103 replies to this topic

[haroldsnepsts]

From 90-96 goal scoring was at or over 6 goals a game since then it's always been well under so Fedorov had 6 years with a lot more net to shoot at than Datsyuk has had. Best way to compare their stats would be how many times they were in the top 3, top 5, top 10 and top 20 in scoring. Because they're both great defensively (Pavel's got more Selkes) this could be a fair comparison. Fedorov also had the advantage of playing for the Wings before the salary cap.
I guess there is no way to prove if a player from one era is better than one from another (there's no way to prove it about players playing in the same era, I am sure most Penguins fans would disagree that Datsyuk is the best) but it certainly was a lot easier to score for at least 6 of Fedorov's season than it is now because they had a lot more net to shoot at. That's obvious, I thought everyone who is old enough knew that, even if you aren't old enough to have watched hockey before Bettman it is obvious by the stats

I'm old enough to have watched Steve Yzerman play his first season as captain. Like I said initially, I've seen the careers of both Fedorov and Datsyuk. And Fedorov was a more dominant player.

As for your claims about league scoring:

In 1990, Fedorov didn't play in the NHL, so that season doesn't really matter.
In 2006 scoring was 6.176 goals per game, in 2007 it was 5.89, in 2009 it was 5.83, so it hasn't always been "well under" 6 goals since then.

In 1995 scoring was 5.97 goals per game. In 2006 it was 6.17.
1997 was about equal to 2007
1998, 99, 02, 03, and 04 scoring was lower than it ever has been since the lockout.

Like I said, the years where scoring was dramatically different between their two eras is from 1991 to 1994. 4 seasons. And Fedorov spent 7 seasons of his prime playing in an era where scoring was significantly lower than anything Datsyuk has played in. These last two seasons have been approaching the two higher years of the dead puck era.

I can understand having the opinion that Datsyuk was the better player, but it doesn't mean I don't know what I'm talking about just because I disagree with you.

And more than just scoring, I'm basing it on watching them play in their respective eras. As I said earlier, Fedorov took over games in ways Datsyuk has only shown flashes of.


EDIT: another source I found about average NHL goals by season has the numbers are slightly lower for each season than what I stated but are still the same relative to each year. Everything is just adjusted slightly downward.

Edited by haroldsnepsts, 17 September 2012 - 01:49 PM.
so I hopefully sound like less of a jerk.

[akustyk]

if we're talking about best Russian during his Wings years... I think I'd also go with Fedorov, although it's nice luxury to have to chose between him and Dats.

if we're talking about best Russian player to ever play for the Wings... I don't think there many hockey players ever to have the immense talent Igor Larionov had. I might be biased but this guy was really the Big One, behind the iron courtain.

[Kira]

I suppose you could say it's apples and oranges due to the time frame they both played in, but I have to vote for Pasha. Until he came along, I can honestly say I've never seen another player who could make my jaw hit the floor with frequency. He does it with alarming consistency. He's a sight to behold. I never felt that way watching Fedorov - he left me cold.

[Johnz96]

Stats don't lie, goals per game was roughly the same or lower during Fedorov's prime years as they are now. Plus, Fedorov had ten 30+ goal seasons, two 100 pt. seasons, a Hart Trophy, and three Stanley Cups. He also won the Selke twice, and actually played defense for every team he was on. So it's not like the guy was Ovechkin during his career.

I know none of that is as legitimate as an EA sports poll or an urban dictionary entry, but it's pretty impressive none the less. Which reminds me, did I ever tell you guys about how my students once voted "The Fast and the Furious" as the greatest movie EVER made? Anyway, to sum all this up: something, something...appeal to probability...something something...psychologist's fallacy...something, something...you can't see the forest for the trees.

Stats don't lie goal scoring was much higher during Fedorov's first 6 years (when the league averaged over 6 goals a game), he scored more points in his first 6 years with the Wings than he did in the next 7 (in fact he only scored more than a point a game once after the league started averaging less than 6 goals a game),
I don't mind if you say you like Fedorov better but don't twist the facts and lie about them. That's very bettmanian of you

Edited by Johnz96, 17 September 2012 - 02:09 PM.

[kipwinger]

Stats don't lie goal scoring was much higher during Fedorov's first 6 years (when the league averaged over 6 goals a game), he scored more points in his first 6 years with the Wings than he did in the next 7 (in fact he only scored more than a point a game once after the league started averaging less than 6 goals a game),
I don't mind if you say you like Fedorov better but don't twist the facts and lie about them.

