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Rebuild or retool?


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#1 Jeff6851

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 03:10 PM

This offseason was one that every Red Wings fan was excited for and it was pretty quiet for us. While the Wild signed guys we were hoping for, we got guys like Samuelsson and Tootoo. We've lost three of our best defenseman over the past two years (Rafalski, Stuart and Lidstrom) and our stars are aging and wearing down. Could it be time to do what this franchise hasn't thought about for 20 years or is it simply that we need to just fill some holes?

Some think that even with support for our top guys that the Wings just won't be able to keep up with faster, younger and stronger teams. Some think that a few more pieces is all they need. What do you think? Trade some of our top talent (not necessarily Dats or Z, in fact, don't even consider it because it won't happen) for up and coming prospects or trade some of our top prospects for proven talent?

Personally, I wouldn't mind giving up some of our top guys for some very talented prospects, even if it means the playoff streak ends. I'd rather end the streak now and start a new one in a few years than extend this one another 2-3 until we are in a deep hole for years.
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#2 evilzyme

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 03:19 PM

we should never have to "rebuild" with this front office. our front office is amazing at development and scouting. i strictly believe we need to retool due to parity becoming so apparent. the game has changef look at tendies... you gotta be 6' minimum basically now and the standup is a lost art. butterfly and hybrids have taken over. gear has changed. moral of the story this franchise doesnt rebuild , they retool.

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#3 wings_fanatic

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 04:47 PM

How about we just start playing hockey before we come to any silly conclusions.

#4 Buppy

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 07:57 PM

... What do you think? Trade some of our top talent (not necessarily Dats or Z, in fact, don't even consider it because it won't happen) for up and coming prospects or trade some of our top prospects for proven talent?
...

No good reason to do either.

If we're talking rebuild, you have to consider moving Pav and/or Hank. Our 2nd tier is Franzen, Flip, Kronwall, maybe Jimmy...the return we'd get wouldn't make that big a difference. We'd just have more prospects and less room for potential UFAs. For Pav or Hank we could probably get a real potential stud (in addition to the top 5 pick we'd get for tanking the season).

We're in a bit of a tough spot, as we have several prospects with star potential, but who could end up being busts, or somewhere in between. By the time we really know which, our current top and 2nd-tier players will have lost much of their trade value. But that doesn't mean they'll be totally worthless and we should get out while we can. Nor that doing so necessarily means we'd be any better off in the future.

Better to just tough it out for now with what UFAs we can add and see what our current prospects will turn in to. Could be some players get made expendable, but we shouldn't go trading them until they are.

#5 luvmnger

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 09:06 PM

my take was that we needed to hit up the ole' " offer sheet on evander kane, kyle turris, etc...) and lose the draft picks.

that is a retool idea that carries water. we have lots of talent coming up from the griffins in the next 3-5 years. establishing the next core is important to do now!

the trade front is drying up, our used parts are great, but not worth much out in trade. UFA and offer sheets are the next best thing.

when was the last notable trade for the wings? Lang? seems like the other owners are done with us, so why worry about making them mad?

hell, we had to go through yzerman to get quincey...i dont think the other 29 teams are going to help us until we have 20 year olds to sell.

that will not happen unless we tank ala edmonton style.
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#6 The Axe

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 10:26 PM

The thing i dont like is everyone talking about "prospects". We need legit NHLers. Our prospects are all small and 90% of them are going to fizzle into nothingness. Nyquist has one freaking goal, and everyone thinks he's the next Datsyuk. He will more than likely be the next career 3rd line winger who score 18 points a year. Remember Tatar? How's he coming along? We need some decent draft picks so we can get some of these GOOD YOUNG players the edmontons, lightnings, and Pittsburghs have drafted over the last 10 years. We arent going to get Datsyuks or Zetterbergs in the 6th round anymore. Those days are gone. I say suck for 5 years and get high draft picks. Then give D and Z one last harrah with the kids.

#7 Ally

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 11:33 PM

I say suck for 5 years and get high draft picks. Then give D and Z one last harrah with the kids.


This is a problem since we don't HAVE Datsyuk for 5 years. We've got maybe 4 with him left, I'd rather retool a bit and be good for the rest of his career personally.

 
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#8 Jeff6851

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 06:36 PM

The thing i dont like is everyone talking about "prospects". We need legit NHLers. Our prospects are all small and 90% of them are going to fizzle into nothingness. Nyquist has one freaking goal, and everyone thinks he's the next Datsyuk. He will more than likely be the next career 3rd line winger who score 18 points a year. Remember Tatar? How's he coming along? We need some decent draft picks so we can get some of these GOOD YOUNG players the edmontons, lightnings, and Pittsburghs have drafted over the last 10 years. We arent going to get Datsyuks or Zetterbergs in the 6th round anymore. Those days are gone. I say suck for 5 years and get high draft picks. Then give D and Z one last harrah with the kids.


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#9 Dabura

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 12:10 AM

Retool.

We need...

- An elite defenseman.
- More depth on the back-end. Team-crippling injuries are the norm for us, not the exception.
- A power-forward. Too much girly Euro-skill in the top-6. And don't say Franzen.
- To get bigger up front (top and bottom 6).

