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[Retired] Official Lockout Thread


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#1741 Marty Barry

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 03:02 PM

So, if the lockout ends the entire season how do they market next year's video games? Won't they have to be the same as this year's? No new NHL stats. What about a cover? I don't remember what they did the last time.

#1742 Pskov Wings Fan

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 03:13 PM

Well...not entirely true. Most 'top' teams are in great debt. Most owners invest hundereds of millions in players, once an owner leaves...no more team.
The problem in European soccer is that the FIFA and UEFA do not have the balls to stand up to the teams with great debts.


We might be going off-topic here, but quite a few of the 'top' European soccer clubs have been in existence for more than a century. So I am not certain that "once an owner leaves...no more team" is a valid comment.
I am not sure why FIFA or UEFA have much influence about finance of soccer clubs. Unlike NHL these are governing bodies, which are not generally concerned with the business side of the game of association football. IIHF would be the hockey counterpart.

It would be interesting to compare European soccer leagues with the North American sports leagues. I do not think such things as CBA, salary cap, draft and the rests exist in soccer (excluding MLS here, I think I follows North American model).

#1743 Playmaker

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 03:58 PM

I'm not a big basketball fan, but wasn't the NBA lockout resolved soon after de-certification was granted? Or was that the NFL? In any case, I hope it happens with the NHL as well.

#1744 chances14

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 05:59 PM

We might be going off-topic here, but quite a few of the 'top' European soccer clubs have been in existence for more than a century. So I am not certain that "once an owner leaves...no more team" is a valid comment.
I am not sure why FIFA or UEFA have much influence about finance of soccer clubs. Unlike NHL these are governing bodies, which are not generally concerned with the business side of the game of association football. IIHF would be the hockey counterpart.

It would be interesting to compare European soccer leagues with the North American sports leagues. I do not think such things as CBA, salary cap, draft and the rests exist in soccer (excluding MLS here, I think I follows North American model).


honestly i don't know much about how the european leagues work.

however i did find this article dated last year in which a salary cap was discussed to help curb english soccer team debt crisis. Also, unlike the nhl, there is more than one big league in europe that is attractive to the big name players, thus creating competition. and like i said before, soccer is by far the number 1 sport across europe. people will watch teams regardless. hockey can barely keep the 4th spot in the united states.


here's another article talking about a spending cap in the premier league from august of this year

http://soccernet.esp...ap-plan?cc=5901

Edited by chances14, 25 November 2012 - 06:02 PM.


#1745 Pskov Wings Fan

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 06:25 PM

Here is a Wikipedia article about financial regulations in European soccer. Actually it is a lot more regulated than I would have expected. In France, for example,

The Direction Nationale du Contrôle de Gestion (DNCG) is responsible for administering, monitoring, and overseeing the accounts of all professional clubs to ensure that owners are being financially prudent.



#1746 chances14

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 08:01 PM

Here is a Wikipedia article about financial regulations in European soccer. Actually it is a lot more regulated than I would have expected. In France, for example,


from that article, it looks like the european soccer leagues aren't in very good shape financially across the board.

Edited by chances14, 25 November 2012 - 08:02 PM.


#1747 irishock

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 09:34 PM

? Mod Warning posts? European soccer?


Jesus Christ, the lockout is killing the community.

Edited by irishock, 25 November 2012 - 09:34 PM.

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#1748 GMRwings1983

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 09:42 PM

I've never been able to understand the European cap rules and financial fair play. All I know is that teams are buying players like crazy, while lesser clubs even in the top tier have no chance of ever challenging for the league.

I'm not sure if the NHL would want to go that route at this point.
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#1749 Barrie

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 11:52 PM

When are the players going to grow up and stop being so unprofessional?

As the lockout continues to drag on, Bolland on Friday reposted a Twitter entry that read: "can I get a RT for wanting Bettman dead?"

http://espn.go.com/chicago/nhl/story/_/id/8668147/dave-bolland-chicago-blackhawks-retweets-message-wanting-gary-bettman-dead


I hope more players speak out against Bettman. The owners should too.

