for both sides. But you cant take the people caught in the middle and throw them under the bus simply because they have a desk job or they skate for a team.

Know what I'm saying?

#682 roboginger

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 10:26 AM

I almost hope players stay in Europe, they should unless they wanna deal with a lockout every 7 years.

#683 amato

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 10:31 AM

I almost hope players stay in Europe, they should unless they wanna deal with a lockout every 7 years.


You shut your mouth!!

Haha no really though, I hope not.. Unless they all go to one league and its televised here. Then I guess it'd be bearable.... Then the NHL will bring up younger guys and be about as competitive as the AHL ha

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#684 roboginger

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 10:48 AM

I hope they don't don't get me wrong lol, but i would understand might even take a pay cut for consistent work without constant work stoppages.

#685 rrasco

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 11:01 AM

My stance is what it has always has been. Both sides have not been willing or able to move from what they have wanted. The owners want too much, the players won't give up very much.


I'm curious.

Without taking sides: why do you believe the players should give up anything at all? Why are the owners entitled to anymore than they already get? This was their dream CBA 7 years ago after all. From the beginning of this CBA negotiation, the owners never risked losing anything, only something to gain. There was never the risk of the owners percentage being lowered.

Edited by rrasco, 15 October 2012 - 11:01 AM.

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#686 Jedi

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 11:59 AM

Dreger's reporting that CBA talks will resume tomorrow in Toronto. No word yet on what the topics of discussion will be, but I'm betting it's not "Core Economic Issues".

My guess? Such inconsequential topics as whether the PA should force all players to wear solid white skate laces, or if Ovechkin's yellow laces will be allowable.

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#687 Nightfall

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 01:00 PM

I'm curious.

Without taking sides: why do you believe the players should give up anything at all? Why are the owners entitled to anymore than they already get? This was their dream CBA 7 years ago after all. From the beginning of this CBA negotiation, the owners never risked losing anything, only something to gain. There was never the risk of the owners percentage being lowered.

I believe that financially, things change so a new CBA should be negotiated every 5 years or so. Lets get that out of the way first.

I believe the players should have to give up a little for various reasons. The cost to operate a club has went up, rent, fuel charges, team personnel, and so on. I don't know what it takes to run an NHL team in terms of cash, but these costs alone are worth a little bit at least. As clearly pointed out in Forbes, many teams are not making a profit right now, which means the most profitable ones are carrying the entire league. Lastly, I look at other leagues and the split in each league. For example, the NFL and NBA the split is close to 50-50 with the league. I believe an even split is quite equitable.

Now, through all this do I believe the players should take the 43% that the owners were asking for in the original proposal? No. The players should not be held at fault for the foolish ownership decisions that have been made. The players are entitled to every dollar of every contract that signed. The players should not be held responsible for the NHL adding franchises into areas that cannot sustain them.

There is a fair and equitable deal to be made here. I keep going back to 52-48 in favor of the players.

I can see your point though in that the players should not have to relinquish any share of the revenues for the mistakes of the NHL or management of the teams. At the same time, there are other factors which can easily make the CBA sway 2-3% back from the players to the owners.
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#688 rrasco

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 01:35 PM

Thanks for your detailed response.

I believe that financially, things change so a new CBA should be negotiated every 5 years or so. Lets get that out of the way first.

I believe the players should have to give up a little for various reasons. The cost to operate a club has went up, rent, fuel charges, team personnel, and so on. I don't know what it takes to run an NHL team in terms of cash, but these costs alone are worth a little bit at least. As clearly pointed out in Forbes, many teams are not making a profit right now, which means the most profitable ones are carrying the entire league. Lastly, I look at other leagues and the split in each league. For example, the NFL and NBA the split is close to 50-50 with the league. I believe an even split is quite equitable.


I agree. Costs went up, but so did profits, so that's something to take into account as well.

I can see your point though in that the players should not have to relinquish any share of the revenues for the mistakes of the NHL or management of the teams. At the same time, there are other factors which can easily make the CBA sway 2-3% back from the players to the owners.


