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[Retired] Official Lockout Thread


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#1621 Dabura

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 11:32 AM

P.S.

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#1622 Buppy

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 12:28 PM

Man, the level of vinegary Summer's Eve in this thread is astounding. Acting like Gary Bettman (Buttman Midget hurr hurr hurr) is the sole cause of this lockout is so stupid as to border on mental disability. Even Ryan Lambert admits that Bettman has been good for the game, and hasn't ruined everything,

Is Bettman (Troll Dwarf idiot cancer durr durr durr) doing a great job in selling the lockout? No. Is the Players' Bettman doing a good job with the PR war? Absolutely, as evidenced by all the paint chips eating responses in this thread, and others around the boards. Everyone is white knighting the players side like they are absolutely blameless in this whole mess. Just like the BCTWGMIU is completely blameless for the death of Hostess.

At this point, I really fail to care about the NHL anymore. Both sides have demonstrated multiple times that they are petulant children who don't want to share their Legos. If neither side is willing to budge, there's no way to move forward. BOTH sides are at fault. Keep on believing that if the owners would just fire Bettman and bring on Bob Goodenow that everything would just move along nicely.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that Bettman is the sole culprit in this lockout. But three lockouts in three tries does rather strongly suggest that he's not the right guy to be leading negotiations.

If you disagree, maybe you could try presenting an intelligent counter-argument. Or just keep calling people retarded. Whatever.

#1623 drwscc

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 12:39 PM

I don't think anyone is suggesting that Bettman is the sole culprit in this lockout. But three lockouts in three tries does rather strongly suggest that he's not the right guy to be leading negotiations.

If you disagree, maybe you could try presenting an intelligent counter-argument. Or just keep calling people retarded. Whatever.


Uhhh..I think I did. But feel free to ignore the rest. Just like your homie Fehr. Like someone pointed out before, if Bettman doesn't budge, he's being an obstructionist ass. If Fehr refuses to negotiate, he's standing firm.

Fehr and Bettman are BOTH the wrong people to be negotiating. They're having a pissing contest because Fehr thinks he has something to prove. He's gonna beat the Bettman! Yeah! Who cares if it's bad for the game, and hockey may never recover. As long as Fehr appears to win. If Fehr does end up winning, guess what? Expect another lockout at the end of the next CBA. If the owners end up taking a bath, you can forget about an easy CBA negotiation the next time.
Faith is to believe what you do not yet see; the reward for this faith is to see what you believe.

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#1624 roboginger

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 12:46 PM

I think you need to go back through and re-read what I have been posting. I hate both sides and have said it many time in this thread. I'm just sick and tired of the crying from some on here about bettman and saying it is all his fault and the nhl.

Then you have players being stupid and unprofessional running their mouths and it's ok some how to most of you but it's not ok for the league or anyone that has any part of the league to say anything....talk about pro 1 sided. And again so you know..I hate both sides and think both sides are money hungry idiots and I'm getting to the point where I couldn't care any less if we have hockey or not this season. Both sides are killing this sport that I loved but I'm not some fool who thinks it's all 1 mans fault that in all honesty is only doing what the owners tell him to do.


Every comment from you i have seen from you has been pro-NHL.

But I agree everyone involved in this crap needs to stop being a greedy ****** and get it done.

#1625 hillbillywingsfan

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 01:11 PM

Every comment from you i have seen from you has been pro-NHL.

But I agree everyone involved in this crap needs to stop being a greedy ****** and get it done.

Most of my comments have been pointing out the fact that it's not all poo poo head bettmans fault.
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#1626 kipwinger

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 01:44 PM

For the record, I don't think the players are blameless. And I don't think Bettman is the sole cause of this lockout. And I don't think axing Bettman will change much in the way of owner-player relations.

I do think this is an owners' lockout. I do think this is a "Hi, we want to screw you over in every possible way, and to as great an extent as possible. Please sign here, here, and here. Then we can all be friends again" situation - the third under Bettman's reign. And I do think 1) there's something wrong with that, 2) the blame for all this bulls*** rests more on the shoulders of the Commissioner and the owners.


I think the owners are entirely justified in wanting more than half of the HRR, given that they accrue ALL of the costs and take ALL of the financial risks. The players are entirely justified in wanting their ALREADY NEGOTIATED contracts honored, and not wanting unnecessary regulation of future contracts. Unfortunately, in negotations where millions of dollars are on the line, getting to a reasonable position takes time, and the final compromise has to be fought for (by both sides). I find it especially distrubing that anyone (not that you're doing this) would suggest that this is some sort of pissing contest between Fehr and Bettman. Neither of them do a single thing that they aren't mandated to do by their respective constituencies.

All of the vehemence, hyperbole, etc. by the fans is the result of our third party view of all of this. It's easy to point a finger at one (or both) sides of this because in reality its not OUR millions of dollars on the line. It's always easy to tell someone else what they ought to do when the tough decisions aren't ours to make, and the consequences aren't ours to accept.

Who cares who's right or wrong? I don't. I just want to watch Datsyuk turn Ryan Suter inside out.

GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#1627 cusimano_brothers

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 02:17 PM

I know that shop.nhl.com sells all kinds of merchandise with the names of players on the back.
I don't recall ever seeing an "Official Gary Bettman Three-piece Suit" being for sale.

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#1628 StormJH1

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 02:31 PM

I checked out of this (depressing as all hell, yet informative) thread but assume that everybody is caught up to speed on the Michael Russo article indicating that the NHL has offered no better than a tiered reduction where their HRR share only gets down to 52.5%, and that's in the FIFTH year of the CBA. Primary blame still goes to the NHL, in my opinion, but if the NHL was willing to compromise on the "make whole" provision and the NHLPA couldn't find a way to get to 50% after a long phase-in....well, that starts to increase my anger toward the players.

The NHLPA may still get to 50% at some point, but I'm a little sick of hearing what all the other leagues are doing with revenues percentage-wise. It's pretty safe to say that "Hockey Related Revenues" only apply to....hockey, and this league specifically. The manner in which they are calculated could be completely different than revenue calculations for other leagues, and the NHLPA has argued this very fact.

But even more than that, the idea that the players HAVE to get to 50% because that's how it's done in other leagues makes no sense to me. In what other major sport did every existing player in the league agree to a 24% salary reduction AND lose an entire year's pay due to lockout? Might not the decision to set the HRR share at 57% have been a bargaining chip to partially compensate the players for that extreme financial burden.

The counter-argument to that is "Well, fine, there were rollbacks, but what about the future?" But it wasn't just the salary rollbacks - it was the installation of an entire cap system that was also SUPPOSED to limit the amount of overall salaries paid. Had the cap not been installed (and the league continued to flourish due to the Canadian dollar, Winter Classic, etc.), don't you think the Red Wings, Bruins, Maple Leafs, and Rangers (among others) would have gotten up to $100 million payrolls?

There's no amount revenues that could have kept hockey franchises in Phoenix, Florida, Atlanta (and now Dallas and others) financially viable because they still have to fill an 18,000 seat arena and pay for players in markets that don't have any freakin' fans! EIther the "have" teams agree to tow the "have not" teams (like the NFL does with places like Jacksonville), or you have to eliminate those teams. Simply taking a bigger chunk of the pie won't fix the underlying problem.

#1629 Euro_Twins

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 03:11 PM

So you don't agree with Bettman's bargaining tactics and his my way or the highway attitude. Yet when Fehr has the same bargaining tactics and his my way or the highway attitude, you consider it as "standing strong". Yet you say that both sides are being greedy. Hrm......


That will cost a full season of hockey. Thats a high price to pay for the owners to just fire Bettman and then hire in another guy who could be worse than Bettman. After all, firing Bettman won't solve the problem of the owners. These same owners will select another leader who is similar to Bettman probably. If not the same, he will be worse.


You should get a job in the media, you could cover the CBA since you are good at misrepresenting information.

See the difference is the NHLPA has already agreed to go from 57% to 50% share of HRR. The only thing the league has given anything on are very minor issues. So yes Fehr is standing strong, so the players do not lose more than what they already have. He wants current contracts honored, and RFA length and entry level lengths to stay the same. What is so unreasonable about that after agreeing to a %12 decrease in HRR (assuming HRR definitions stay the same)

Edited by Euro_Twins, 20 November 2012 - 03:12 PM.


#1630 drwscc

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 03:27 PM

You should get a job in the media, you could cover the CBA since you are good at misrepresenting information.

See the difference is the NHLPA has already agreed to go from 57% to 50% share of HRR. The only thing the league has given anything on are very minor issues. So yes Fehr is standing strong, so the players do not lose more than what they already have. He wants current contracts honored, and RFA length and entry level lengths to stay the same. What is so unreasonable about that after agreeing to a %12 decrease in HRR (assuming HRR definitions stay the same)


As kipwinger put so elegantly above, "It's easy to point a finger at one (or both) sides of this because in reality its not OUR millions of dollars on the line. It's always easy to tell someone else what they ought to do when the tough decisions aren't ours to make, and the consequences aren't ours to accept."
Faith is to believe what you do not yet see; the reward for this faith is to see what you believe.

I went to a doctor the other day, and all he did was suck blood out of my neck. Never go see Dr. Acula
- Mitch Hedberg

#1631 Jedi

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 03:36 PM

Darren Dreger confirms the next meeting will be tomorrow morning at 10amEST.

PA confirms meeting tomorrow morning. Roughly, 10 am start.


And it looks like the NHLPA is having an internal meeting this evening, discussing strategy and presentation for tomorrow's session.

PA intends on continuing to strategize and work on its presentation tonight for tomorrows next round of CBA negotiations.


"And the best, I must confess, I have saved for the last, for the ruler of this Christmas land,

is a fearsome king with a deep mighty voice, least, that's what I've come to understand.

And I've also heard it told, that he's something to behold, like a lobster, huge and red!

When he sets out to slay with his rain gear on, carting bulging sacks with his big great arms, that is so I've heard it said.

And on a dark cold night, under full moon light, he flies into a fog like a vulture in the sky!