So I hear the Leafs and Red Wings are against the Lockout and want to play. How many Leagues, when their two best teams wanting to play, aren't being listened to by the man they employ? If the Yankees and Red Sox don't agree with a Lockout, Selig would listen. If the Lakers and Knicks don't agree with a Lockout, David Stern would listen. If the Patriots and Packers don't agree with a Lockout, Roger Goodell would listen. Only in the NHL would a little twerp go against what his two richest teams are saying. It's one of the reasons why ESPN told the NHL "nuts to you", and NBC Sports and all the major American TV Networks will do the same thing.

The NHL is going to rot. The only way I think the Owners can save the League is if they fire Bettman. I don't see how he can continue as commish after all this, and how he could present another Stanley Cup without starting a riot in the building when fans try and get him. He'll either start a riot, or he'll hear crickets chirping because the arena will be empty.
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#1750 Barrie

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 12:01 AM

If anyone complaining about this thread right now attends a single NHL game in the next seven years, then they are fake raging in here. I know I am going to put my money where my mouth is.

No more NHL Center Ice
No more buying tickets to NHL games
No more buying NHL merchandise

The NHL, players and owners, can go f*** themselves.


If with you man. I've decided I'll only comeback if Bettman's gone. I'm not interested in following this League anymore with him in charge. He makes me so angry that it's not worth it. Baseball and Football can be my 2 main sports now, Hockey can suck it.

I've actually been seriously thinking of taking down all my Red Wings stuff I have up in my house and redecorating. It pains me to have to do that, because this team has meant so much to me the past 20 years, but I've just had enough. I'd rather just move on and not see anything Hockey related anymore.
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#1751 chances14

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 12:54 AM

I hope more players speak out against Bettman. The owners should too.

So I hear the Leafs and Red Wings are against the Lockout and want to play. How many Leagues, when their two best teams wanting to play, aren't being listened to by the man they employ? If the Yankees and Red Sox don't agree with a Lockout, Selig would listen. If the Lakers and Knicks don't agree with a Lockout, David Stern would listen. If the Patriots and Packers don't agree with a Lockout, Roger Goodell would listen. Only in the NHL would a little twerp go against what his two richest teams are saying. It's one of the reasons why ESPN told the NHL "nuts to you", and NBC Sports and all the major American TV Networks will do the same thing.

The NHL is going to rot. The only way I think the Owners can save the League is if they fire Bettman. I don't see how he can continue as commish after all this, and how he could present another Stanley Cup without starting a riot in the building when fans try and get him. He'll either start a riot, or he'll hear crickets chirping because the arena will be empty.


nobody knows for sure who is for or against this lockout. everything else has simply been speculation and assumptions.

i just find it laughable how so many people think that bettman is the sole reason for these lockouts. the owners have to love the fact that he takes all the beating and they get off without a shred of criticism.

Edited by chances14, 26 November 2012 - 12:54 AM.


#1752 Nightfall

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 09:32 AM

If with you man. I've decided I'll only comeback if Bettman's gone. I'm not interested in following this League anymore with him in charge. He makes me so angry that it's not worth it. Baseball and Football can be my 2 main sports now, Hockey can suck it.

I've actually been seriously thinking of taking down all my Red Wings stuff I have up in my house and redecorating. It pains me to have to do that, because this team has meant so much to me the past 20 years, but I've just had enough. I'd rather just move on and not see anything Hockey related anymore.

I have seen the vile hatred for Bettman, but lets be honest here.....

Bettman is not the cause of this lockout. You can point the blame to the owners who voted to lock the players out moreso than Bettman. Even if Bettman was canned, then his successor could be even worse. After all, the ownership is going to hire a pitbull, not a poodle. They are also going to hire someone to represent them. Bettman is taking a lot of flack for what the ownership wants. Yes, I believe even Mike Illitch is supporting Bettman because he is tired of seeing his profits getting thrown to teams that can't survive in these crappy markets. He is tired of seeing a $3.5 million dollar profit margin. Hell, Hudler makes more than that.

Otherwise, I won't take down my Red Wings stuff. I have been a fan of the Wings since I discovered hockey back in 1994. I just won't fund the players or the ownership by going to games or buying merchandice. The only money they will see is what I pay for in my cable bill to watch them. Hell, I will even go out of my way to watch games on streaming services because I won't buy the center ice package.

Edited by Nightfall, 26 November 2012 - 09:33 AM.

