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[Retired] Official Lockout Thread


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#941 Euro_Twins

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Posted 19 October 2012 - 11:59 AM

This article is worth a read, I just stumbled upon it and it talks about Bettman possibly knowing he was going to turn down any offer the PA tabled before it even happened, and his whole 50/50 offer was just a pr move and really held no water.

http://www.rantsport...from-the-start/

#942 hillbillywingsfan

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Posted 19 October 2012 - 12:05 PM

Yeah

This article is worth a read, I just stumbled upon it and it talks about Bettman possibly knowing he was going to turn down any offer the PA tabled before it even happened, and his whole 50/50 offer was just a pr move and really held no water.

http://www.rantsport...from-the-start/

Yeah all that sounds a few people on here got together and wrote an article about what they thought....no proof of anything. Both the NHLPA and the NHL are wanting the moon and the stars and no one is willing to give anywhere. I lean more towards the owners simply for the fact that no other business in the world has it's employees making more money than the owners. That wouldn't be very smart of the owners.

Edited by hillbillywingsfan, 19 October 2012 - 12:05 PM.

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#943 Nightfall

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Posted 19 October 2012 - 12:06 PM

This article is worth a read, I just stumbled upon it and it talks about Bettman possibly knowing he was going to turn down any offer the PA tabled before it even happened, and his whole 50/50 offer was just a pr move and really held no water.

http://www.rantsport...from-the-start/

None of these proposals that either side are throwing out there are going to be accepted. It won't be until both sides sit in a room longer than 60 minutes to NEGOTIATE a deal. There are going to be things in any proposal that the other side is not going to see eye to eye with. Which is why you have a negotiation and concessions by both sides working towards the goal of making a deal that works for both sides. I haven't seen that desire by either side. It seems that playing the PR card and complaining is more important than making a deal.
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#944 haroldsnepsts

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Posted 19 October 2012 - 12:21 PM

Yeah
Yeah all that sounds a few people on here got together and wrote an article about what they thought....no proof of anything. Both the NHLPA and the NHL are wanting the moon and the stars and no one is willing to give anywhere. I lean more towards the owners simply for the fact that no other business in the world has it's employees making more money than the owners. That wouldn't be very smart of the owners.

The players getting 57% of HRR in no way means they make more money than the owners.

#945 Euro_Twins

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Posted 19 October 2012 - 12:25 PM

I never said this was written in stone, I said it was an interesting article talking about that possibly being the plan

#946 Jedi

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Posted 19 October 2012 - 01:02 PM

Ryan Lambert with Puck Daddy had a scathing review of the League's (read: Bettman's) negotiating tactics. I'd recommend giving it a read.

I've left out a good chunk of the middle, because you really should go and give the whole thing a read. But I've included the parts that I agree with most.

"(We're) going to get a deal done" - Gary Bettman to some dude, October 18, 2012, approximately 2:15 p.m. Eastern Standard Time.

"We were done in an hour today because there was really nothing there." - Gary Bettman to reporters, October 18, 2012, 4 p.m. Eastern Standard Time.

Funny, that.

Why, it's almost like the NHL had no intention whatsoever of accepting whatever offer the NHL Players' Association put forward yesterday, and that everything it has done to this point has come as part of bad-faith negotiations disguised as platitudes about how much the fans matter and how important it is for them to get a deal done.

...

But again, it was a PR move, and so the NHLPA fought back in the only way it knew how, offering three proposals with all different terms, but two of them with revenue shares based on growth, rather than just flatly dropping to 50-50 as the NHL's does. The other, which they had to know the league would never accept under any circumstance, sure doesn't make Bettman look good. Basically, it said, "We'll go to 50-50 today if you give us the money you owe us on the current deals up front."

Oof. That last part really has to sting Bettman. The players were ready to capitulate to your 50-50 demands right away, as long as the owners you represent in all this gave them the money contractually owed them.

Instead you pitched a fit to the media and considered it to be in a different language than what you were asking.

This is, in the NHL's mind, not acceptable. Reason enough for Bettman to storm out of a Toronto office building after talking about how deeply disappointing all this non-capitulation is — and to be sure, that's the only thing he's upset about — then get in a hired car and take the first flight back to New York City. Second time in a row that's happened. All the PR spin in the world can't change the fact that it's the league, not the PA, that refuses to negotiate.

