2458 replies to this topic

[drwscc]

This crap is exactly like politics these days. MY team is absolutely correct, and my opponents are all scumbags who are threatening to ruin the game/country/world. It's like everyone has lost the ability to be objective. NEITHER side has been negotiating in good faith, no matter how you spin it. BOTH sides are greedy and are working to get as much as they can. That doesn't change no matter who the commissioner is. They are fighting a PR war that, in the end, doesn't matter.

If the players caved today, and signed the last offer from the league, would you all be upset and not watch the games because the owners lost the PR war, but got what they wanted? If the league caved, would you be upset? It doesn't matter as long as they come back.

[VM1138]

I really don't want an 82 game season. Then they wouldn't suffer. They would be emboldened and know they could pull this crap every time the CBA ends and have it all work out. I want hockey back as much as everyone else, but they need to pay. And by "they" I mean the players and the owners. Best way to do that is to lose games and money and not be able to make them up. So I hope there's no deal for a while yet. Start in December or something.

[haroldsnepsts]

Dreger spreading some measured optimism:

Both sides believe there is a deal to be made. Some on the union's side predict a resolution sometime in November, while the NHL remains firm that Oct. 25 is its breaking point in maintaining an 82-game regular season.
...
There's strong belief that if common ground can be found on the systemic issues such as revenue sharing, free agency, salary arbitration, entry-level restrictions and contract length, the 'make whole' concept the NHL put together earlier this week can be mutually molded to close the deal.
...

Both owners and players are growing weary of the chest pounding and day by day the pressure on both sides to get a deal done is building.

http://www.tsn.ca/blogs/darren_dreger/?id=407723

I really don't want an 82 game season. Then they wouldn't suffer. They would be emboldened and know they could pull this crap every time the CBA ends and have it all work out. I want hockey back as much as everyone else, but they need to pay. And by "they" I mean the players and the owners. Best way to do that is to lose games and money and not be able to make them up. So I hope there's no deal for a while yet. Start in December or something.

I know what you're saying and would like both sides to feel the sting of this crap too. But last time they lost part of a season was in 95, which was followed by losing an entire year the next CBA negotiations.

[Johnz96]

Yeah
Yeah all that sounds a few people on here got together and wrote an article about what they thought....no proof of anything. Both the NHLPA and the NHL are wanting the moon and the stars and no one is willing to give anywhere. I lean more towards the owners simply for the fact that no other business in the world has it's employees making more money than the owners. That wouldn't be very smart of the owners.

The players are not only employees but also the product. i don't think many business owners are left with more than 40% of the revenues after paying their employees and all the costs involved in developing and producing their product

[Johnz96]

With the latest cancellation of games I think that brings the grand total to 1,833 games lost under Bettman.

THAT'S gotta be a sports record

[thegerkin]

THAT'S gotta be a sports record

If it is record, it's a sad, sad statistic.

[haroldsnepsts]

THAT'S gotta be a sports record

It is. Of the 4 major sports, the NHL leads by a longshot.

Granted the NFL has a lot fewer games per season, but it's still a ton compared to baseball and basketball.

[chances14]

This crap is exactly like politics these days. MY team is absolutely correct, and my opponents are all scumbags who are threatening to ruin the game/country/world. It's like everyone has lost the ability to be objective. NEITHER side has been negotiating in good faith, no matter how you spin it. BOTH sides are greedy and are working to get as much as they can. That doesn't change no matter who the commissioner is. They are fighting a PR war that, in the end, doesn't matter.

If the players caved today, and signed the last offer from the league, would you all be upset and not watch the games because the owners lost the PR war, but got what they wanted? If the league caved, would you be upset? It doesn't matter as long as they come back.

The best pr either side could have is to do get a deal done.

Dreger spreading some measured optimism:

I wonder who on the union side is saying a deal will be done in November?