Neat story. Go ahead a remove the first FIVE (in 1995 gpg was actually lower than some of the seasons Datsyuk has played in) seasons from Fedorov's goals, assists, and points totals and he's still a more prolific scorer for the remainder of his career. Remove roughly one third of his career and pretend it never even happened and he still scored more than Datsyuk has. Leave those same seasons in, but reduce the numbers by about .50 pts per game and he's WAY out front.

I'd recommend you ready Harold's post above...twice. From 1991-1994 gpg was higher than post lockout. 1995 was lower, 96 higher, 97 the same (roughly), and 98, 99, 2002, 2003, 2004 lower than they've been in 50 years.

No matter how you cut it your argument rests on nothing. Several people have already proved your "goals against was higher during Fedorov's career" hyperbole wrong, and so you're now resting this absurd argument on the already tenuous premise that if you exclude the most productive seasons of Fedorov's career then his numbers aren't as good as Datsyuk's, which would dubious even if it were true...but alas, like most good pipe dreams, it's simply a figment of your imagination.

Edited by kipwinger, 17 September 2012 - 02:57 PM.

[Johnz96]

I'm old enough to have watched Steve Yzerman play his first season as captain. Like I said initially, I've seen the careers of both Fedorov and Datsyuk. And Fedorov was a more dominant player.

As for your claims about league scoring:

In 1990, Fedorov didn't play in the NHL, so that season doesn't really matter.
In 2006 scoring was 6.176 goals per game, in 2007 it was 5.89, in 2009 it was 5.83, so it hasn't always been "well under" 6 goals since then.

In 1995 scoring was 5.97 goals per game. In 2006 it was 6.17.
1997 was about equal to 2007
1998, 99, 02, 03, and 04 scoring was lower than it ever has been since the lockout.

Like I said, the years where scoring was dramatically different between their two eras is from 1991 to 1994. 4 seasons. And Fedorov spent 7 seasons of his prime playing in an era where scoring was significantly lower than anything Datsyuk has played in. These last two seasons have been approaching the two higher years of the dead puck era.

I can understand having the opinion that Datsyuk was the better player, but it doesn't mean I don't know what I'm talking about just because I disagree with you.

And more than just scoring, I'm basing it on watching them play in their respective eras. As I said earlier, Fedorov took over games in ways Datsyuk has only shown flashes of.


EDIT: another source I found about average NHL goals by season has the numbers are slightly lower for each season than what I stated but are still the same relative to each year. Everything is just adjusted slightly downward.

90-91 was his first season.
He got to play on 6 seasons where goals a game averaged 6 or more (his first 6 seasons), he scored more points in those 6 years (529 in 432 games) than he did in the next 7(405 in 476) with the Wings, as the goalie equipment grew goals dropped for everybody. Fedorov only had one season (out of 7 with the Wings and he was only 32 his last year with the Wings and 6 others so 1 in 13 years in which the averaged less than 6 goals a game did Fedorov average a point a game) in which he scored a point a game, when the league averaged less than 6 goals a game, Datsyuk has scored at least a point a game 5 out of his 10 seasons and the league averaged less than 6 goals a game in every one of them. Datsyuk has also been ripped off by Bettman for a whole season in his prime and going on a second.
When it comes to stats there really should be an asterisk denoting playing when bettman was commissioner and for how many years. Fedorov was fortunate enough to have played before Bettman and before all his changes were put into effect

[Johnz96]

Neat story. Go ahead a remove the first FIVE (in 1995 ppg was actually lower than some of the seasons Datsyuk has played in) seasons from Fedorov's goals, assists, and points totals and he's still a more prolific scorer for the remainder of his career. Remove roughly one third of his career and pretend it never even happened and he still scored more than Datsyuk has. Leave those same seasons in, but reduce the numbers by about .50 pts per game and he's WAY out front.

I'd recommend you ready Harold's post above...twice. From 1991-1994 ppg was higher than post lockout. 1995 was lower, 96 higher, 97 the same (roughly), and 98, 99, 2002, 2003, 2004 lower than they've been in 50 years.

No matter how you cut it your argument rests on nothing. Several people have already proved your "goals against was higher during Fedorov's career" hyperbole wrong, and so you're now resting this absurd argument on the already tenuous premise that if you exclude the most productive seasons of Fedorov's career then his numbers aren't as good as Datsyuk's, which would dubious even if it were true...but alas, like most good pipe dreams, it's simply a figment of your imagination.