"There was nothing to talk about," Gary? Sounds to me like that's only because the things to talk about weren't exactly what you wanted to hear. Next time try holding your breath until your face turns blue. That'll show everyone that you and aren't being inflexible at all.

Don Fehr, the players, and the fans (one of whom you directly lied to less than two hours before your press conference) will know you mean business.


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#947 sleepwalker

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Posted 19 October 2012 - 01:14 PM

Proper scheduling/realignment (such as the plan proposed last year and rejected by the NHLPA as a bargaining chip)


The players didn't reject it as a "bargaining chip" as you say. In case you forgot, the NHL proposed realignment was completely uneven and gave Eastern Conference teams an almost 10% advantage in making the playoffs versus the Western Conference teams. THAT is why the players rejected it, like anyone else would have.

#948 cusimano_brothers

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Posted 19 October 2012 - 01:39 PM


The National Hockey League announced today the cancellation of the 2012-13 regular-season schedule through November 1. A total of 135 regular-season games were scheduled for Oct. 11 through Nov. 1.

The cancellation was necessary because of the absence of a Collective Bargaining Agreement between the NHL Players' Association and the NHL.


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#949 Pskov Wings Fan

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Posted 19 October 2012 - 01:44 PM

Yeah
Yeah all that sounds a few people on here got together and wrote an article about what they thought....no proof of anything. Both the NHLPA and the NHL are wanting the moon and the stars and no one is willing to give anywhere. I lean more towards the owners simply for the fact that no other business in the world has it's employees making more money than the owners. That wouldn't be very smart of the owners.


I think you are wrong. Employee compensation is the main expense of great many businesses especially in the services area. Owner gets whatever is left after all expenses are covered.

#950 RedWingsDad

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Posted 19 October 2012 - 02:30 PM

The players didn't reject it as a "bargaining chip" as you say. In case you forgot, the NHL proposed realignment was completely uneven and gave Eastern Conference teams an almost 10% advantage in making the playoffs versus the Western Conference teams. THAT is why the players rejected it, like anyone else would have.


Well that just sounds stupid... the concept of eastern and western conference wouldn't have existed under the new proposal. Also, what did they use to determine that 10% advantage, lol? Don't mean to derail the lockout conversation... but .. yeah... lol

Edited by RedWingsDad, 19 October 2012 - 02:30 PM.

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#951 haroldsnepsts

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Posted 19 October 2012 - 02:33 PM

With the latest cancellation of games I think that brings the grand total to 1,833 games lost under Bettman.

#952 Jedi

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Posted 19 October 2012 - 02:40 PM

Well that just sounds stupid... the concept of eastern and western conference wouldn't have existed under the new proposal. Also, what did they use to determine that 10% advantage, lol? Don't mean to derail the lockout conversation... but .. yeah... lol

The fact that the two divisions in the "Eastern" conference had 7 teams in them, while the two divisions in the "Western" conference had 8 teams each. SInce the top 4 teams from each division would make the playoffs, that means each of the teams in the "Western" divisions would have a harder time making the playoffs than the teams in the "Eastern" divisions, since they have one more team to compete with in their division.

I don't know if the actual percentage is 10% (I'll leave the actual amount to someone who's better at math than I am), but it's clear that it's fundamentally harder for teams in the "Western" divisions to make the postseason than teams in the "Eastern" divisions.

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#953 sleepwalker

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Posted 19 October 2012 - 03:12 PM

Well that just sounds stupid... the concept of eastern and western conference wouldn't have existed under the new proposal. Also, what did they use to determine that 10% advantage, lol? Don't mean to derail the lockout conversation... but .. yeah... lol


The two divisions in the east would have 7 teams each, the two divisions on the west would have 8 teams each. The top 4 teams from each make it to the playoffs. Its not rocket science to see that the teams in the east would have had a very clear and pretty significant advantage in making the playoffs.




Edit: Didn't see Jedis post there, looks like he beat me to it.

Edited by sleepwalker, 19 October 2012 - 03:13 PM.


