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uk_redwing

[Retired] Official Lockout Thread

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I have never been part of a seriously big negotiation like this, but its hard for me to fathom why there has to be pressure in order to make progress. You are right though, its the nature of the beast I suppose. I just don't like the pontificating for the press while they weren't talking. Now, by them being silent for the press, they are getting down to business. Its a shame they couldn't have done this before damage was done.

If there is a deadline by which you need to get something done....most people will withhold any and all potential concessions at least until such deadline as they wait to see if the other side bends. I don't see how it would work any different than that. The lockout is really a negotiation approach as well. There really doesn't have to be a lockout, it should be a last reasort, but with Bettman, he has shown time and time again that it is his first resort, that's how he negotiates (unless you simply give him what he wants up front). That said, if the owner's didn't lock out the players, they really wouldn't have much leverage in negotiations, so it's really hard to argue against it too much.

It looks like they may be planning on having discussions tomorrow as well, so I wouldn't be surprised if today's meeting results in the same thing as the last couple days (long meeting followed by no comments...commitment to meet the next day). I'm fine with that as it shows some progress must be occuring, but I'm getting impatient....is a deal getting done in the next several days or not.....need to know.

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Darren Dreger@DarrenDreger

If NHL doesn't honour existing contracts and guarantee players $1.883 share there will be no deal anytime soon. Biggest day of negotiation.

Bob McKenzie@TSNBobMcKenzie

Try to refrain from hyperbole but sense today is BIG on NHL labor front. Suspect we find out if this is going north or south.

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If there is a deadline by which you need to get something done....most people will withhold any and all potential concessions at least until such deadline as they wait to see if the other side bends. I don't see how it would work any different than that. The lockout is really a negotiation approach as well. There really doesn't have to be a lockout, it should be a last reasort, but with Bettman, he has shown time and time again that it is his first resort, that's how he negotiates (unless you simply give him what he wants up front). That said, if the owner's didn't lock out the players, they really wouldn't have much leverage in negotiations, so it's really hard to argue against it too much.

It looks like they may be planning on having discussions tomorrow as well, so I wouldn't be surprised if today's meeting results in the same thing as the last couple days (long meeting followed by no comments...commitment to meet the next day). I'm fine with that as it shows some progress must be occuring, but I'm getting impatient....is a deal getting done in the next several days or not.....need to know.

If the players were going to not concede anything, then the lockout becomes the only option. Heck, it wasn't like Bettman hit the lockout button in late June. No traction was made so he locked them out. So if you understand that both sides hold all their cards until there is real pressure, then you should also understand why we are where we are right now. The players would not have negotiated and played under the existing deal for as long as possible so playing wouldn't have been an option either.

I do get what you are saying though, but as you said, you can't demonize bettman for locking the players out just based on what you know from negotiations and how both sides hold everything and concede nothing until there is real pressure.

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Meetings done for the day, but they're meeting again tomorrow.

Good sign, for sure. 4 straight days of meetings. Hopefully we're that much closer to a deal.

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Darren Dreger's tweeting this morning, providing a healthy dose of caution over the whole process...

Keep hearing about the owners targeting U.S Thanksgiving for start-up. I don't get that sense. If negotiations sour, owners will dig in.
Same resolve remains among players.They believe they've given enough (50-50).Critics of PA proposal (Wed) say its too similar to past offers
I understand negotiations...just don't see how the lockout ends anytime soon given the position of both sides.

And once more unto the breach... Today's meetings are underway.

LeBrun...

NHLPA says meeting with league just began and that there would likely be a couple of meetings today with breaks....

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A memo sent to the players last night by Fehr has made it's way to TSN, and it's available to read online. Sounds like the league is still asking for an immediate jump to 50/50, and has not let up on their contract restrictions (28/8 UFA, 5% year-to-year variation, 5 year max contract, etc).

Worth a read. In short, it highlights how even after 3 straight days there is still much work to be done.

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A memo sent to the players last night by Fehr has made it's way to TSN, and it's available to read online. Sounds like the league is still asking for an immediate jump to 50/50, and has not let up on their contract restrictions (28/8 UFA, 5% year-to-year variation, 5 year max contract, etc).

Worth a read. In short, it highlights how even after 3 straight days there is still much work to be done.

That's depressing.