First of all I don't know if you mean 94-95 or 95 -96, in either case there was a lot more scoring than any of the years datsyuk has played 94-95 5.97 (basically 6) and 95-96 6.29. the league has never averaged anywhere close to 6 goals a game since Datsyuk has been in it

[kipwinger]

90-91 was his first season.
He got to play on 6 seasons where goals a game averaged 6 or more (his first 6 seasons), he scored more points in those 6 years (529 in 432 games) than he did in the next 7(405 in 476) with the Wings, as the goalie equipment grew goals dropped for everybody. Fedorov only had one season (out of 7 with the Wings and he was only 32 his last year with the Wings and 6 others so 1 in 13 years in which the averaged less than 6 goals a game did Fedorov average a point a game) in which he scored a point a game, when the league averaged less than 6 goals a game, Datsyuk has scored at least a point a game 5 out of his 10 seasons and the league averaged less than 6 goals a game in every one of them. Datsyuk has also been ripped off by Bettman for a whole season in his prime and going on a second.
When it comes to stats there really should be an asterisk denoting playing when bettman was commissioner and for how many years. Fedorov was fortunate enough to have played before Bettman and before all his changes were put into effect

NO...HE...DIDN'T. Of his first 6 seasons 1991-1997, both 1995 and 1997 were below 6 goals per game. Go back to the link YOU provided on the last page and double check.

Actually, here's the link. THE VERY SAME ONE YOU PROVIDED ON PAGE ONE. Look at 1995 and 1997.

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=97918

Edited by kipwinger, 17 September 2012 - 02:47 PM.

[Seraph]

I suppose you could say it's apples and oranges due to the time frame they both played in, but I have to vote for Pasha. Until he came along, I can honestly say I've never seen another player who could make my jaw hit the floor with frequency. He does it with alarming consistency. He's a sight to behold. I never felt that way watching Fedorov - he left me cold.

Fedorov left you cold? Were you watching his brother or Sergei? 91 of the Red Wings was electrifying.

This isn't the best argument because Datsyuk was still developing then, but pre-lockout Datsyuk used to try to deke his way through guys and come up short. I distinctly remember thinking he had skills but was overambitious. Back then as soon as he made a move, guys were latched on and watersking. So in a way his style is more suited for the current NHL. Fedorov had finess that transcended even the clutch and grab era.

[haroldsnepsts]

First of all I don't know if you mean 94-95 or 95 -96, in either case there was a lot more scoring than any of the years datsyuk has played 94-95 5.97 (basically 6) and 95-96 6.29. the league has never averaged anywhere close to 6 goals a game since Datsyuk has been in it

You've mentioned that a couple times now and it's not true.

Datsyuk played in 2006 when the average goals per game was 6.05 or 6.17, depending on the source.

In 2009 and 2010 the average goals per game was 5.83 and 5.68. Both of those are fairly close to 6.

Also, in 98, 99, 02, 03, and especially 04, the average goals per game was lower than any season Datsyuk has played in.

You're overstating the goal scoring discrepancy between the two eras. Like I said before, the biggest years of difference were 91-94. Otherwise it's pretty much a wash.

[kipwinger]

First of all I don't know if you mean 94-95 or 95 -96, in either case there was a lot more scoring than any of the years datsyuk has played 94-95 5.97 (basically 6) and 95-96 6.29. the league has never averaged anywhere close to 6 goals a game since Datsyuk has been in it

1. I didn't realize we rounded when citing statistics, how convenient for your argument 2. Goals per game was above 6 in 2005-2006 when Datsyuk had the first of his back to back 87 pt seasons.

Edited by kipwinger, 17 September 2012 - 02:55 PM.

[Johnz96]

I'm old enough to have watched Steve Yzerman play his first season as captain. Like I said initially, I've seen the careers of both Fedorov and Datsyuk. And Fedorov was a more dominant player.

As for your claims about league scoring:

In 1990, Fedorov didn't play in the NHL, so that season doesn't really matter.
In 2006 scoring was 6.176 goals per game, in 2007 it was 5.89, in 2009 it was 5.83, so it hasn't always been "well under" 6 goals since then.

In 1995 scoring was 5.97 goals per game. In 2006 it was 6.17.
1997 was about equal to 2007
1998, 99, 02, 03, and 04 scoring was lower than it ever has been since the lockout.

Like I said, the years where scoring was dramatically different between their two eras is from 1991 to 1994. 4 seasons. And Fedorov spent 7 seasons of his prime playing in an era where scoring was significantly lower than anything Datsyuk has played in. These last two seasons have been approaching the two higher years of the dead puck era.

I can understand having the opinion that Datsyuk was the better player, but it doesn't mean I don't know what I'm talking about just because I disagree with you.

And more than just scoring, I'm basing it on watching them play in their respective eras. As I said earlier, Fedorov took over games in ways Datsyuk has only shown flashes of.


