Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

[Retired] Official Lockout Thread


  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
2458 replies to this topic

#1521 cusimano_brothers

cusimano_brothers

    Legend

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,615 posts
  • Location:Niagara Falls, ON

Posted 16 November 2012 - 08:15 AM

A "timeout" during a lockout?
Welcome to Bettmanland.

"Mess up tomorrow, don't mess up now".

- Harry James Benson, CBE.


#1522 Jedi

Jedi

    Christmastime is buzzing in my skull...

  • HoF Booster Mod
  • 9,827 posts
  • Location:Dallas

Posted 16 November 2012 - 08:18 AM

A "timeout" during a lockout?
Welcome to Bettmanland.

"The Crappiest Place on Earth"™

"And the best, I must confess, I have saved for the last, for the ruler of this Christmas land,

is a fearsome king with a deep mighty voice, least, that's what I've come to understand.

And I've also heard it told, that he's something to behold, like a lobster, huge and red!

When he sets out to slay with his rain gear on, carting bulging sacks with his big great arms, that is so I've heard it said.

And on a dark cold night, under full moon light, he flies into a fog like a vulture in the sky!

And they call him Sandy Claws!


#1523 cusimano_brothers

cusimano_brothers

    Legend

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,615 posts
  • Location:Niagara Falls, ON

Posted 16 November 2012 - 08:23 AM

Here is an update on Wayne Simmonds, who decided to play temporarily in the Czech Republic, from Sportsnet.

"Mess up tomorrow, don't mess up now".

- Harry James Benson, CBE.


#1524 Nightfall

Nightfall

    My goal is to deny yours!

  • Gold Booster
  • 3,771 posts
  • Location:Grand Rapids

Posted 16 November 2012 - 08:27 AM

A two week break? No problem.

Hell, take a two year break. Screw this league.
Christopher Brian Dudek
My Domain

#1525 Jedi

Jedi

    Christmastime is buzzing in my skull...

  • HoF Booster Mod
  • 9,827 posts
  • Location:Dallas

Posted 16 November 2012 - 08:51 AM

TSN's Scott Cullen with the "elephant-in-the-room" tweet...

I'm fascinated by NHL assertion that they have moved in the players' direction -- I was unaware of any player gains in CBA proposals.


"And the best, I must confess, I have saved for the last, for the ruler of this Christmas land,

is a fearsome king with a deep mighty voice, least, that's what I've come to understand.

And I've also heard it told, that he's something to behold, like a lobster, huge and red!

When he sets out to slay with his rain gear on, carting bulging sacks with his big great arms, that is so I've heard it said.

And on a dark cold night, under full moon light, he flies into a fog like a vulture in the sky!

And they call him Sandy Claws!


#1526 Nightfall

Nightfall

    My goal is to deny yours!

  • Gold Booster
  • 3,771 posts
  • Location:Grand Rapids

Posted 16 November 2012 - 09:36 AM

TSN's Scott Cullen with the "elephant-in-the-room" tweet...

Lets put it this way....

If the shoe was on the other foot, and the players were making 43% while the owners were making 57%, how many people would be crying foul if the players went on strike in an attempt to get an even split of revenues? The ownership in that case would not be gaining anything either.

Edited by Nightfall, 16 November 2012 - 09:36 AM.

Christopher Brian Dudek
My Domain

#1527 drwscc

drwscc

    I drink your milkshake...I drink it up!!!!

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,289 posts
  • Location:Austin, TX

Posted 16 November 2012 - 09:58 AM

Lets put it this way....

If the shoe was on the other foot, and the players were making 43% while the owners were making 57%, how many people would be crying foul if the players went on strike in an attempt to get an even split of revenues? The ownership in that case would not be gaining anything either.


You take your logic elsewhere, good sir. There is no place for that here. This is a "Buttman is eeeeevil hurr hurr" board.
Faith is to believe what you do not yet see; the reward for this faith is to see what you believe.

I went to a doctor the other day, and all he did was suck blood out of my neck. Never go see Dr. Acula
- Mitch Hedberg

#1528 Jedi

Jedi

    Christmastime is buzzing in my skull...

  • HoF Booster Mod
  • 9,827 posts
  • Location:Dallas

Posted 16 November 2012 - 10:21 AM

Lets put it this way....

If the shoe was on the other foot, and the players were making 43% while the owners were making 57%, how many people would be crying foul if the players went on strike in an attempt to get an even split of revenues? The ownership in that case would not be gaining anything either.


You seem to be forgetting that the NHL's first offer (see July 13) was that exact same percentage, that you just "what-if'd"...

The NHL makes its first proposal to the NHL Players' Association in Toronto. The NHL wants the players' share of hockey-related revenue (HRR) reduced from 57 percent to 43 percent and include new definitions for HRR.