Here's a nice article putting it all into perspective

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/nhl--nhl-and-nhlpa-wasting-time-with-scare-tactics-and-pr-stunts-instead-of-settling-cba.html

Edited by chances14, 20 October 2012 - 07:46 PM.

[haroldsnepsts]

The best pr either side could have is to do get a deal done.


I wonder who on the union side is saying a deal will be done in November?

I don't know. I highly doubt it was Fehr. Maybe an optimistic player?

Here's a nice article putting it all into perspective

http://sports.yahoo....ttling-cba.html

That is a good article.

It pretty well sums up why I blame the owners more than the union. (as a pre-emptive measure and to be clear, I also blame the union, just the owners side more).

They locked out the players for an entire season in 2004-05, and they got a salary cap and a 24-percent salary rollback. Now, despite seven years of record revenues, they're locking them out again and asking for more, more, more. They want them to go from 57 percent of HRR to 50, right now, when that represents $231 million a year, if revenues are flat. They want to tighten contracting rules, when loosening them was their concession last time. Their opening offer was too harsh, and now they're being only less harsh, and they're still being stubborn.

[RedWingsDad]

They didn't reject it because they didn't like it. They rejected it because they felt they didn't have enough information to properly evaluate it and the league wasn't interested in providing it to them.

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http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=384427

Bettman basically implemented this plan without involving the union and dared them to kill it. It was the first F-You by the league to Fehr and the union, and a pre-cursor to how the CBA negotiations would go. (getting back on topic)

It's part of my problem with Bettman. Heading into a CBA negotiation instead of being diplomatic and involving the union he ignored them and literally said we don't need your approval. Great way to set the tone for coming negotiations.

It's too bad the players union stopped the re-alignment, I believe it was sorely needed. I wish the league could make business decisions without having to get prior approval from employees who in vast majority aren't experienced in running a business.

[Nev]

It is. Of the 4 major sports, the NHL leads by a longshot.

Granted the NFL has a lot fewer games per season, but it's still a ton compared to baseball and basketball.

How many players have suffered all 3 lockouts? Selanne springs to mind, but he can't be the only one. I wonder is someone will fail to make it into the HOF because of the points total they lost under the lockouts.

[Nightfall]

After reading all three proposals by the players and the latest one by the league, one thing is certain.....

None of the proposals are close to 50/50 right out of the gate as was touted by either side.

http://espn.go.com/b...tter-to-players

Even in Fehr's latest letter to the players where he outlines the proposals, the final proposal in which he said the split goes down to 50/50 right away, in reality it does not. Its similar speak like what we heard in the NHL proposal where they touted the 50/50 split but it really wasn't.

Right now, both sides are just playing the PR card. I also don't believe that both sides are negotiating in good faith. Especially when the league and the players can't stand listening to the other sides proposals for longer than 15 minutes and meeting for more than 1-2 hours at a time. Its readily apparent to me that these are two sides that don't trust each other. Now you can say this is the fault of the respective sides, the leaders that they chose, or the culture of the players vrs owners. I don't know which it is, but I can say that both sides do not trust each other and there is some dislike between the sides.

Firing Bettman and Fehr wouldn't solve the trust issue right away, but it is a start. In the past, these leaders were chosen to get the most for their side and not consider the other side. The leaders of both sides have to be canned in order to bring in fresh blood that is all about working with each other, not against. This should spark a culture change between both sides and assist with future negotiations.

As for the issue we have today, both sides have got to pressure their leaders to get into a room and work on a deal. Right now, it seems that both sides are happy just sitting on their asses and letting the season slip away. That should make any Bettman or Fehr fan unhappy.

[haroldsnepsts]

It's too bad the players union stopped the re-alignment, I believe it was sorely needed. I wish the league could make business decisions without having to get prior approval from employees who in vast majority aren't experienced in running a business.

That's exactly the result Bettman wanted. It to look like the union killed a good idea for no good reason.

Hockey is entertainment and NHL players are ultimately elite talent. For those who think hockey players are just employees, I suggest you watch any other hockey league. Hockey is hockey, so there shouldn't be any difference, right?