I guess the way I see it is: if my company's business was booming and they agree to pay me $100K in annual salary, but the next few years encompassed the company making bad business decisions like opening up new franchises in bad locations and thus they wanted to lower employee salaries to compensate for these financial losses and try to save them; I wouldn't be so willing. On the flip side, knowing that I was making more money working for this company than I could at any comparable one, and it's the most reputable one on top of that, I might be willing to take a little pay cut to keep my position and pay. Then again, I might get pissed off and quit and while I might not make as much somewhere else, my former employer still lost my talent; however valuable that may be.

Edited by rrasco, 15 October 2012 - 01:36 PM.

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#689 toby91_ca

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 01:51 PM

I believe that financially, things change so a new CBA should be negotiated every 5 years or so. Lets get that out of the way first.

I believe the players should have to give up a little for various reasons. The cost to operate a club has went up, rent, fuel charges, team personnel, and so on. I don't know what it takes to run an NHL team in terms of cash, but these costs alone are worth a little bit at least. As clearly pointed out in Forbes, many teams are not making a profit right now, which means the most profitable ones are carrying the entire league. Lastly, I look at other leagues and the split in each league. For example, the NFL and NBA the split is close to 50-50 with the league. I believe an even split is quite equitable.

Now, through all this do I believe the players should take the 43% that the owners were asking for in the original proposal? No. The players should not be held at fault for the foolish ownership decisions that have been made. The players are entitled to every dollar of every contract that signed. The players should not be held responsible for the NHL adding franchises into areas that cannot sustain them.

There is a fair and equitable deal to be made here. I keep going back to 52-48 in favor of the players.

I can see your point though in that the players should not have to relinquish any share of the revenues for the mistakes of the NHL or management of the teams. At the same time, there are other factors which can easily make the CBA sway 2-3% back from the players to the owners.

Are you seriously referencing increased fuel costs and rent as reasons why the players should take less? I'm pretty sure revenues have increased at a much greater rate and pure dollar amount than any costs the owner's need to pay (which would include player salaries). I'm sure the league as a whole made way more this year than they did back in 2005-06. The key issue here is that the revenue growth is being driven by some teams and not others. While costs of every team have gone up, somewhat consistently, the same can't be said for revenues. That issue, is a simple one, and one that points to the teams having to share more revenues, not take money from the players to prop up poorer franchises while making the super rich teams richer....it makes no sense.

All that being said, I have no idea what a reasonable sharing percentage is. No one can say 50/50 makes perfect sense unless they are in there and have all the facts, etc. Gary Bettman strongly argued against looking at the NBA and NFL, etc. back in 2005 because those leagues were very different, revenue sources are different, etc. Now, when it helps their argument, they point to the NBA and NFL deals.....very annoying.

The most annoying thing of all is the request of roll-backs. The players never should have agreed to it back in 2005, but because they did, the league is pushing for it again and they'll do the same next time around if they agree to it again. I think the most "FAIR" deal is to determine what the fair split is and get to a split the makes sense without immediate roll-backs.

The thing that really annoys me is that there were owners out there probably contemplating big signings this summer and the league was whispering in their ear that they will be able to negotiate 10-15% reductions in salaries. So owners go out and spend $100 million on a guy thinking that in the long run it will really only cost $85 million.

#690 chances14

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 01:51 PM

I don't think it's fair to group every player into a box labeled "Group A" and say not one of them has feelings for us fans.

I'm sure many NHL players do feel bad for us fans. I can understand frustration and anger over the lockout setting in but lets not allow it to give us false impressions of these people. Yes, money is a key motivator in this situation, for both sides. But you cant take the people caught in the middle and throw them under the bus simply because they have a desk job or they skate for a team.

Know what I'm saying?


sure i do. but you are forgetting that cleary is one of the guys directly involved with these negotiations. He's the one going on record saying that he would be willing to lose a season or more to get what he and the players believes is fair.

Edited by chances14, 15 October 2012 - 01:55 PM.


#691 toby91_ca

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 01:55 PM

sure i do. but you are forgetting that cleary is one of the guys directly involved with these negotiations. He's the one going on record saying that he would be willing to lose a season or more to get what he believes is fair.