But what you're overlooking is the fact that the League is not only demanding that the players take less a share of the HRR pie (to say nothing of the fact that they're refusing to honor contracts already signed), they're also trying to impose massive restrictions on the player's contracting rights and free agency availability. The League is in a "take-take-take" mode, and has not been willing to concede anything to the PA as an incentive.

For instance, in 2004/05 the PA accepted a hard salary cap (which was a clear "win" for owners), and accepted that cap be tied to revenues (again, something the League insisted on), they still had things they could take away from the process as a "win" for their side. Most notably, the reduction in UFA age (was 31, dropped to 28 or 7 yrs) and the increase in the minimum salary (was $185,000, rose to $500,000 by deal's end).

So, it begs the "elephant in the room" question. What exactly has the League offered to the players as incentive? The right to come back and play again? If negotiation is a "give and take" process, then the League is only halfway involved in the process.

"And the best, I must confess, I have saved for the last, for the ruler of this Christmas land,

is a fearsome king with a deep mighty voice, least, that's what I've come to understand.

And I've also heard it told, that he's something to behold, like a lobster, huge and red!

When he sets out to slay with his rain gear on, carting bulging sacks with his big great arms, that is so I've heard it said.

And on a dark cold night, under full moon light, he flies into a fog like a vulture in the sky!

And they call him Sandy Claws!


#1529 haroldsnepsts

haroldsnepsts

    "Classy"

  • HoF Booster Mod
  • 17,299 posts

Posted 16 November 2012 - 10:27 AM

TSN's Scott Cullen with the "elephant-in-the-room" tweet...

The NHL is using the faulty logic that they've conceded a lot because they moved off their insane first proposal. I guess Daly would've preferred that Fehr's first counter was to remove salary cap. Then the players could've made the large concession of agreeing to the cap all over again. It would also likely mean we'd lose hockey for the whole year.

Instead, they started by accepting that the cap was here to stay. The players have moved from 57% to 50%. That doesn't count?

It's also not a coincidence that the league started with the ridiculous 43% demand, so 50/50 would actually seem like a concession by the NHL (a falsehood that people seem to be falling for) instead of what it actually is, the players making the large concession.

The league's concessions involve reducing the absurd demands they began with. The players concessions involve actually giving up millions of dollars.

#1530 haroldsnepsts

haroldsnepsts

    "Classy"

  • HoF Booster Mod
  • 17,299 posts

Posted 16 November 2012 - 10:36 AM

But what you're overlooking is the fact that the League is not only demanding that the players take less a share of the HRR pie (to say nothing of the fact that they're refusing to honor contracts already signed), they're also trying to impose massive restrictions on the player's contracting rights and free agency availability. The League is in a "take-take-take" mode, and has not been willing to concede anything to the PA as an incentive.

For instance, in 2004/05 the PA accepted a hard salary cap (which was a clear "win" for owners), and accepted that cap be tied to revenues (again, something the League insisted on), they still had things they could take away from the process as a "win" for their side. Most notably, the reduction in UFA age (was 31, dropped to 28 or 7 yrs) and the increase in the minimum salary (was $185,000, rose to $500,000 by deal's end).

So, it begs the "elephant in the room" question. What exactly has the League offered to the players as incentive? The right to come back and play again? If negotiation is a "give and take" process, then the League is only halfway involved in the process.

Exactly.

Every single element of every proposal is worse for the players. The league should hang tough on the back-diving restrictions because they prevent cap circumvention, but the other contract restrictions don't affect how much owners will spend on players. It only affects the allocation of those dollars among a franchise.

The league may have gotten less than the absurd amount they wanted at the start, but so far they're the ones who've gained everything in this negotiation. To claim they union doesn't want to concede anything is idiotic.

#1531 Jedi

Jedi

    Christmastime is buzzing in my skull...

  • HoF Booster Mod
  • 9,827 posts
  • Location:Dallas

Posted 16 November 2012 - 10:46 AM

The league's concessions involve reducing the absurd demands they began with. The players concessions involve actually giving up millions of dollars.


The league may have gotten less than the absurd amount they wanted at the start, but so far they're the ones who've gained everything in this negotiation. To claim they union doesn't want to concede anything is idiotic.


QFE, over and over again. Whether the PA accepted 43%, or 46%, or eventually accepts 50%, it's still a massive gain for the League, and a massive concession for the PA.

To be fair, I think the owners' desire to have a larger share of HRR is perfectly reasonable, which inevitably means the players will have to take a smaller share. And the owners are also perfectly reasonable to place restrictions on contracts to eliminate the "back-diving" practices. However, the league needs to soften it's demands to make something equitable for the players too.