And they call him Sandy Claws!


#1632 sleepwalker

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 03:56 PM

Every comment from you i have seen from you has been pro-NHL.


Lol, seriously, and the you throw in the fact that he keeps trying to call out others as being one-sided, when he has been one of the most biased one-sided posters in this entire thread, its just too funny.

#1633 drwscc

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 04:19 PM

Lol, seriously, and the you throw in the fact that he keeps trying to call out others as being one-sided, when he has been one of the most biased one-sided posters in this entire thread, its just too funny.


Hurr hurr. You go, man! It couldn't possibly be because everyone, including the mods, has already covered the pants on head stupidity of "It's all Buttman cancer midget's fault. If it wasn't for Buttman, the owners would give the players 99% of HRR and they'd be playing hockey right now" Nah, couldn't be that it's already been covered, so what's the point of repeating it. Not everyone feels the need to say the same thing over and over and over, as if repetition makes it true.
Faith is to believe what you do not yet see; the reward for this faith is to see what you believe.

I went to a doctor the other day, and all he did was suck blood out of my neck. Never go see Dr. Acula
- Mitch Hedberg

#1634 sleepwalker

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 04:28 PM

Hurr hurr. You go, man! It couldn't possibly be because everyone, including the mods, has already covered the pants on head stupidity of "It's all Buttman cancer midget's fault. If it wasn't for Buttman, the owners would give the players 99% of HRR and they'd be playing hockey right now" Nah, couldn't be that it's already been covered, so what's the point of repeating it. Not everyone feels the need to say the same thing over and over and over, as if repetition makes it true.


Uhhh...did you quote the wrong post or something? What the hell does any of that have to do with my post that you quoted?

#1635 Jedi

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 04:36 PM

Everyone, please remember that this thread is for discussion of the lockout, meetings, etc. pointing out each other's posting style and viewpoints in a "gotcha" game isn't exactly staying on topic.

"And the best, I must confess, I have saved for the last, for the ruler of this Christmas land,

is a fearsome king with a deep mighty voice, least, that's what I've come to understand.

And I've also heard it told, that he's something to behold, like a lobster, huge and red!

When he sets out to slay with his rain gear on, carting bulging sacks with his big great arms, that is so I've heard it said.

And on a dark cold night, under full moon light, he flies into a fog like a vulture in the sky!

And they call him Sandy Claws!


#1636 sleepwalker

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 04:40 PM

Everyone, please remember that this thread is for discussion of the lockout, meetings, etc. pointing out each other's posting style and viewpoints in a "gotcha" game isn't exactly staying on topic.


True, true.

What I think the problem is, is certain people on BOTH sides of the arguement in this thread are completely ignoring the specifics of the actual CBA proposals and have taken either a hardline pro-league or pro-players stance based 100% on their political views regarding unions, and nothing else.

#1637 roboginger

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 05:08 PM

everyone is going to fall on one side of the other for the most part. i just wanna watch hockey :(

#1638 Buppy

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 06:21 PM

I checked out of this (depressing as all hell, yet informative) thread but assume that everybody is caught up to speed on the Michael Russo article indicating that the NHL has offered no better than a tiered reduction where their HRR share only gets down to 52.5%, and that's in the FIFTH year of the CBA. Primary blame still goes to the NHL, in my opinion, but if the NHL was willing to compromise on the "make whole" provision and the NHLPA couldn't find a way to get to 50% after a long phase-in....well, that starts to increase my anger toward the players.
...

That's something of a misrepresentation of the PA proposal. The PA does not want the actual dollar value of the players' share to go down, so their plans have, for the most part, called for de-linking the share from revenue. They want to slow the growth of their share (dollar value) so league revenue growth results in a lower percentage. Therefore, the percentage depends entirely on growth.

The current PA proposal is apparently a flat 1.75% increase in the players' share dollar value each year for five years. The Russo article you mention referenced charts from the league with estimated growth factors, and include estimated lockout damage. They anticipate a drop in revenue for the 12-13 season (obviously), then a modest recovery with the 13-14 season having slight growth over 11-12, and a more normal growth pattern in the following years.

Of course, no one can predict either growth or what the long-term fallout from the lockout will be. There are plenty of reasons to be optimistic, as well as cause for concern. Even being just a little more optimistic than the leagues' charts would get it down to 50%.

#1639 F.Michael

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 06:29 PM

I know that shop.nhl.com sells all kinds of merchandise with the names of players on the back.
I don't recall ever seeing an "Official Gary Bettman Three-piece Suit" being for sale.

:lol:

But there has been a plethora of Don Cherry wannabes.

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#1640 hillbillywingsfan

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 06:48 PM

oh my...When I say it's both sides I mean nhlpa AND bettmans fault...I don 't like either side...I don't stand closer to either side meaning I'm not going to do like "some" on here and say it's all bettmans and the owners fault . that doesn't mean that I'm all in on saying it's the nhlpa's fault either.

Edited by haroldsnepsts, 20 November 2012 - 08:10 PM.
edited to remove deleted quoted post

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