That doesn't mean he doesn't care about the fans. I'm not saying he does either, I just think it's a completely different issue. If I was a player, I wouldn't simply lie down and give the owners whatever they asked for simply because I cared about the fans, that doesn't make sense. I'd want what is fair.

#692 Buppy

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 02:12 PM

I believe that financially, things change so a new CBA should be negotiated every 5 years or so. Lets get that out of the way first.

I believe the players should have to give up a little for various reasons. The cost to operate a club has went up, rent, fuel charges, team personnel, and so on. I don't know what it takes to run an NHL team in terms of cash, but these costs alone are worth a little bit at least. As clearly pointed out in Forbes, many teams are not making a profit right now, which means the most profitable ones are carrying the entire league. Lastly, I look at other leagues and the split in each league. For example, the NFL and NBA the split is close to 50-50 with the league. I believe an even split is quite equitable.
...

Costs (not including player compensation) have been going down relative to revenue. At least over the first 6 years of the previous CBA.

Eight years ago, with the league as a whole losing money, the owners decided that 54% growing to 57% was good enough. Now, with the league as a whole making money and other costs having dropped relative to revenue, 54% and likely dropping from there with revenue growth isn't. Yeah, that makes sense.

#693 chances14

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 02:34 PM

I agree. Costs went up, but so did profits, so that's something to take into account as well.


Remeber though that revenue and profits are 2 different things and is something a lot of people are not understanding here. people see $3.3 billion and automatically assume that is all profit but it's not.

another issue is that for the big market teams like toronto, detroit,etc.. profits have gone up but for the smaller market teams profits have not gone up, but you can bet that the costs of running a team have gone up across the board.

but i do agree with the players in that the owners should have to honor all exisiting contracts with no rollbacks. it's the owners who gave them the contracts in the first place.

#694 rrasco

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 03:01 PM

Remeber though that revenue and profits are 2 different things and is something a lot of people are not understanding here. people see $3.3 billion and automatically assume that is all profit but it's not.


I know, but it is an important thing to point out. The League as a whole is supposedly profitable though.

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#695 Shaman

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 03:12 PM

For us who aren't following the CBA discussions religiously anyone want to give us the cliff-notes?
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#696 rrasco

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 03:29 PM

For us who aren't following the CBA discussions religiously anyone want to give us the cliff-notes?


League revenues are up to $3.3B. Players used to get 57% of the HRR split and owners 43%. League claims current system is unstable and says immediate roll backs to player salaries is the answer. League's initial offer included HRR split of 57/43. Players say it isn't their fault and they shouldn't have to bear the cost. Players are willing to give back a little but not what the league is asking for. Neither side is budging at this point and driving us hockey nuts effin crazy.

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#697 chances14

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 04:02 PM

per dreger

@DarrenDreger: Keep hearing about a radically different PA proposal. NHL also pondering its next move. It's all spin until a proposal is made.


also

The key negotiators in the NHL's collective bargaining talks will look to start bridging the gap on economic issues when they resume negotiations.
A meeting between the league and union is scheduled for Tuesday morning where the sides will discuss "ideas for moving the process forward on the main issues," according to deputy commissioner Bill Daly.
Beyond that, there is no set agenda.
The session will feature the Big Four involved in talks -- commissioner Gary Bettman and Daly for the NHL, and executive director Donald Fehr and special counsel Steve Fehr for the NHL Players' Association.


http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=407434

Edited by chances14, 15 October 2012 - 04:02 PM.


#698 haroldsnepsts

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 04:52 PM

I'm not terribly familiar with the site Deadspin but McKenzie retweeted this link, so that's an endorsement. Either way this story seems credible.

The NHL hired a Republican strategist and is holding rushed focus groups of fans to test pro-ownership messages and spin the PR back in their favor.

http://deadspin.com/...dium=socialflow

And this is a pre-emptive warning. This thread is about the lockout, not politics.

#699 rrasco

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 04:56 PM

Makes me sick. Why don't they hire af****** economist who can tell them their business plan won't work.

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#700 Jenny

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 05:08 PM

The items in focus group exercise C (last picture) were lifted verbatim from a Puck Daddy article posted last week. And one of the guys in the fighting picture in Image Exercise 2 (3rd picture) is Derek Boogard. Complete trash.

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