"And the best, I must confess, I have saved for the last, for the ruler of this Christmas land,

is a fearsome king with a deep mighty voice, least, that's what I've come to understand.

And I've also heard it told, that he's something to behold, like a lobster, huge and red!

When he sets out to slay with his rain gear on, carting bulging sacks with his big great arms, that is so I've heard it said.

And on a dark cold night, under full moon light, he flies into a fog like a vulture in the sky!

And they call him Sandy Claws!


#1532 Nightfall

Nightfall

    My goal is to deny yours!

  • Gold Booster
  • 3,771 posts
  • Location:Grand Rapids

Posted 16 November 2012 - 11:14 AM

But what you're overlooking is the fact that the League is not only demanding that the players take less a share of the HRR pie (to say nothing of the fact that they're refusing to honor contracts already signed), they're also trying to impose massive restrictions on the player's contracting rights and free agency availability. The League is in a "take-take-take" mode, and has not been willing to concede anything to the PA as an incentive.

For instance, in 2004/05 the PA accepted a hard salary cap (which was a clear "win" for owners), and accepted that cap be tied to revenues (again, something the League insisted on), they still had things they could take away from the process as a "win" for their side. Most notably, the reduction in UFA age (was 31, dropped to 28 or 7 yrs) and the increase in the minimum salary (was $185,000, rose to $500,000 by deal's end).

So, it begs the "elephant in the room" question. What exactly has the League offered to the players as incentive? The right to come back and play again? If negotiation is a "give and take" process, then the League is only halfway involved in the process.

As I said before, if the shoe was on the other foot and the roles were reversed, the players would be take-take-taking while the owners would be giving. It is a very limited two way street when one side has a far superior deal than the other. Now, how much the side getting the weaker deal should give up, that is up for debate. When the players were raping the owners for 76% of the revenues, and they had to take a giant rollback, people were on the sides of the owners for the most part. I guess 57% is enough to swing things back in favor of players.
Christopher Brian Dudek
My Domain

#1533 haroldsnepsts

haroldsnepsts

    "Classy"

  • HoF Booster Mod
  • 17,299 posts

Posted 16 November 2012 - 11:29 AM

QFE, over and over again. Whether the PA accepted 43%, or 46%, or eventually accepts 50%, it's still a massive gain for the League, and a massive concession for the PA.

To be fair, I think the owners' desire to have a larger share of HRR is perfectly reasonable, which inevitably means the players will have to take a smaller share. And the owners are also perfectly reasonable to place restrictions on contracts to eliminate the "back-diving" practices. However, the league needs to soften it's demands to make something equitable for the players too.

Exactly.

My main point was the absurdity of Daly claiming the union doesn't want to negotiate or make concessions. That's all they've done.

One of the only "concessions" where the league moved towards the union's proposal was regarding revenue sharing, which doesn't really even help the players. That helps the league and works toward addressing the biggest problem in the league, the disparity between franchises.

All the fans and the media have a pretty good guess as to what the final CBA will look like and the two sides aren't that far away. It's what makes this whole thing so idiotic.

#1534 Johnz96

Johnz96

    1st Line All-Star

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,423 posts

Posted 16 November 2012 - 12:39 PM

The NHL has lost a lot more games due to labor disputes (all lockouts during Bettman's regime) than any other league

During bettman's reign as commissioner not including the current lockout the NHL has lost 1698 games due to lockouts

MLB has lost 948 games due to labor disputes and the NBA has lost 704 games while the NFL hasn't lost any.

Athletes are athletes, there are hundreds of them. Hockey players are not much different than athletes in other sports

The biggest difference between the NHL and other sports leagues is that the other ones aren't run by Bettman

Edited by Johnz96, 16 November 2012 - 12:40 PM.


#1535 vladdy16

vladdy16

    The rest are neophytes.

  • HoF Booster Mod
  • 6,280 posts

Posted 16 November 2012 - 12:42 PM

Whatever side of the fence they're on, I know many, many fans that aren't all that interested in watching this year. This is going to cost them much more than they're aware of. We may be the greatest fans on earth, but we're not suckers.
Can't wait to read the "Phoenix: I still think it's a hockey market" chapter of Gary Bettman's autobiography. I'm guessing it's going to be chapter 11.

