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[Retired] Official Lockout Thread


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#1801 sibiriak

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 08:46 PM

according to forbes, 13 teams are losing money

Reading this, I can't help thinking that Forbes data set is seriously flawed.
Economics 101 would teach you that the value of a financial asset is roughly proportional to the income that this asset provides, with some caveats.
If that is true, then Forbes numbers make no sense. Teams that lose money should not be worth anything,let alone $145 mil. This suggests to me that not all income that the hockey teams provde to their owners is accounted for here. There must be some creative accounting going on.
And even if we accepted these numbers, still, the league made $250 mil. in income. ($8 mil.+ per team). That suggests either expanded revenue sharing or a drastic contraction of the money losing teams are in order. Since teams that lose money are still spending more on salaries than they have to due to the cap floor, the problem is not labor costs, but irresponsible financial management.

#1802 cusimano_brothers

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 09:09 PM

Today was my annual visit to Toronto and the HHoF. Here are the highlights, in a recreated Q&A, if Uncle Gary was doing the Q:
Q: How was it?
A: Great, as always.
Q: How much did you spend that adds to the League's HRR totals?
A: Squadoosh.
Q: How does that make you feel?
A: I feel better than James Brown. I feel better now.

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#1803 chances14

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 09:39 PM

NHL AND NHLPA RESUME CBA TALKS, THIS TIME WITH MEDIATION

It's a good thing U.S. federal mediators aren't seeking to determine right and wrong while meeting with the NHL and NHL Players' Association this week.

According to sports management professor Aubrey Kent of Temple University, both sides have a valid reason to claim that they are in the right when it comes to their ongoing labour dispute.
"
For me, the whole issue comes down to perspective," Kent said Wednesday in an interview. "Players feel as though they're being bullied and strong-armed and having things taken away -- I can see that that's a legitimate perspective. Owners feel from a dollar-value perspective that the next seven years they've offered would be far more lucrative than the previous seven years were, even as good as that was.

"And if you crunch the numbers, that's actually true as well."


One reason for the gap is the clause in the proposal that stated the players' share couldn't go down from year to year -- a mechanism meant to protect them in the event revenues fall. NHLPA executive director Donald Fehr said last week that it was a good tradeoff since the players' share would drop from 57 per cent to 50 per cent in the new deal, but Kent doesn't believe the NHL would ever accept those terms.

"I know why the players would offer that, (but) in principle it doesn't seem like it's a deal that anyone in their right mind would accept -- where you get half of everything that grows and you don't take any risk on it not growing," he said.


http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=410437

#1804 Jedi

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 08:22 AM

LeBrun says both sides are meeting again today at 11am, mediators included again.

And Puck Daddy had a funny little snippet from Fehr's comments to the media about mediators (emphasis mine, for comedic value)...

Donald Fehr, on mediators: "The presence of an outsider can give you a perspective perhaps that is not immediately ascertainable when you're on the inside and that would be helpful. But I don't want to kid anybody, a mediator has no special powers, he can't order anyone to do anything, he can't say this is the contract." No special powers? I knew we should have gotten sorcerers.


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#1805 Nightfall

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 10:25 AM

LeBrun says both sides are meeting again today at 11am, mediators included again.

And Puck Daddy had a funny little snippet from Fehr's comments to the media about mediators (emphasis mine, for comedic value)...

What both sides needed to do to make this right is to agree to binding mediation. Instead, the players and owners greed will not change the outcome. The mediators will see opportunities to end the lockout, and one side or the other will squash them.
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#1806 Euro_Twins

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 11:37 AM

Report: Pittsburgh area loses $2.1 million per Penguins' game lost

http://prohockeytalk...uins-game-lost/


REPORT: GOOD! I don't like pittsburgh anyways

#1807 Jedi

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 11:47 AM

REPORT: GOOD! I don't like pittsburgh anyways

I'm sorry, but that's an incredibly crass thing to say. While it's true the Penguins would receive the majority of that money that's lost, there are other local businesses that are suffering because of the lockout. Ordinary, hardworking people that are losing money through no fault of their own. THEY are the true victims of this lockout.

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#1808 StormJH1

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 11:59 AM

Clearly there are teams that are struggling financially but the Forbes report isn't a complete or accurate financial picture. In 2004 Bettman had an extensive audit of franchises to show in irrefutable detail how many were losing money. Strange how he didn't do that this time.

There's the secondary issue of how much it's actually the players fault that these franchises aren't profitable. Unlike 2005 the real issue is the disparity of the franchises, not the un-capped costs of player salaries.


That second point is what I think the majority of people I argue with don't seem to understand. To solve a problem, your solution actually has to address the root cause of that problem. Otherwise, it's like trying to bandage on your finger to cure a headache - it doesn't make any sense.

In 2004/05, there was an idea that player salaries had gotten out of control. Even thought the fans personally identified with the players more than a bunch of suits who own and operate the teams, public sentiment was largely on the side of the owners. A lot of people, myself included, assumed that if you put a reasonable cap in place, ALL teams would have to spend more responsibly. More importantly, the disparity in budget between the "haves" and "have nots", by definition could not be more than $16 million (difference between cap floor and cap ceiling).