Bettman is lucky that he's the commissioner of hockey and not some other sport because hockey probably has the smallest egos and fewest primadonnas. Can you imagine if NBA players were treated like this?

It was a stupid move on his part and achieved nothing other than setting a hostile tone before the CBA negotiations even began. If Bettman had any diplomacy skills he could've got the realignment approved and started a better relationship with players and Fehr headed into the CBA.

It wasn't that the players were against it. It's that it was sprung on them and they had little information to go on and the league wouldn't bother to provide it. Employees or not these are the guys who's lives and careers would be most effected by realignment. From their chances at winning the Cup down to how much they'd be on the road away from their family.

To not include them was terrible talent management by Bettman. It's like his short-man syndrome prevents him from making any move other than wielding whatever power he has.

How many players have suffered all 3 lockouts? Selanne springs to mind, but he can't be the only one. I wonder is someone will fail to make it into the HOF because of the points total they lost under the lockouts.

I read somewhere that Jagr was the only one to have played through all three lockouts. But you're right, Selanne has too.

[Buppy]

...

I read somewhere that Jagr was the only one to have played through all three lockouts. But you're right, Selanne has too.

Ray Whitney, Jason Arnott, and Chris Pronger (if you consider him as still playing) too. Probably a few more.

[Nightfall]

I read somewhere that Jagr was the only one to have played through all three lockouts. But you're right, Selanne has too.

Martin Brodeur has as well.

Edited by Nightfall, 21 October 2012 - 12:18 PM.

[haroldsnepsts]

Ray Whitney, Jason Arnott, and Chris Pronger (if you consider him as still playing) too. Probably a few more.

Martin Brodeur has as well.

Wherever I read that, that journalist sure didn't do his homework saying it was only Jagr.

[Nightfall]

Wherever I read that, that journalist sure didn't do his homework saying it was only Jagr.

ESPN did a story on Brodeur actually and the lockout.

http://espn.go.com/blog/nhl/post/_/id/19376/brodeur

Well worth reading.

[cusimano_brothers]

From Sportsnet:

The NHL's latest proposal didn't go over well with Washington Capitals superstar Alex Ovechkin, who has once again threatened to stay in the KHL if player salaries are significantly slashed in a new collective bargaining agreement.
Following Dynamo Moscow's 4-1 win on Saturday, Ovechkin told SovSport's Dmitry Ponomarenko, later translated by Peter Hassett, that he will explore ways to get out of his current NHL deal if there are major rollbacks in the new CBA.
"If my contract will be cut down greatly, it would be possible to annul it through the court," Ovechkin said.

"If we speak in Russian, the NHL provided a beautiful dream to the media and fans, but in reality it's a lie," he said. "It's showboating. The league is trying to show that they are kind of working, trying to save the season, but they offer nothing new. It's all the same, just in different words.

After all, this is his first rodeo/lockout.
In the KHL, does he get the bill for the shattered glass?

[Salviaman]

In other news I just moved to Northville. While I was finishing shopping at Target today I saw Niklas Kronwall walking in. It was cool to see a hockey player during the lockout.

[toby91_ca]

Ray Whitney, Jason Arnott, and Chris Pronger (if you consider him as still playing) too. Probably a few more.

Lidstrom just retired, so not him, but people like Arnott and O'Donnell have no contracts I believe, so they might retire too. Others would incude Jagr and Brodeur off the top of my head for sure...perhaps others, but can't think of anyone. Roloson is old enough for sure, but he didn't play in the NHL until he was 28 I believe.

It is comments like this from Daly that he has been making almost everytime someone talks to him that really annoy me.

Asked on Sunday
whether there was a chance for the sides to get something in place by Thursday's deadline, Daly responded by saying "that's more of a question for the union than it is for me."

So, in other words "whether there will be hockey played is totally up to the players, all they need to do is accept our offer. Whether they play or not has nothing to do with the NHL."