Trade Quincey ("He was terrible for us, but he's gonna be awesome for us!"), a roster forward, and a pick/prospect for a high-end defenseman. Sign Corey Perry or die. Add some big mean bodies. Stop kicking tires.

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#10 The Axe

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 12:19 AM

Retool.

We need...

- An elite defenseman.
- More depth on the back-end. Team-crippling injuries are the norm for us, not the exception.
- A power-forward. Too much girly Euro-skill in the top-6. And don't say Franzen.
- To get bigger up front (top and bottom 6).

Trade Quincey ("He was terrible for us, but he's gonna be awesome for us!"), a roster forward, and a pick/prospect for a high-end defenseman. Sign Corey Perry or die. Add some big mean bodies. Stop kicking tires.


We need to trade Z or D and get a young center and a young D that can take top line duties over immediately. Thats our only hope for "retooling".

#11 joshy207

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 02:14 PM

The Wings don't have much as far as tradeable assets. Filppula is probably the most tradeable right now, because he's coming off a career-best season, but he has only one year left on his contract. Any team acquiring him would most likely want assurances that he could be signed to a new deal. Franzen's contract and lack of work ethic make him almost untradeable. Datsyuk could be moved, but at his age, you probably wouldn't get fair market value. He's still a contributor and a top 2-way forward, but is 34 and could head back to Russia when his current contract expires. Zetterberg could also be moved, but again, probably wouldn't fetch a fair return, and he has a lengthy contract. Kronwall's deal also ties him here for the long haul, and losing him (even for an equal or better replacement) would decimate Detroit's defense. The Wings will stick with Howard unless Petr Mrazek really emerges as a top-end NHL goalie in the very near future. Some of the lower-level guys could be moved if the Wings have a terrible season, which would make room for prospects.
I think this club is overdue for a big shakeup, something to eliminate the stale, comfortable feeling they sometimes seem to exude. But that will never happen under Ken Holland's watch, and I don't see Ilitch forcing him out the door anytime soon.

#12 frankgrimes

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 02:27 PM

It is so funny how it's always Hollands fault. He tried to bring in Suter and Parise, they've signed (congrats) with Minnesota. Thanks to the stupid impatient Flyers Weber will never be an UFA I am sure as hell, he would have been our plan B for next year. So which elite defenseman is left? Seabrook and Keith? Good luck getting one of these two from our arch-nemesis.

I don't know if Zetterberg would fetch much but for sure more than Datsyuk because of the age difference and the KHL fear but at some point this club will need a shakeup. We do have trade assets the question though is, are you prepared to lose Nyquist, Smith + for stopgaps?

For sure a difficult situation but Holland alongside Shero or Poile is one of the few GMs, that can and should fix this.

You need to have established prospects for a succesful retooling we don't have that, so I'd say go for a full rebuild. Yeah it sucks, but like a certain team if you suck enough this stupid league will reward you with 4 first overalls and handholding you into the SC parade ***

Edited by frankgrimes, 30 September 2012 - 02:29 PM.

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#13 joshy207

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 04:32 PM

Holland is the GM, he's the one responsible for the roster. You don't get points for trying, this is a pass/fail business. So, yeah, while he did try to sign Suter and Parise and made a trade offer for Nash, he didn't acquire any of these players.

I can't see trading Smith or Nyquist for "stopgaps"; if they were to be moved, I would think it would be as a package for a significant player (like Nash, I wouldn't be surprised if one or both were part of that offer). I think, if the Wings should falter next year, they should look at moving their more valuable, established players and go for the true youth movement. That would be the time to let the prospects sink or swim, time to see if Holland and staff are bringing the right kind of players into the organization.

#14 frankgrimes

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 05:10 PM

Holland is the GM, he's the one responsible for the roster. You don't get points for trying, this is a pass/fail business. So, yeah, while he did try to sign Suter and Parise and made a trade offer for Nash, he didn't acquire any of these players.

I can't see trading Smith or Nyquist for "stopgaps"; if they were to be moved, I would think it would be as a package for a significant player (like Nash, I wouldn't be surprised if one or both were part of that offer). I think, if the Wings should falter next year, they should look at moving their more valuable, established players and go for the true youth movement. That would be the time to let the prospects sink or swim, time to see if Holland and staff are bringing the right kind of players into the organization.


True that but you know it takes two to make a deal. Shero, Holmer failed too the latter even failed to land Weber not only that he killed our chances of getting him now and in the future.

I like your plan plus there a still elite players outthere next year (Getzi and Perry) so if we land them both and trade our more established stars for #1 D men this would be a pretty good start for a rebuild, if you ask me.

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#15 Dabura

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 05:24 PM

You know what it is? What irks me the most about this team?

It's the scoring lines.

And it's because, come the postseason (whenever it may be), they're not going to be *scoring* lines. They're going to be stifled, frustrated, underachieving lines.

Because they're going to be boxed out to the perimeter in the offensive zone. And they're going to have no answers. Again.