The new CBA really could have succeeded. But two things happened between 2005 and 2012 that really destroyed any chance for smaller markets to compete again. The first was that the revenues of the game grew, which meant that the cap increased:

Posted Image
Raise your hand if you really thought we would nearly DOUBLE the salary cap by 2012 (oh, and by the way, in the midst of a massive worldwide recession). Oh, and by the way, teams like the Detroit Red Wings, who were derisively referred to as the "Yankees" of the NHL, actually didn't spend more than the current salary cap amount before the new CBA, except for one season (2003-04). That "all-star" team that one the 2001-02 Cup with something like 11 Hall of Famers on it? Their payroll of $66 million would've fit easily into the Cap for the 2012-13 season. Of course, the problem was getting worse and worse without a Cap, and I agreed at the time that Salary Cap was necessary. Unfortunately, the implementation of that did nothing to slow the increase of salaries. It simply reset the clock for a few years, which is necessary anyway after you sit out a whole season and disillusion much of your fanbase.

The second thing that happened, of course, was the backdiving contracts and owners/GM's figuring out ways to spend more on players than the team's cap figure would seem to imply. This is significant financially because if you're handing out money to minor league stashes, bonuses, and actual payments to players larger than their cap hit would suggest, then the salary cap really isn't doing much to limit spending, which was supposed to be the whole point of this fiscal responsibility push in 2004-05 in the first place.

Long story short, the system was fundamentally flawed, and the combination of the increased cap and "cheater" contracts that payed more than they appear to led to sustained spending on players. Those problems do need to be fixed so that spending can't get out of control again.

But if you're Phoenix, or Nashville, or Dallas, or whatever...people still need to want to BUY your product, or you'll never make money like the big boys. Even worse, the CBA that is supposed to help all teams by controlling spending actually hurts franchises by putting a cap FLOOR on those teams. Many of those franchises are going to draw 10,000 to 12,000 per game whether they spend $25 million or $50 million on payroll. There just aren't enough fans to support the product long-term in those markets, and that has nothing to do with the players or how much revenue they get.

Edited by StormJH1, 29 November 2012 - 12:02 PM.


#1809 Euro_Twins

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 12:45 PM

I'm sorry, but that's an incredibly crass thing to say. While it's true the Penguins would receive the majority of that money that's lost, there are other local businesses that are suffering because of the lockout. Ordinary, hardworking people that are losing money through no fault of their own. THEY are the true victims of this lockout.


Sorry, I meant the team, the hard working people of the surrounding businesses, arena employees, and others affected by this have my sympathy.

#1810 chances14

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 01:58 PM

a couple more good articles

one by grange of sportsnet and another by kuppa of detroit news

Edited by chances14, 29 November 2012 - 01:58 PM.


#1811 F.Michael

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 02:38 PM

What both sides needed to do to make this right is to agree to binding mediation. Instead, the players and owners greed will not change the outcome. The mediators will see opportunities to end the lockout, and one side or the other will squash them.

You're probably right...I wouldn't hold my breath to see either side agree with what the mediators suggest.

'Evolution' created by Offsides

#1812 Jedi

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 03:30 PM

As expected, still not much word leaking from today's meeting, other than LeBrun tweeting that it's still going on at this time...

No news is good news, hopefully...

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#1813 Jedi

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 04:36 PM

As expected, still not much word leaking from today's meeting, other than LeBrun tweeting that it's still going on at this time...

No news is good news, hopefully...

Or not... LeBrun's now tweeting that talks are over, and there's reportedly been no progress. No more talks with mediators planned at the moment.

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#1814 Nightfall

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 04:37 PM

https://twitter.com/...262874149498880

Looks like the season is toast.

Also, LeBrun says that no mediators will be used in the negotiations. Apparently, they didn't work.

They just need to deep six the season now. Both sides can go jump off a cliff.

Edited by Nightfall, 29 November 2012 - 04:38 PM.

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#1815 BottleOfSmoke

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 04:52 PM

Absolutely disgusting.

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#1816 F.Michael

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 04:59 PM

Another prime example of how the BOG/NHLPA crap on their bread & butter - aka - the fans.

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#1817 Nightfall

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 05:09 PM

Another prime example of how the BOG/NHLPA crap on their bread & butter - aka - the fans.

Plenty of other hockey to watch. I am watching KHL streams when I can and I am going to more Griffins games. The NHL is a distant memory to me.
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#1818 frankgrimes

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 05:23 PM

The BOG ors hould I say midgets ******* can go eff off. I hope the league will never recover from that and we'll see the rise of a new one, without a workstoppage every 5 years.

This time there are no superstars in the making, no big games to be played...fans and sponsors are pissed. I highly doubt the NHL knows what they are doing. This freaking lockout is also not for the better of the game, if the great game of hockey would really coun't, there would have been a lot of different moves.

Midget will need tons of bodyguards whenever hockey is back thats for sure.

Edited by frankgrimes, 29 November 2012 - 05:25 PM.

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#1819 drwscc

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 05:58 PM

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#1820 chances14

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 06:53 PM

bettman wants to have an owners/players meeting without any of league/nhlpa leadership brass present

Sources confirm that NHL commissioner Gary Bettman is awaiting response from NHLPA executive director Donald Fehr on a proposal that owners and players have a bargaining session without any NHL or NHLPA leaders or staff in the room.


http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=410527





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