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#1753 Crashnburnluder

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 11:13 AM

I have seen the vile hatred for Bettman, but lets be honest here.....

Bettman is not the cause of this lockout. You can point the blame to the owners who voted to lock the players out moreso than Bettman. Even if Bettman was canned, then his successor could be even worse. After all, the ownership is going to hire a pitbull, not a poodle. They are also going to hire someone to represent them. Bettman is taking a lot of flack for what the ownership wants. Yes, I believe even Mike Illitch is supporting Bettman because he is tired of seeing his profits getting thrown to teams that can't survive in these crappy markets. He is tired of seeing a $3.5 million dollar profit margin. Hell, Hudler makes more than that.

Otherwise, I won't take down my Red Wings stuff. I have been a fan of the Wings since I discovered hockey back in 1994. I just won't fund the players or the ownership by going to games or buying merchandice. The only money they will see is what I pay for in my cable bill to watch them. Hell, I will even go out of my way to watch games on streaming services because I won't buy the center ice package.


I know the Owners have a lot of the blame... but Bettman was the one who adopted the rule to only need an 8 team vote instead of a majority vote. It is also in his job title to preserve the sanctity of the league and he hasn't been doing a great job at that currently because right now the NHL is the laughing stock of sports and its becoming a pissing war between both sides and every body taking pot shots at each other like 10 year olds.

It is not completely Bettmans fault, but he does have a big part in it. The reason he adopted the 8 team vote was for reasons like this, so the owners couldn't veto him again.

#1754 cusimano_brothers

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 12:54 PM

Thanks to TSN for a "Legal Look: A Primer On NHLPA Decertification".
I now have more of an understanding of what is involved.

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#1755 chances14

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 01:13 PM

I know the Owners have a lot of the blame... but Bettman was the one who adopted the rule to only need an 8 team vote instead of a majority vote. It is also in his job title to preserve the sanctity of the league and he hasn't been doing a great job at that currently because right now the NHL is the laughing stock of sports and its becoming a pissing war between both sides and every body taking pot shots at each other like 10 year olds.

It is not completely Bettmans fault, but he does have a big part in it. The reason he adopted the 8 team vote was for reasons like this, so the owners couldn't veto him again.


how did bettman go about adopting the 8 team vote?

i find it hard to believe that the owners would give any commisioner the sole power to rewrite the nhl constitution without at least half of the owners consent.

#1756 Nightfall

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 01:24 PM

I know the Owners have a lot of the blame... but Bettman was the one who adopted the rule to only need an 8 team vote instead of a majority vote. It is also in his job title to preserve the sanctity of the league and he hasn't been doing a great job at that currently because right now the NHL is the laughing stock of sports and its becoming a pissing war between both sides and every body taking pot shots at each other like 10 year olds.

It is not completely Bettmans fault, but he does have a big part in it. The reason he adopted the 8 team vote was for reasons like this, so the owners couldn't veto him again.

Did Bettman come up with the rule all on his own? No he didn't. He may have had the idea for the rule, but the owners all voted on it and ratified it. He can't just impose his rule without the owners all agreeing to it.

IMHO, the owners have about 60% of the blame in this. Bettman isn't even a "big part". Its like blaming Fehr for the stance the players are taking. Fehr can only go so far.
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#1757 StormJH1

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 01:38 PM

This issue so complicated because of the polarizing figure that is Gary Bettman. A New York lawyer running the most popular sport in Canada. 3 significant work stoppages in 18 years.

@Nightfall is partially right when he says that Bettman was not the "cause" of the lockout. Admittedly, that would be an oversimplification. I heard a TSN podcast today where one guy wondered if this isn't just the "new normal" given the fact that salaries were so constant for so many years and then shot up exponentially in the past 20 years. He wondered if the underlying problem isn't just that nobody knows "what anything is worth" in the NHL.

But I refuse to give Bettman a pass on "causing the lockout" for this reason: He DID create and stubbornly support the environment that caused this lockout to happen in the last 2 CBA's. When you a situation where you can make $3.3 billion in profits AND it can also be true that (allegedly) 18 franchises are operating in the red, you have fundamental problems. If I honestly believed that setting HRR at 50/50 and just telling the players to give a little more back would solve those problems, I would turn on the NHLPA and Fehr in a heartbeat.