- mjlegend 3/9/2011

#1536 chances14

chances14

    The Magician

  • Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 675 posts
  • Location:Michigan, USA

Posted 16 November 2012 - 12:43 PM

The League is in a "take-take-take" mode, and has not been willing to concede anything to the PA as an incentive.


that's not true. while the nhl hasn't given anything up as far as economics or contracting issues go

here are some of the things the players have reportedly gotten

-artificially inflate the salary cap in Year 1 so teams don’t have to trade or release players;

- trade player salary and cap charges in trades (this is something both teams and players have wanted);

-eliminate re-entry waivers

- Increase revenue sharing with further increases as revenues grow, and the top grossing teams making the biggest contributions (revenue sharing is something Don Fehr is passionate about; wants it so the teams that really need assistance are assisted)

- Introduction of appeal rights to a neutral third-party arbitrator in cases involving on- and- off-ice discipline (player-proposed wish)

-Joint NHL/NHLPA Health and Safety Committee with equal representation by the league and union;

-Establishment of a “standard of care” and “primary allegiance” obligations between the team medical staff and players (this is directly due to the tragic Derek Boogaard situation that remains ongoing);

-Offseason rehab activities would no longer be required in the team’s home city;

-Players have access to second medical opinions at the club expense;

- Ice time restrictions and days off during training camp;

-Improved facility standards in visiting locker rooms;

-Ice condition improvements and standards;

-More player friendly rules for parent-son trips, teams would have to pay for parents travel and lodging to first-ever games, other milestones;

-Different standards for rent and mortgage reimbursements from teams;

-increased access to tickets for visiting players and also a game ticket policy that minimizes the tax impact on players;

-And also, the league has agreed to consider a player proposal for single rooms for all players on the road, which would be thousands of extra dollars spent on travel. Typically, players share rooms on the road unless you’re a longstanding player (600 games), or in a lot of cases, goaltenders

http://www.startribu.../177160641.html

now obviously these aren't as big as the revenue split or contracting issues but the notion that the owners haven't conceded a single thing yet is misinformed. i do agree that the owners contracting demands are outrageous and they should be willing to give on those

Whatever side of the fence they're on, I know many, many fans that aren't all that interested in watching this year. This is going to cost them much more than they're aware of. We may be the greatest fans on earth, but we're not suckers.

neither side couldn't care less about the game of hockey as long as they get their money

Edited by chances14, 16 November 2012 - 12:44 PM.


#1537 cusimano_brothers

cusimano_brothers

    Legend

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,615 posts
  • Location:Niagara Falls, ON

Posted 16 November 2012 - 12:48 PM

In Bettmanland , Uncle Gary must think that the players back to work and getting paid is all the "incentive" they need.

"Mess up tomorrow, don't mess up now".

- Harry James Benson, CBE.


#1538 chances14

chances14

    The Magician

  • Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 675 posts
  • Location:Michigan, USA

Posted 16 November 2012 - 01:05 PM

http://www.sportsnet...wn_nhl_spector/

When the plan has gone so awry -- when history now tells us that so many of Bettman’s signature moves have strayed -- we’re not surprised that the NHL has no "ideas" left. It was, of course, a series of NHL "ideas" that got us here in the first place.

How about tagging extra years on those old CBA’s with Bob Goodenow, so that the NHL could get the players’ permission to take part in the Olympic Games? It still baffles that 85 per cent of the NHLPA membership would receive a 12-day mid-season vacation window, and the other 15 per cent would be furnished with a spot in the Olympics -- a life-changing experience -- yet it was the league that had to give concessions to make that happen, not the players

Bad call, Gary.

Decisions like that are what led to the players raking in 75 per cent of league revenues. They resulted in salary escalation that would pay hockey players like Major League Baseball players, without the underlying economy to justify it
.


The players are equally at fault. They and their agents -- in orchestration with the NHLPA -- never missed a chance to sign a ridiculous deal, to prey on some GM whose job was on the line if he didn’t improve his roster to win some games, to drive salaries through the roof.

Today, players are paying the costs for 25 years of doing what was good for themselves, yet not good for the game as a whole. They drove the NHL’s economy into the ground. Like driving your car too hard, eventually it stops, and there’s a big bill involved in getting it started again.



#1539 cusimano_brothers

cusimano_brothers

    Legend

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,615 posts
  • Location:Niagara Falls, ON

Posted 16 November 2012 - 01:13 PM

I haven't read the "O" word, with regards to these negotiations.

"Mess up tomorrow, don't mess up now".

- Harry James Benson, CBE.


#1540 BottleOfSmoke

BottleOfSmoke

    Hall-of-Famer

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,548 posts
  • Location:It's so hot in the P

Posted 16 November 2012 - 01:40 PM

@AnsarKhanMLive: Red Wings' Ian White lashes out at Gary Bettman, calling him 'an idiot' who's damaged the game | http://t.co/gJ1ojxIv http://t.co/7uhIO5jw

I think Ian White posts on LGW.

LGWsig_zpsa75c5d1e.jpg

 

Just look at how he hangs his sunglasses from his banana hammock in that last pic.  This guyf****** rules. --kipwinger






Similar Topics Collapse

  Topic Forum Started By Stats Last Post Info

0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users