It's great that they're finally actually meeting for longer sessions and for the first time are not lying when they say they don't negotiate publicly. But the situation sounds very much the same. An immediate 50/50 AND those contract restrictions? It doesn't sound like we're anywhere close to a deal.

It's so stupid. A 3 year step down to 50/50 seems pretty fair to me. It would make it less painful for teams to be under the cap with their existing contracts, and minimize the rollback on players salary. Then modify contract restrictions somewhat, specifically the term length to something like 6 or 7 years. 5% is too restrictive for variation, but some restriction (20%?) does make sense to prevent more cap circumvention. Leave the other ones alone, give or take tweaks.

I'm not even going to speculate on what's a fair "make-whole" provision because it's so convoluted. But the owners should definitely share the burden of paying out existing contracts.

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That's depressing.

It's great that they're finally actually meeting for longer sessions and for the first time are not lying when they say they don't negotiate publicly. But the situation sounds very much the same. An immediate 50/50 AND those contract restrictions? It doesn't sound like we're anywhere close to a deal.

Agreed. The main positive to take from this whole thing, however, is the fact that they're still negotiating. Since both sides seem all to quick to shoot down a proposal (in a matter of minutes, at times), the fact that they're still discussing ideas and working together is a big positive to take away.

It may be the only positive, if both sides are still so far apart...

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i don't like that the memo was leaked. what happened to staying away from all the pr stuff?

That's much easier to accomplish on the NHL's side than the PA's. The League only has to control the 30 owners, plus a few staff who might be "in the know". Which is even easier with the threat of a $250,000 fine for speaking out of place.

The fact that the NHLPA is made up of around 700 players and then their own internal staff, a leak such as this becomes much more likely. It would be all but impossible to tell where the leak came from, if it were sent anonymously.

LeBrun is reporting that the first meeting (of several today) has wrapped up. Talks to resume at 2pmET.

First session is over. NHL and NHLPA will meet again at 2 pm ET

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I highly doubt Fehr would put anything inflammatory or confidential in a memo to players that could easily make it into the public's hands. I didn't read anything that memo that was different than their public stance on the matter, or even what Fehr might have said directly to Bettman or Daly. The NHLPA has made it clear that they are not happy with the limitations on future player contracts, and that an immediate rollback to 50/50 sharing (and drop of the salary cap) is not going to work.

I think the continued talks ARE encouraging. But Fehr is not going to really play ball until the owners make some type of concession on the existing contracts and the phase-in of the new distribution of HRR. We all hate the lockout, but there's this false causation I keep hearing from the fans, as if they're stuck in the 2004 logic and believe that you can fix teams like Phoenix, Dallas, etc. simply by throwing more of the money at all the owners. That didn't work in the '05 CBA, and it won't work now. The problem is in how league revenues are shared AMONGST the owners, and the fact that as soon as the new CBA is passed, the "have" GM's will figure out ways they can spend more than other teams to get an edge. Bettman isn't "learning" from this - Phoenix and the whole Western expansion is an albatross for this league, and he refuses to let the market correct it. You can also bet that he'll try to make up the money lost on this lockout with expansion fees (two new teams up to 32). People who think that the "greedy players" are the reason bad teams can't meet the cap floor without losing money are missing the whole point.

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That's much easier to accomplish on the NHL's side than the PA's. The League only has to control the 30 owners, plus a few staff who might be "in the know". Which is even easier with the threat of a $250,000 fine for speaking out of place.

The fact that the NHLPA is made up of around 700 players and then their own internal staff, a leak such as this becomes much more likely. It would be all but impossible to tell where the leak came from, if it were sent anonymously.

LeBrun is reporting that the first meeting (of several today) has wrapped up. Talks to resume at 2pmET.

That's what I wondered. It could very easily be an intentional PR leak. But it could also be a former player like Aaron Ward talking to one of his buddies.

And Bettman can actually fine teams up to a million dollars. He just hit the Wings with $250k for Devallano's comments.

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Michael Russo@Russostrib

Sources: #NHL perplexed #NHLPA did not inform players they are willing to go 50/50 and "Make Whole" every cent + interest by Year 3

if this is true, and fehr is holding back information, this could get ugly really quick. could also just be nhl propaganda to try to weaken the union.

and this was a response by one of the players to that tweet

Krys Barch@krysbarch

@Russostrib can u please explain further?

talk about being uninformed lol

Edited by chances14

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here's russo's blog regarding the tweet

http://www.startribu.../178216921.html

I'm told one of the NHLPA's demands that the league is not willing to do is pay 100% of the salaries this season no matter how many games are played

sure hope that's not true or else we can kiss the season goodbye. no way the owners agree to that.