But here's the thing: I have zero confidence that Phoenix, Dallas, Nashville, Florida, etc are suddenly going to become profitable simply because you cap player contracts at 5 years, lower the salary cap, and take money out of the players' share. I have zero confidence because we were told that everything in '05 CBA was necessary to save those bottom-feeder teams, and it didn't work.

The problem is the structure of the league, and the freedom of the owners to continue spending even with a hard cap in place. The deeper problem is that the league is badly overexpanded into places it doesn't belong. Phoenix is not going to start drawing 15,000 a game just because you made it so the Parises and Suters of the world only sign $40 million deals instead of $98 million ones. And when ownership in Phoenix or any other city in Bettman's "Grand Sun Belt Experiment" tried to sell to owners/cities with actual money and an interest in hockey, Bettman blocked it.

Unless you are willing to dramatically revise how revenue sharing works and commit yourself to having the Tornto-type markets carrying the struggling teams (which is obviously problematic), this will continue to happen. And Bettman (who whoever represents the owners) will continue to ask for additional money every CBA simply because they can.

#1758 Jedi

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 03:05 PM

It appears a Federal mediator is now involved in the CBA negotiations, per LeBrun...

Federal mediator now involved in NHL/NHLPA labor talks. More to come.


...and McKenzie...

NHL and NHLPA have agreed to allow U.S. federal mediators to get involved in the labor dispute.

Deputy Director Scot L. Beckenbaugh, Director of Mediation Services John Sweeney, and Commissioner Guy Serota to serve as the mediators.

Mediators work under umbrella of Federal Mediation and Conciliation Service. Let's see if some "outside" perspective makes a difference.


To me, this can be nothing but a good thing. A neutral third party who can sit both sides down, and help them see how close they really are...

Though, McKenzie is quick to inject a little bit of reality about the situation...

Mediation is not binding. It's just an objective third party trying to help process get on track. Mediators were, IIRC, used in 2004-05.


And finally, if anyone were curious, here is the official press release from the Federal Mediation and Conciliation Service...

2cwlto0.jpg

 


#1759 Nightfall

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 03:41 PM

But I refuse to give Bettman a pass on "causing the lockout" for this reason: He DID create and stubbornly support the environment that caused this lockout to happen in the last 2 CBA's. When you a situation where you can make $3.3 billion in profits AND it can also be true that (allegedly) 18 franchises are operating in the red, you have fundamental problems. If I honestly believed that setting HRR at 50/50 and just telling the players to give a little more back would solve those problems, I would turn on the NHLPA and Fehr in a heartbeat.

Just for clarification, Bettman didn't create the environment. The owners did. He did support it only because the ownership supported it. I understand why Bettman is taking the flack for this, but at the same time there are barely anyone that is able to look deeper into this situation. Yes, Mike Illitch is supporting this lockout. Why are there no fans upset at him? I guess being the mouthpiece means that they are going to take all the flack, but thats ok I suppose.

As for firing Bettman, nothing would please me more. Well, firing both Fehr and Bettman would please me the most. What I fear is Bettman's replacement. Sometimes the Devil you know is better than the Devil you don't know. That could be true in this situation as well, especiially if the owners hire in someone who is more draconian than Bettman. Same goes for Fehr, but I believe in this case both sides leaders should be fired.

It appears a Federal mediator is now involved in the CBA negotiations, per LeBrun...

Mediation is non-binding, which means that what the mediator says is just a recommendation. Non-binding mediation isn't something that has teeth in my opinion. Just like back in the last lockout, the mediator put forward some great ideas but one side or the other shot them down. It really is the same as having an informed expert that has no side that is willing to put their opinion and thoughts on the subject.
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#1760 Jedi

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 03:44 PM

Mediation is non-binding, which means that what the mediator says is just a recommendation. Non-binding mediation isn't something that has teeth in my opinion. Just like back in the last lockout, the mediator put forward some great ideas but one side or the other shot them down. It really is the same as having an informed expert that has no side that is willing to put their opinion and thoughts on the subject.


Which is exactly what the next-to-last line of my previous post points out.

That said, getting both sides together with a third party will only help the process. It might not help enough to get a deal done, but if absolutely nothing else, it will make things abundantly clear as to which side is refusing to negotiate or willing to budge on certain issues.

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