EDIT: another source I found about average NHL goals by season has the numbers are slightly lower for each season than what I stated but are still the same relative to each year. Everything is just adjusted slightly downward.

Fedorov rookie year was 90-91.
In the chart that was posted earlier in this thread it had 05-06 as 6.05 but that includes goals awarded to shoot out winning teams that weren't actually scored and counted as part of a [layer's stats.
All I was trying to say that during Fedorov seasons as a Wing there was more goal scoring because he played 6 years before the goalie equipment was allowed to get really big. If you average the league' average goals per game during Fedorov's tenure with the Wings, it would be about a goal more than the average goals scored per game during Datsyuk's NHL career. Overall it was easier to score during Fedorov's time in the NHL than it has been during Datsyuk's. If you don't believe me do the math add up the avg goals per NHL game in every year Fedorov played in with the Wings and divide it by 13 and do the same for Datsyuk and divide it by 10, I don't have to, I can tell you just by looking at it there is about 1 more goal a game while Fedorov played for the Wings.

[haroldsnepsts]

Datsyuk has also been ripped off by Bettman for a whole season in his prime and going on a second.
When it comes to stats there really should be an asterisk denoting playing when bettman was commissioner and for how many years. Fedorov was fortunate enough to have played before Bettman and before all his changes were put into effect

The bolded section I agree with. Though Fedorov missed a half season because of the lockout as well 94. Then more than half a season due to his holdout in 98.

Feds played the early part of his career in the high scoring era, but also played a good chunk of it in the clutch and grab era.

[Johnz96]

1. I didn't realize we rounded when citing statistics, how convenient for your argument 2. Goals per game was above 6 in 2005-2006 when Datsyuk had the first of his back to back 87 pt seasons.

6.05 also included goals awarded to teams for winning in a shootout. Those goals don't cont on player's stats

[haroldsnepsts]

First of all I don't know if you mean 94-95 or 95 -96, in either case there was a lot more scoring than any of the years datsyuk has played 94-95 5.97 (basically 6) and 95-96 6.29. the league has never averaged anywhere close to 6 goals a game since Datsyuk has been in it

Continuing to say this doesn't make it true.

And you've also ignored the multiple seasons Fedorov played in where scoring was much lower than the post lockout
NHL.

Here's the source I'm referring to, where goals are calculated by the goals awarded to players, not by game. So there is no inflation due to the shootout.

http://www.quanthock...erGame.php#Calc

6.05 also included goals awarded to teams for winning in a shootout. Those goals don't cont on player's stats

No it does not.

According to the source it's calculated by individual player statistics and does not include the tie breaking shootout goal.

[Johnz96]

The bolded section I agree with. Though Fedorov missed a half season because of the lockout as well 94. Then more than half a season due to his holdout in 98.

Feds played the early part of his career in the high scoring era, but also played a good chunk of it in the clutch and grab era.

Bottom line the league averaged about a goal a game more during Fedorov's career with the Wings than they did during Datsyuk's career so far.
Fedorov wasn't nearly as good without the Wings and nowhere near as productive as Datsyuk so we won't even count them and the thread is best Russian Wings anyway

[frankgrimes]

Hard question but giving the edge to Datsyuk here simple because I haven't seen a lot of Feds and with Datsyuk on the ice you know some magici s going to happen soon. I am sure Suter or was it Weber? is still having nightmares about his dangles.

[kipwinger]

6.05 also included goals awarded to teams for winning in a shootout. Those goals don't cont on player's stats

Haha, perfect. Of course you realize that shootout goals, which don't benefit Datyuk's stat line, also don't inflate Fedorov's right? It's a moot point, neither of those players stats were affected by the shoot out.

[Johnz96]

Haha, perfect. Of course you realize that shootout goals, which don't benefit Datyuk's stat line, also don't inflate Fedorov's right? It's a moot point, neither of those players stats were affected by the shoot out.

They didn't have the shootout for a lot of Fedorov's career.
If you do the math you will see that the NHL averaged almost a goal more per game during Fedorov's time with the Wings

Edited by Johnz96, 17 September 2012 - 03:22 PM.

[kipwinger]

They didn't have the shootout for a lot of Fedorov's career.
If you do the math you will see that the NHL averaged almost a goal more per game during Fedorov's time with the Wings

Ok, will do. You provide me a link which shows the number of goals scored from 1990/1991 through 2002/2003 (to determine Fedorov's stats) and another which gives the goals from 2001-2002 to 2011-2012 (to determine Datsyuk's) and I'll do the math right here.