Edited by chances14

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I have a really bad feeling now. All I have been hearing about is Fehr withholding information from Union, but I don't think that's true....not the problem. Information was left out of memo due to knowing it woudl be leaked, didn't want full details in there....that's all fine, but my issue is that Bettman is now trying to put a wedge between Fehr and the players. To me, this means talks aren't going well and this certainly isn't going to make them go any better.

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I have a really bad feeling now. All I have been hearing about is Fehr withholding information from Union, but I don't think that's true....not the problem. Information was left out of memo due to knowing it woudl be leaked, didn't want full details in there....that's all fine, but my issue is that Bettman is now trying to put a wedge between Fehr and the players. To me, this means talks aren't going well and this certainly isn't going to make them go any better.

You don't believe that Fehr is withholding information, but you do believe that Bettman is now trying to put a wedge between Fehr and the players? I believe its a bit of both going on. If Fehr was communicating well, the players would be on the same page. Right now, some players are either out of the loop or there is confusion. I will say that Fehr's group is much bigger, but the players shouldn't be tweeting that they want clarification.

At the same time though, both Bettman and Fehr are bargaining with their sides in mind. I don't think that either side is really communicating with their respective sides in the detail that they need to. Still, its the majority that need to be addressed.

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lebrun on today's meetings

Sources on both sides confirmed to ESPN.com that the league’s Make Whole offer -- an attempt to honor players’ existing contracts -- amounts to $211 million of guaranteed money ($149 million in Year 1 and $62 million in Year 2, both deferred in payment by one year and payable with interest). The league’s belief is that by Year 3 of the deal, revenues will have likely grown enough that at 50 percent of HRR the players shouldn’t face much if any salary erosion in escrow. At which one NHLPA source countered, what if the revenues don’t grow that much? Then what? The union says in that case players aren’t made whole on their contracts

Listen, the league’ $211-million Make Whole offer is not anything to sniff at, it’s a tangible move on the league’s part. But it’s still nowhere close to where the NHLPA would be willing to sign off on. Try about $600 million or so. That might do it.

so wait. every pa proposal has been based on projected revenue growth, but when nhl makes a growth proposal, it's seen as nothing by the pa? where was this concern by the pa when they were presenting their own proposals based on revenue growth?

Edited by chances14

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I have a really bad feeling now. All I have been hearing about is Fehr withholding information from Union, but I don't think that's true....not the problem. Information was left out of memo due to knowing it woudl be leaked, didn't want full details in there....that's all fine, but my issue is that Bettman is now trying to put a wedge between Fehr and the players. To me, this means talks aren't going well and this certainly isn't going to make them go any better.

Your feeling sounds correct.

Per Aaron Ward's twitter:

According to multiple player sources,"the notion that players don't know what's in CBA proposal is a complete fabrication". Today's meeting was described as 'heated'. One observation,"they couldn't have tried harder to push us away".Sensing huge frustration with the league on share of 'Make Whole',and stood firm on player contracting issues..

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You don't believe that Fehr is withholding information, but you do believe that Bettman is now trying to put a wedge between Fehr and the players? I believe its a bit of both going on. If Fehr was communicating well, the players would be on the same page. Right now, some players are either out of the loop or there is confusion. I will say that Fehr's group is much bigger, but the players shouldn't be tweeting that they want clarification.

At the same time though, both Bettman and Fehr are bargaining with their sides in mind. I don't think that either side is really communicating with their respective sides in the detail that they need to. Still, its the majority that need to be addressed.

What confusion are you talking about? From all accounts that I can see...players are on the same page. Are you referring to the Krys Barch tweet? If so, not sure what that shows....I see it as him asking "what are you talking about?"

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I realize that there is a lot more that must be negotiated, but if the League isn't going to budge on either "make whole" or the "honouring of signed contracts" (or both), these negotiations are doomed.

I can't help but think that if Uncle Gary hadn't shouted "LOCKOUT", there would be hockey right now and negotiations would be at the very same

position.

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