#954 RedWingsDad

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Posted 19 October 2012 - 03:14 PM

The fact that the two divisions in the "Eastern" conference had 7 teams in them, while the two divisions in the "Western" conference had 8 teams each. SInce the top 4 teams from each division would make the playoffs, that means each of the teams in the "Western" divisions would have a harder time making the playoffs than the teams in the "Eastern" divisions, since they have one more team to compete with in their division.

I don't know if the actual percentage is 10% (I'll leave the actual amount to someone who's better at math than I am), but it's clear that it's fundamentally harder for teams in the "Western" divisions to make the postseason than teams in the "Eastern" divisions.

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Thanks for breaking it down. I probably should have clarified the precise reasons for my "lol". I knew that the teams wouldn't be even, but it is quite silly to me that the whole (awesome) idea was scrapped by the NHLPA over just that... in favour of the current system. Adding an expansion team could have solved that problem. Clearly the owners weren't worried about the "10%" disparity. Going off on a tangent I know.. I had just never heard what the exact reason for scrapping the re-alignment was.
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#955 fixxxer

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Posted 19 October 2012 - 03:28 PM

Thanks for breaking it down. I probably should have clarified the precise reasons for my "lol". I knew that the teams wouldn't be even, but it is quite silly to me that the whole (awesome) idea was scrapped by the NHLPA over just that... in favour of the current system. Adding an expansion team could have solved that problem. Clearly the owners weren't worried about the "10%" disparity. Going off on a tangent I know.. I had just never heard what the exact reason for scrapping the re-alignment was.


I may be mistaken but I think the reason was because they had the power to scrap it and the fact that the owners just came up with it w/o consulting the PA. Probalby aslo a PR move to say that they wasn't just going to lay down and take whatever the owners wanted.

#956 Nightfall

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Posted 19 October 2012 - 03:41 PM

Craig Custance has a good article on the negotiations so far.


It was a conversation before the craziness. A Monday afternoon chat when all we knew was that this week was a crucial one for negotiations between the NHL and the NHLPA.
Red Wings forward Dan Cleary, one of the group of players who were in Toronto on Thursday to present the union's three offers, was asked a question that ignited an interesting answer.
Once a deal is ultimately struck, will both sides be able to come together amicably to help rebuild the game as a partnership?
"I think so," Cleary said on Monday. "When it comes time to have a partnership, which we all want, which we have to have -- if we don't have it, we'll have a lockout in six years. Again. We will, for sure."
And that's where we are right now. At a point in negotiations that impact not only how long the coming season will be but whether or not the two sides are setting up a growth-crushing cycle of a lockout every six or seven years.
The wounds inflicted now and the negotiation tactics used in an attempt to get a deal done aren't forgotten when it comes time to talk about a new deal down the road. Especially when so many of the key players are the same.
One former player who was very active in the previous negotiations between the league and the players that set up the last lockout shook his head in frustration at the news that came out of Toronto on Thursday.
"Now it sounds like it's going to be a long one, eh?" he said. "It's the same as last time, the same owners, [Jeremy] Jacobs and those guys."
The players remember these things. They'll remember that they took two days to consider the NHL's offer made earlier this week only to have their three counterproposals shot down in minutes.
Brendan Morrison is another player who has been through multiple negotiations and he explained why it was so important that the league make the next offer this week. It had nothing to do with current talks and everything to do with previous ones.
"Players are reluctant to really alter our current proposal simply because in '04-05, we felt we made a huge sacrifice moving forward -- gave up 24 percent [in rollbacks]," Morrison said earlier this week. "Our feeling at the time was, OK, if they do accept this, the deal is going to get done. Instead, they took that offer, put it right in their pocket and said, 'OK, thanks, what else are you going to do?'"
Scars from a previous negotiation that impact the current one.
It's been said often during these negotiations, but the next step is critical to these talks and potentially the long-term health of the game.
It's expected that another block of games will be canceled soon, but we've already seen a willingness to reschedule. That's not the end of the world.
The key in the coming days is that neither side digs in for a home run in these negotiations. Both sides have to feel like they're getting something.
There have been times during negotiations where Donald Fehr's motivations have been questioned, which is natural when an outsider steps into a tight-knit sport and immediately holds so much power. Was his ultimate goal to wipe out the salary cap and set up a system like baseball's? Was this an opportunity to secure his legacy as one of the all-time best labor negotiators? Or is he simply just trying to preserve as much money as possible for a group of athletes who are being asked for major concessions during a period of strong growth in their sport.
While the league quickly shot down the three offers made by the players Thursday, there has to be some reassurance in those offers to the NHL that Fehr is serious about a deal. Deputy commissioner Bill Daly made it clear that he didn't agree with the math, but at the very least there looks to be a willingness among the players to get close to 50/50. There's a deal to be made.
But at the same time, the owners have to show more give. There's still a perception out there that the NHL's offer this week came with major concessions from the owners. They were only major concessions when compared with their previous offers. Compared with the last CBA, the players were being asked for concessions across the board.
They're being asked for a paycut. They're being asked to wait longer for free agency. They're being asked to limit contract length.
Most players are actually very realistic on where they stand. They know they're going to take a hit financially in this next deal. That's just the reality when it comes to leverage. But there has to be at least something in it for them.
"We're willing to make major, major concessions over the term of the deal, but we would rather do it through growing the game rather than give them money up front," said one player. "And we're not just going to give you money for no reason; it has to be used properly."
The two sides aren't incredibly far off on the financial split. As Elliotte Friedman pointed out today, the two-tiered system where signed players keep their money and unsigned players take the future hit might be a workable solution.
It may be too late to save the entire 82-game season at this point, but it's not too late to find a deal that prevents a future cycle of lockouts. The long-term health of the game has to be the biggest priority.