This'll be, like, the 90th time this very same issue has done us in. And, accordingly, everyone will say, "Well, s***. There's absolutely no gettiing around it this time: our top-6 needs teeth. Bigger, stronger, grittier, more physical. Someone to break through the box, drive the net, cause chaos, wreak havoc, shake things up."

And so we'll trade for Ray Whitney. And "Power-forwards are a rarity in this league; they're very, very hard to come by. And so, you know [ . . . ] to me, the question I have to ask myself is, Can I justify destroying this team forever [by trading a substantial number of assets] just so some jerkoffs on the interweb can sleep at night? [ . . . . ] We think Johan can be That Guy."

Edited by Dabura, 30 September 2012 - 05:25 PM.

Don't Toews me, bro!


#16 The Axe

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 05:45 PM

You know what it is? What irks me the most about this team?

It's the scoring lines.

And it's because, come the postseason (whenever it may be), they're not going to be *scoring* lines. They're going to be stifled, frustrated, underachieving lines.

Because they're going to be boxed out to the perimeter in the offensive zone. And they're going to have no answers. Again.

This'll be, like, the 90th time this very same issue has done us in. And, accordingly, everyone will say, "Well, s***. There's absolutely no gettiing around it this time: our top-6 needs teeth. Bigger, stronger, grittier, more physical. Someone to break through the box, drive the net, cause chaos, wreak havoc, shake things up."

And so we'll trade for Ray Whitney. And "Power-forwards are a rarity in this league; they're very, very hard to come by. And so, you know [ . . . ] to me, the question I have to ask myself is, Can I justify destroying this team forever [by trading a substantial number of assets] just so some jerkoffs on the interweb can sleep at night? [ . . . . ] We think Johan can be That Guy."


Basically, way too many Euros.

#17 frankgrimes

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 06:00 PM

You know what it is? What irks me the most about this team?

It's the scoring lines.

And it's because, come the postseason (whenever it may be), they're not going to be *scoring* lines. They're going to be stifled, frustrated, underachieving lines.

Because they're going to be boxed out to the perimeter in the offensive zone. And they're going to have no answers. Again.

This'll be, like, the 90th time this very same issue has done us in. And, accordingly, everyone will say, "Well, s***. There's absolutely no gettiing around it this time: our top-6 needs teeth. Bigger, stronger, grittier, more physical. Someone to break through the box, drive the net, cause chaos, wreak havoc, shake things up."

And so we'll trade for Ray Whitney. And "Power-forwards are a rarity in this league; they're very, very hard to come by. And so, you know [ . . . ] to me, the question I have to ask myself is, Can I justify destroying this team forever [by trading a substantial number of assets] just so some jerkoffs on the interweb can sleep at night? [ . . . . ] We think Johan can be That Guy."


While I agree who is that guy? For years the Wings haven't signed enforcers and there were chances to do so MacIntyre, Scott, McGrattan to name a few.

This team needs:
Someone to run the powerplay, cause havoc, fight and a stud number one D man.

But patience is key here the transistion from a puck possession to a more nasty style is a longterm process. Hopefully Kenny has a plan B ready and personally I believe he does he is the best GM in business so never bet against him *gg*

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Edited by frankgrimes, 30 September 2012 - 06:01 PM.

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#18 Dabura

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Posted 01 October 2012 - 10:04 AM

I'm not talking about enforcers. I'm talking about premier scoring-line power-forwards, e.g. Bobby Ryan, Corey Perry, Wayne Simmonds, Milan Lucic.

Our blue line is not where it needs to be. And that bothers me. But I'd give it a fighting chance in the postseason.

Our scoring lines, on the other hand - I know their chances in the playoffs.

Because I've seen the future. It's in the past. (Fwooosh, plot twist!)

Edited by Dabura, 01 October 2012 - 11:22 AM.

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#19 Dabura

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Posted 01 October 2012 - 10:20 AM

It's the Shanahan factor.

We were soft, always getting pushed around. All the skill in the world (and all the regular-season success) meant nothing against the Devils and Avalanche in the playoffs.

So we ponied up for a power-forward. And we all know how that went.

The key was, it wasn't just Shanahan. It wasn't a one-man thing. I mean, yeah, he was a wrecking ball for us, and it was awesome. But, more than that, it's the way our game changed.

Before Shanny, we could only hurt in one way. Teams got wise, realized, "Hey, all we have to do is shut that s*** down. Then they just fold."

It's the same way today, really. All we have is our skill (especially up front, on the scoring lines). I've said this before and I'll say it again. Are we superb defensively? Can we play lights-out lockdown D? No, even with Lidstrom. Are we especially big? Are we really young? Are we fast? Is our PP especially lethal? Is our penalty-kill ruthless? Can Howard steal half a dozen playoff games for us?

Don't Toews me, bro!


#20 RedWingsDad

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Posted 01 October 2012 - 10:39 AM

...We arent going to get Datsyuks or Zetterbergs in the 6th round anymore. Those days are gone...


I am curious as to what you believe started 'those days' and what you think it was that changed to make them go away? Seems just a improbable now to draft a late round stud as it was when we did it last...

Edited by RedWingsDad, 01 October 2012 - 10:42 AM.

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