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#957 haroldsnepsts

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Posted 19 October 2012 - 05:32 PM

Thanks for breaking it down. I probably should have clarified the precise reasons for my "lol". I knew that the teams wouldn't be even, but it is quite silly to me that the whole (awesome) idea was scrapped by the NHLPA over just that... in favour of the current system. Adding an expansion team could have solved that problem. Clearly the owners weren't worried about the "10%" disparity. Going off on a tangent I know.. I had just never heard what the exact reason for scrapping the re-alignment was.


They didn't reject it because they didn't like it. They rejected it because they felt they didn't have enough information to properly evaluate it and the league wasn't interested in providing it to them.

"Players' questions about travel and concerns about the playoff format have not been sufficiently addressed. As such, we are not able to provide our consent to the proposal at this time," union head Donald Fehr said in a statement.
"We continue to be ready and willing to have further discussions should the league be willing to do so."
Fehr added the league had set a Friday deadline for the union to approve the plan.


Shortly after the plan was approved, commissioner Gary Bettman said the NHLPA had expressed concerns but that the league didn't need the union to sign off on the changes.
Fehr rejected Bettman's claim and said the proposed plan would have fallen under the players' terms and conditions of employment in the collective bargaining agreement.
"We were prepared for the realignment from the NHL, but we weren't given every bit of information regarding it. How can you make an educated decision without all the proper information?" said Florida Panthers player representative Mike Weaver.
"We asked for the reasoning and that reasoning was not produced. They were not open to discussions about it."



http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=384427

Bettman basically implemented this plan without involving the union and dared them to kill it. It was the first F-You by the league to Fehr and the union, and a pre-cursor to how the CBA negotiations would go. (getting back on topic)

It's part of my problem with Bettman. Heading into a CBA negotiation instead of being diplomatic and involving the union he ignored them and literally said we don't need your approval. Great way to set the tone for coming negotiations.

#958 Johnz96

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Posted 19 October 2012 - 05:58 PM

That's gotta be a sports record

#959 Jenny

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Posted 19 October 2012 - 07:40 PM

They didn't reject it because they didn't like it. They rejected it because they felt they didn't have enough information to properly evaluate it and the league wasn't interested in providing it to them.


Yeah, one of the big sticking points was that the players wanted a sample schedule to see what their travel schedules would really be like, and the NHL flatly refused to provide it. It seems impossible that the league wouldn't have made some sample schedules in the course of determining the realignment.

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#960 cusimano_brothers

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Posted 20 October 2012 - 06:41 AM

Ryan Lambert with Puck Daddy had a scathing review of the League's (read: Bettman's) negotiating tactics. I'd recommend giving it a read.

I've left out a good chunk of the middle, because you really should go and give the whole thing a read. But I've included the parts that I agree with most.


Your recommendation should not be ignored. This is one of the best assessments of the situation to date; both scathing and absolutely truthful.

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